---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/18/15: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:43 AM - Anything 'unique' about incorporating EarthX? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 09:14 AM - Re: electrical system planning (Ryan Brown) 3. 10:06 AM - Re: electrical system planning (user9253) 4. 03:32 PM - Re: electrical system planning (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 05:06 PM - The legacy "6-inch rule" (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 05:13 PM - Re: electrical system planning (Justin Jones) 7. 06:12 PM - Re: electrical system planning (William Mills) 8. 09:10 PM - Re: electrical system planning (Bill Watson) 9. 09:24 PM - Re: electrical system planning (don van santen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Anything 'unique' about incorporating EarthX? >When using a LR3C-14 regulator and SB1B-14 regulator in a Z-12 with >an EarthX battery, what is the closest we can have the two >regulators set at without the two fighting for the load? > >EarthX would like their battery charged between 13.8 and 14.6. I >was thinking that the customer could set the LR3C at 14.6 and the >SB1B at 13.8. Would this work? Not necessary. A STANDBY system is not intended to charge batteries . . . only support the bus such that what ever energy is in the battery is not taxed. The open circuit terminal voltage for an EarthX is 13.3v give or take. So set the SB1 for 13.5, the LR3 for 14.5 and all will be right with the universe. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning From: Ryan Brown Thanks. I agree pitot heat does seem optional for the type of flying I plan on doing. I'd much rather just stay away from ice than try to fly through it. So Z12 is what I was leaning towards. But I wonder what's the purpose of having the endurance bus if I have a 20 amp standby alternator? In alternator out conditions I can just keep the master on, and run just about anything I want. Why not just have an alternate feed switch for the master bus in case the master switch or battery contactor fails? On Aug 17, 2015 7:41 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > A t 11:29 PM 8/16/2015, you wrote: > > Thanks Bob. > The 5A figures are the estimates I got from the manufacturer for average > consumption. I haven't measured it myself. The breaker size is 10A. > > > When you get this airplane flying, I'd REALLY > like to get some data off it that describes > ENERGY measurements . . . but 5A probably > works for now. > > > I filled out a spreadsheet with the load analysis for each stage here:=C3 =82 > https://goo.gl/0FPFIQ > I'm not entirely sure I have everything assigned to the right bus. > > I estimate the plane will hold 5.5 hours of fuel, so I guess that's what > my endurance goal should be. > > > No guessing here . . . that's a number YOU pick > based on how you intend to use the airplane. If > you plan on frequent departures from airports > often clagged in and surrounded by mountains, then > the idea of endurance to carry you to demonstrably > lower-risk haven is a part of solid reasoning. But > if that comfortable termination of flight is > never more than say 2 hours away, then designing > and maintained that level of endurance is not > unreasonable. > > The main thing is to know what the endurance numbers > are, preventative maintenance to insure those > numbers and risks go down markedly. > > That's over 70 amp hours just to keep the engine running, so it seems a > backup alternator is a better bet than batteries. > > > Bingo! > > A second engine driven power source is ALWAYS the > best cost-weight-performance alternative to ANY > chemical system. > > > One question I have is if my endurance goal should be 5.5 hours with pito t > heat on. I don't plan on tons of ifr flight, and I kind of doubt my brain > could handle 5 hours of instrument flight. So it seems like lower enduran ce > for ifr cruise could be acceptable. > > > Probably so . . . > > > If I do want to keep the heater on with the backup alternator I need a > little more than 20 amps. I'm a little confused looking at the alternator s > here. The SD-20 