Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 01:10 AM - PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During November! (Matt Dralle)
1. 05:01 AM - Where are fuses required? (donjohnston)
2. 05:14 AM - LiFePO4 endurance battery? (Jan de Jong)
3. 06:01 AM - Re: Where are fuses required? (C&K)
4. 06:30 AM - Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? (plevyakh)
5. 06:49 AM - Re: Technique for DSub Pin / data breakout for RPM issue (plevyakh)
6. 07:24 AM - Re: Where are fuses required? (user9253)
7. 07:44 AM - Re: Where are fuses required? (donjohnston)
8. 08:37 AM - Re: Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:43 AM - Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? (Peter Pengilly)
10. 08:58 AM - Re: Re: Where are fuses required? (Bill Putney)
11. 09:22 AM - help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Bob Verwey)
12. 09:45 AM - help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Bob Verwey)
13. 10:43 AM - Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 11:17 AM - Re: Where are fuses required? (user9253)
15. 11:21 AM - Re: Where are fuses required? (user9253)
16. 11:21 AM - Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Jan de Jong)
17. 11:32 AM - Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Charlie England)
18. 11:54 AM - Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (John Tipton)
19. 12:40 PM - Re: Corrupted messages (Dj Merrill)
20. 02:11 PM - Re: Corrupted messages (Jan de Jong)
21. 02:26 PM - Re: Corrupted messages (Jim Baker)
22. 03:50 PM - Fw: Re: Corrupted messages (Jim Baker)
23. 04:56 PM - Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
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| Subject: | PLEASE READ - Matronics Email List Fund Raiser During |
November!
Dear Listers,
Each November I hold a PBS-like fund raiser to support the continued operation
and upgrade of the Email List and Fourm Services at Matronics. It's solely through
the Contributions of List members (you) that these Matronics Lists are possible.
You have probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows on any of the Matronics Lists or related web sites such as the Forums site http://forums.matronics.com , Wiki site http://wiki.matronics.com , or other related pages such as the List Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search , List Browse http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse , etc. This is because I believe in a List experience