is described as a 20/30A alternator. What does that mean. I > saw some mention that the vacuum pad on a continental spins faster, does > that mean it's 30A on a continental and 20A on a lycoming? > > > I am not sure of the details . . . I've not had occasion > to touch the phycics of that product in about 20 > years but I do understand that under presently > demonstrated conditions, its output can be that > high. > > The plane power FS14 is just listed as 30A, so I assume it can actually > put out 30A on a lycoming. > > > Pitot heat was never a really good idea on light > aircraft . . . yeah, it MAY have saved the bacon > for a hand-full of pilots in years gone by but > far more airplanes belabored with ice have gone down > in spite of knowing exactly what their airspeed > was before they hit the rocks. > > Having 'little chippers' to deal with some forms > of ice (heated windshield patches, boots, pitot > heat) have offered too many pilots a false sense > of capability to deal with mother nature's vagaries. > > Modern weather observation and prediction systems > are so capable that go-no go decision to launch > is far wiser than any notion of being able to 'deal > with a little ice' . . . same thing with those > little yellow, orange and red areas on the radar . . . > good reasons to just stay on the ground or take > another route. > > My preference for conducting the FMEA says > keeping the tube warm is at the bottom of the > list with respect to other appliances on board. > Just for grins, noodle through the plan-c for dealing > with loss of airspeed indication. What do you KNOW > about handling qualities, changes of trim and > power that speak to impending stall? If that > airspeed value becomes suspect for what you believe > is high-probability of ice, I'll suggest that > plans to seek warmer environs far outweighs > any value of knowing exactly what your airspeed > unless you think that climbing is the path to > salvation . . . which is very seldom the case. > > IAS as a warning for impending stall is > based on a CLEAN wing. I got a really big > lesson in fouled aerodynamics when a landing > in Hutchinson KS ended with the airplane plopping > down hard in the flare while yours truly was > patting himself on the butt for having kept > the needles centered for over fifteen minutes > in the clouds, outbound through procedure turns > and then all the way back to the threshold. > > My instructor was grinning ear to ear and said, > "Okay Nuckolls . . . while you were glued to the > glass, your wings were taking on new shapes with > unpredictable performance. None of that C-172- > full-stall-flare stuff in instrument conditions. > Fly it like a Grumman . . . carrier landings are > called for unless you are CERTAIN that your wings > are golden." > > You need to make up your own mind but it seems > to me that a Z-12 system with a 15 a.h. SVLA > battery would provide a comfortable reduction > in risks . . . especially if you consider pitot > heat to be more cosmetic than practical. > > Bob . . . > > * > =========== www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:06:50 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: electrical system planning From: "user9253" > Why not just have an alternate feed switch for the master bus in case the master switch or battery contactor fails? Use a DPDT switch wired so that when the alternate feed in turned on, the starter circuit will be disabled. Not having that feature will risk burning up the alternate feed switch while starting the engine with the master contactor inadvertently shut off. Joe -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=446116#446116 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:32:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning At 11:12 AM 8/18/2015, you wrote: >Thanks. I agree pitot heat does seem optional for the type of flying >I plan on doing. I'd much rather just stay away from ice than try to >fly through it. > >So Z12 is what I was leaning towards. But I wonder what's the >purpose of having the endurance bus if I have a 20 amp standby >alternator? In alternator out conditions I can just keep the master >on, and run just about anything I want. Why not just have an >alternate feed switch for the master bus in case the master switch >or battery contactor fails? there are dozens of variations on a theme . . . Z-12 is Z-11 with the addition of a standby alternator that auto-switches when fitted with the SB-1 regulator that does not give up any of the risk management features of Z-11. You may choose to have avionics busses and associated master switches. Extra batteries, or any number of variations. If you don't see a need for the e-bus and want to leave it off, by all means. If you have an alternative for dealing with a contactor failure, that's okay too. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:31 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: The legacy "6-inch rule" At 04:51 PM 8/18/2015, you wrote: >Bob, > >On drawing 001-510, the Alternator ANL fuse and 2amp fuse are noted >as to be located 6" or less from the starter contactor. Why is >this? Are there any concerns to extending that length? If the >length can be extended, by how much could one extend it? There is a legacy rule-of-thumb in TC aircraft that says it's okay to 'sacrifice' as much as 6" of wire in an unprotected hard-fault. A number of devices got hooked to Cessna busses back in the 60-70 time frame with no specific protection for wires because they were close. i.e. the at-risk wire was 6" or less. In honor of that rule-of-thumb, we try to put circuit protection as close as practical to the source of energy that's going to burn the wire. Given that 99.99+ percent of all circuit protection in airplanes goes the lifetime of the vehicle without having been called upon to protect wires, then the 'risk' for going beyond the 6" rule is vanishingly small . . . Also, suggest you look into stocking the mini-anl style limiters. MUCH less expensive, much more compact. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:57 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning All of Bob's Z diagrams are phenomenal and do the job well. When deciding on the diagram to use, keep in mind the more batteries and more complexity, th e more weight you will add to your small aircraft. I'm sure anything you choose will suit you well and you will be happy about y our decision. I fly in remote Alaska and chose the Z13/8 (with a B&C 410H http://www.bandc .biz/alternator20ampshomebuilt1.aspx ) and am happy with it. The EFII system uses surprisingly small amperage when it's running, and when you wire the Z 13/8 to the EFII system you have redundancy and reliability with 2 alternato rs and a battery. The 410h alternator provides plenty of amperage to run the full EFII system. I wired my system, and set procedures with the ability to shut the master sw itch off, allowing the engine to continue to run (dual ECUs). I don't think I will ever have to do this, but it is nice to NOT have a master switch that w ill shut the engine off. I also used milspec lever-lock switches for all of the EFII components to pr ohibit inadvertent actuation. I am willing to share any pictures, part numbers, or drawings to anyone inte rested. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Bob Nuckolls for his knowledg e, patience, time, and willingness to help and teach us. Experimental aviat ion as a whole would not be as safe or the same without you. Justin > On Aug 18, 2015, at 18:30, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 11:12 AM 8/18/2015, you wrote: > >> Thanks. I agree pitot heat does seem optional for the type of flying I pl an on doing. I'd much rather just stay away from ice than try to fly through it. >> >> So Z12 is what I was leaning towards. But I wonder what's the purpose of h aving the endurance bus if I have a 20 amp standby alternator? In alternator out conditions I can just keep the master on, and run just about anything I want. Why not just have an alternate feed switch for the master bus in case the master switch or battery contactor fails? > > there are dozens of variations on a theme . . . > > Z-12 is Z-11 with the addition of a standby > alternator that auto-switches when fitted with > the SB-1 regulator that does not give up > any of the risk management features of Z-11. > > You may choose to have avionics busses and > associated master switches. Extra batteries, > or any number of variations. If you don't see > a need for the e-bus and want to leave it off, > by all means. If you have an alternative for > dealing with a contactor failure, that's okay > too. > > > > Bob . . . > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:42 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning From: William Mills SnVzdGluIC0KClRoZSBjb21wbGltZW50YXJ5IGZpbmlzaCBpcyByaWdodCBvbiAoYXMgaXMgdGhl IHJlc3QpLgoKVGhhbmsgeW91IEJvYiAtCgpCaWxsClNGIGJheSBhcmVhCkFFQyBzZW1pbmFyIEtM VksgKDE5OTg/KQpEbyBub3QgYXJjaGl2ZQoKClNlbnQgdmlhIHRoZSBTYW1zdW5nIEdhbGF4eSBO b3Rlwq4gSUksIGFuIEFUJlQgNEcgTFRFIHNtYXJ0cGhvbmUKCjxkaXY+LS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2lu YWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0tLS0tLTwvZGl2PjxkaXY+RnJvbTogSnVzdGluIEpvbmVzIDxqbWpvbmVz MjAwMEBtaW5kc3ByaW5nLmNvbT4gPC9kaXY+PGRpdj5EYXRlOjA4LzE4LzIwMTUgIDU6MTIgUE0g IChHTVQtMDg6MDApIDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+VG86IGFlcm9lbGVjdHJpYy1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5j b20gPC9kaXY+PGRpdj5TdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3Q6IGVsZWN0cmljYWwg c3lzdGVtIHBsYW5uaW5nIDwvZGl2PjxkaXY+CjwvZGl2PkFsbCBvZiBCb2IncyBaIGRpYWdyYW1z IGFyZSBwaGVub21lbmFsIGFuZCBkbyB0aGUgam9iIHdlbGwuIFdoZW4gZGVjaWRpbmcgb24gdGhl IGRpYWdyYW0gdG8gdXNlLCBrZWVwIGluIG1pbmQgdGhlIG1vcmUgYmF0dGVyaWVzIGFuZCBtb3Jl IGNvbXBsZXhpdHksIHRoZSBtb3JlIHdlaWdodCB5b3Ugd2lsbCBhZGQgdG8geW91ciBzbWFsbCBh aXJjcmFmdC4gCgpJJ20gc3VyZSBhbnl0aGluZyB5b3UgY2hvb3NlIHdpbGwgc3VpdCB5b3Ugd2Vs bCBhbmQgeW91IHdpbGwgYmUgaGFwcHkgYWJvdXQgeW91ciBkZWNpc2lvbi4gCgpJIGZseSBpbiBy ZW1vdGUgQWxhc2thIGFuZCBjaG9zZSB0aGUgWjEzLzggKHdpdGggYSBCJkMgNDEwSCBodHRwOi8v d3d3LmJhbmRjLmJpei9hbHRlcm5hdG9yMjBhbXBzaG9tZWJ1aWx0MS5hc3B4ICkgYW5kIGFtIGhh cHB5IHdpdGggaXQuIFRoZSBFRklJIHN5c3RlbSB1c2VzIHN1cnByaXNpbmdseSBzbWFsbCBhbXBl cmFnZSB3aGVuIGl0J3MgcnVubmluZywgYW5kIHdoZW4geW91IHdpcmUgdGhlIFoxMy84IHRvIHRo ZSBFRklJIHN5c3RlbSB5b3UgaGF2ZSByZWR1bmRhbmN5IGFuZCByZWxpYWJpbGl0eSB3aXRoIDIg YWx0ZXJuYXRvcnMgYW5kIGEgYmF0dGVyeS4gVGhlIDQxMGggYWx0ZXJuYXRvciBwcm92aWRlcyBw bGVudHkgb2YgYW1wZXJhZ2UgdG8gcnVuIHRoZSBmdWxsIEVGSUkgc3lzdGVtLiAKCkkgd2lyZWQg bXkgc3lzdGVtLCBhbmQgc2V0IHByb2NlZHVyZXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgYWJpbGl0eSB0byBzaHV0IHRo ZSBtYXN0ZXIgc3dpdGNoIG9mZiwgYWxsb3dpbmcgdGhlIGVuZ2luZSB0byBjb250aW51ZSB0byBy dW4gKGR1YWwgRUNVcykuIEkgZG9uJ3QgdGhpbmsgSSB3aWxsIGV2ZXIgaGF2ZSB0byBkbyB0aGlz LCBidXQgaXQgaXMgbmljZSB0byBOT1QgaGF2ZSBhIG1hc3RlciBzd2l0Y2ggdGhhdCB3aWxsIHNo dXQgdGhlIGVuZ2luZSBvZmYuIAoKSSBhbHNvIHVzZWQgbWlsc3BlYyBsZXZlci1sb2NrIHN3aXRj aGVzIGZvciBhbGwgb2YgdGhlIEVGSUkgY29tcG9uZW50cyB0byBwcm9oaWJpdCBpbmFkdmVydGVu dCBhY3R1YXRpb24uIAoKSSBhbSB3aWxsaW5nIHRvIHNoYXJlIGFueSBwaWN0dXJlcywgcGFydCBu dW1iZXJzLCBvciBkcmF3aW5ncyB0byBhbnlvbmUgaW50ZXJlc3RlZC4gCgpJIHdvdWxkIGxpa2Ug dG8gdGFrZSB0aGlzIG9wcG9ydHVuaXR5IHRvIHRoYW5rIEJvYiBOdWNrb2xscyBmb3IgaGlzIGtu b3dsZWRnZSwgcGF0aWVuY2UsIHRpbWUsIGFuZCB3aWxsaW5nbmVzcyB0byBoZWxwIGFuZCB0ZWFj aCB1cy4gIEV4cGVyaW1lbnRhbCBhdmlhdGlvbiBhcyBhIHdob2xlIHdvdWxkIG5vdCBiZSBhcyBz YWZlIG9yIHRoZSBzYW1lIHdpdGhvdXQgeW91LiAKCkp1c3RpbgoKCgogCgpPbiBBdWcgMTgsIDIw MTUsIGF0IDE4OjMwLCBSb2JlcnQgTC4gTnVja29sbHMsIElJSSA8bnVja29sbHMuYm9iQGFlcm9l bGVjdHJpYy5jb20+IHdyb3RlOgoKQXQgMTE6MTIgQU0gOC8xOC8yMDE1LCB5b3Ugd3JvdGU6CgpU aGFua3MuIEkgYWdyZWUgcGl0b3QgaGVhdCBkb2VzIHNlZW0gb3B0aW9uYWwgZm9yIHRoZSB0eXBl IG9mIGZseWluZyBJIHBsYW4gb24gZG9pbmcuIEknZCBtdWNoIHJhdGhlciBqdXN0IHN0YXkgYXdh eSBmcm9tIGljZSB0aGFuIHRyeSB0byBmbHkgdGhyb3VnaCBpdC4KClNvIFoxMiBpcyB3aGF0IEkg d2FzIGxlYW5pbmcgdG93YXJkcy4gQnV0IEkgd29uZGVyIHdoYXQncyB0aGUgcHVycG9zZSBvZiBo YXZpbmcgdGhlIGVuZHVyYW5jZSBidXMgaWYgSSBoYXZlIGEgMjAgYW1wIHN0YW5kYnkgYWx0ZXJu YXRvcj8gSW4gYWx0ZXJuYXRvciBvdXQgY29uZGl0aW9ucyBJIGNhbiBqdXN0IGtlZXAgdGhlIG1h c3RlciBvbiwgYW5kIHJ1biBqdXN0IGFib3V0IGFueXRoaW5nIEkgd2FudC4gV2h5IG5vdCBqdXN0 IGhhdmUgYW4gYWx0ZXJuYXRlIGZlZWQgc3dpdGNoIGZvciB0aGUgbWFzdGVyIGJ1cyBpbiBjYXNl IHRoZSBtYXN0ZXIgc3dpdGNoIG9yIGJhdHRlcnkgY29udGFjdG9yIGZhaWxzPwoKICB0aGVyZSBh cmUgZG96ZW5zIG9mIHZhcmlhdGlvbnMgb24gYSB0aGVtZSAuIC4gLgoKICBaLTEyIGlzIFotMTEg d2l0aCB0aGUgYWRkaXRpb24gb2YgYSBzdGFuZGJ5CiAgYWx0ZXJuYXRvciB0aGF0IGF1dG8tc3dp dGNoZXMgd2hlbiBmaXR0ZWQgd2l0aAogIHRoZSBTQi0xIHJlZ3VsYXRvciB0aGF0IGRvZXMgbm90 IGdpdmUgdXAKICBhbnkgb2YgdGhlIHJpc2sgbWFuYWdlbWVudCBmZWF0dXJlcyBvZiBaLTExLgoK ICBZb3UgbWF5IGNob29zZSB0byBoYXZlIGF2aW9uaWNzIGJ1c3NlcyBhbmQKICBhc3NvY2lhdGVk IG1hc3RlciBzd2l0Y2hlcy4gRXh0cmEgYmF0dGVyaWVzLAogIG9yIGFueSBudW1iZXIgb2YgdmFy aWF0aW9ucy4gSWYgeW91IGRvbid0IHNlZQogIGEgbmVlZCBmb3IgdGhlIGUtYnVzIGFuZCB3YW50 IHRvIGxlYXZlIGl0IG9mZiwKICBieSBhbGwgbWVhbnMuIElmIHlvdSBoYXZlIGFuIGFsdGVybmF0 aXZlIGZvcgogIGRlYWxpbmcgd2l0aCBhIGNvbnRhY3RvciBmYWlsdXJlLCB0aGF0J3Mgb2theQog IHRvby4KICAgIAoKCiAgQm9iIC4gLiAuCgoKCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09CnN0Ij5odHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vTmF2aWdhdG9yP0Flcm9FbGVjdHJp Yy1MaXN0Cj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09CmNzLmNvbQo9PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQptYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbgo9 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQoKCgpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQpfLT0gICAgICAgICAg LSBUaGUgQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3QgRW1haWwgRm9ydW0gLQpfLT0gVXNlIHRoZSBNYXRyb25p Y3MgTGlzdCBGZWF0dXJlcyBOYXZpZ2F0b3IgdG8gYnJvd3NlCl8tPSB0aGUgbWFueSBMaXN0IHV0 aWxpdGllcyBzdWNoIGFzIExpc3QgVW4vU3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLApfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBTZWFyY2gg JiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkgQnJvd3NlLCBDaGF0LCBGQVEsCl8tPSBQaG90b3NoYXJlLCBhbmQg bXVjaCBtdWNoIG1vcmU6Cl8tPQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tL05h dmlnYXRvcj9BZXJvRWxlY3RyaWMtTGlzdApfLT0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgLSBN QVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtCl8tPSBTYW1lIGdyZWF0IGNvbnRlbnQgYWxzbyBhdmFpbGFi bGUgdmlhIHRoZSBXZWIgRm9ydW1zIQpfLT0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMubWF0cm9u aWNzLmNvbQpfLT0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgIC0gTGlzdCBDb250cmlidXRpb24gV2Vi IFNpdGUgLQpfLT0gIFRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3IgeW91ciBnZW5lcm91cyBzdXBwb3J0IQpfLT0gICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtTWF0dCBEcmFsbGUsIExpc3QgQWRtaW4uCl8tPSAg IC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cgo ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:10:48 PM PST US From: Bill Watson Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning Yes it is - Thanks Bob! Bill "incl the Kitchen Sink" Watson On 8/18/2015 9:11 PM, William Mills wrote: > Justin - > > The complimentary finish is right on (as is the rest). > > Thank you Bob - > > Bill > SF bay area > AEC seminar KLVK (1998?) > Do not archive > > > Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Note II, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Justin Jones > Date:08/18/2015 5:12 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning > > All of Bob's Z diagrams are phenomenal and do the job well. When > deciding on the diagram to use, keep in mind the more batteries and > more complexity, the more weight you will add to your small aircraft. > > I'm sure anything you choose will suit you well and you will be happy > about your decision. > > I fly in remote Alaska and chose the Z13/8 (with a B&C 410H > http://www.bandc.biz/alternator20ampshomebuilt1.aspx ) and am happy > with it. The EFII system uses surprisingly small amperage when it's > running, and when you wire the Z13/8 to the EFII system you have > redundancy and reliability with 2 alternators and a battery. The 410h > alternator provides plenty of amperage to run the full EFII system. > > I wired my system, and set procedures with the ability to shut the > master switch off, allowing the engine to continue to run (dual ECUs). > I don't think I will ever have to do this, but it is nice to NOT have > a master switch that will shut the engine off. > > I also used milspec lever-lock switches for all of the EFII components > to prohibit inadvertent actuation. > > I am willing to share any pictures, part numbers, or drawings to > anyone interested. > > I would like to take this opportunity to thank Bob Nuckolls for his > knowledge, patience, time, and willingness to help and teach us. > Experimental aviation as a whole would not be as safe or the same > without you. > > Justin > > > On Aug 18, 2015, at 18:30, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > wrote: > >> At 11:12 AM 8/18/2015, you wrote: >> >>> Thanks. I agree pitot heat does seem optional for the type of flying >>> I plan on doing. I'd much rather just stay away from ice than try to >>> fly through it. >>> >>> So Z12 is what I was leaning towards. But I wonder what's the >>> purpose of having the endurance bus if I have a 20 amp standby >>> alternator? In alternator out conditions I can just keep the master >>> on, and run just about anything I want. Why not just have an >>> alternate feed switch for the master bus in case the master switch >>> or battery contactor fails? >> >> there are dozens of variations on a theme . . . >> >> Z-12 is Z-11 with the addition of a standby >> alternator that auto-switches when fitted with >> the SB-1 regulator that does not give up >> any of the risk management features of Z-11. >> >> You may choose to have avionics busses and >> associated master switches. Extra batteries, >> or any number of variations. If you don't see >> a need for the e-bus and want to leave it off, >> by all means. If you have an alternative for >> dealing with a contactor failure, that's okay >> too. >> >> >> >> Bob . . . >> >> * >> >> ================================== >> st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ================================== >> cs.com >> ================================== >> matronics.com/contribution >> ================================== >> >> * > * > > > * > ~,%4M4}r{ (8^W.+- > fZ+e,z^1kxWhn0azfb+bz.r.+-R *mbj! > '60j@@h!jrr- > 0kx&%ykm-&j',r5h I^rp4N4X@E9-I&z > j(lVj^Ykym~'hm~'o.+- &*'Y.+:W@vhj~m > 'o{k-0kx&'o > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: electrical system planning From: don van santen The battery contactor pulls nearly a full amp. Also it is very easy to shed unneeded load by shutting the main down and going with the "E" bus. On Aug 18, 2015 9:20 AM, "Ryan Brown" wrote: > Thanks. I agree pitot heat does seem optional for the type of flying I > plan on doing. I'd much rather just stay away from ice than try to fly > through it. > > So Z12 is what I was leaning towards. But I wonder what's the purpose of > having the endurance bus if I have a 20 amp standby alternator? In > alternator out conditions I can just keep the master on, and run just abo ut > anything I want. Why not just have an alternate feed switch for the maste r > bus in case the master switch or battery contactor fails? > On Aug 17, 2015 7:41 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> A t 11:29 PM 8/16/2015, you wrote: >> >> Thanks Bob. >> The 5A figures are the estimates I got from the manufacturer for average >> consumption. I haven't measured it myself. The breaker size is 10A. >> >> >> >> When you get this airplane flying, I'd REALLY >> like to get some data off it that describes >> ENERGY measurements . . . but 5A probably >> works for now. >> >> >> I filled out a spreadsheet with the load analysis for each stage here: =C3=82 >> https://goo.gl/0FPFIQ >> I'm not entirely sure I have everything assigned to the right bus. >> >> I estimate the plane will hold 5.5 hours of fuel, so I guess that's what >> my endurance goal should be. >> >> >> No guessing here . . . that's a number YOU pick >> based on how you intend to use the airplane. If >> you plan on frequent departures from airports >> often clagged in and surrounded by mountains, then >> the idea of endurance to carry you to demonstrably >> lower-risk haven is a part of solid reasoning. But >> if that comfortable termination of flight is >> never more than say 2 hours away, then designing >> and maintained that level of endurance is not >> unreasonable. >> >> The main thing is to know what the endurance numbers >> are, preventative maintenance to insure those >> numbers and risks go down markedly. >> >> That's over 70 amp hours just to keep the engine running, so it seems a >> backup alternator is a better bet than batteries. >> >> >> Bingo! >> >> A second engine driven power source is ALWAYS the >> best cost-weight-performance alternative to ANY >> chemical system. >> >> >> One question I have is if my endurance goal should be 5.5 hours with >> pitot heat on. I don't plan on tons of ifr flight, and I kind of doubt m y >> brain could handle 5 hours of instrument flight. So it seems like lower >> endurance for ifr cruise could be acceptable. >> >> >> Probably so . . . >> >> >> If I do want to keep the heater on with the backup alternator I need a >> little more than 20 amps. I'm a little confused looking at the alternato rs >> here. The SD-20 is described as a 20/30A alternator. What does that mean . I >> saw some mention that the vacuum pad on a continental spins faster, does >> that mean it's 30A on a continental and 20A on a lycoming? >> >> >> I am not sure of the details . . . I've not had occasion >> to touch the phycics of that product in about 20 >> years but I do understand that under presently >> demonstrated conditions, its output can be that >> high. >> >> The plane power FS14 is just listed as 30A, so I assume it can actually >> put out 30A on a lycoming. >> >> >> Pitot heat was never a really good idea on light >> aircraft . . . yeah, it MAY have saved the bacon >> for a hand-full of pilots in years gone by but >> far more airplanes belabored with ice have gone down >> in spite of knowing exactly what their airspeed >> was before they hit the rocks. >> >> Having 'little chippers' to deal with some forms >> of ice (heated windshield patches, boots, pitot >> heat) have offered too many pilots a false sense >> of capability to deal with mother nature's vagaries. >> >> Modern weather observation and prediction systems >> are so capable that go-no go decision to launch >> is far wiser than any notion of being able to 'deal >> with a little ice' . . . same thing with those >> little yellow, orange and red areas on the radar . . . >> good reasons to just stay on the ground or take >> another route. >> >> My preference for conducting the FMEA says >> keeping the tube warm is at the bottom of the >> list with respect to other appliances on board. >> Just for grins, noodle through the plan-c for dealing >> with loss of airspeed indication. What do you KNOW >> about handling qualities, changes of trim and >> power that speak to impending stall? If that >> airspeed value becomes suspect for what you believe >> is high-probability of ice, I'll suggest that >> plans to seek warmer environs far outweighs >> any value of knowing exactly what your airspeed >> unless you think that climbing is the path to >> salvation . . . which is very seldom the case. >> >> IAS as a warning for impending stall is >> based on a CLEAN wing. I got a really big >> lesson in fouled aerodynamics when a landing >> in Hutchinson KS ended with the airplane plopping >> down hard in the flare while yours truly was >> patting himself on the butt for having kept >> the needles centered for over fifteen minutes >> in the clouds, outbound through procedure turns >> and then all the way back to the threshold. >> >> My instructor was grinning ear to ear and said, >> "Okay Nuckolls . . . while you were glued to the >> glass, your wings were taking on new shapes with >> unpredictable performance. None of that C-172- >> full-stall-flare stuff in instrument conditions. >> Fly it like a Grumman . . . carrier landings are >> called for unless you are CERTAIN that your wings >> are golden." >> >> You need to make up your own mind but it seems >> to me that a Z-12 system with a 15 a.h. SVLA >> battery would provide a comfortable reduction >> in risks . . . especially if you consider pitot >> heat to be more cosmetic than practical. >> >> Bob . . . >> >> * >> >> ist" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-L ist >> tp://forums.matronics.com >> _blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> >> * >> >> * > =========== www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List> =========== =========== om/contribution> =========== > > * > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.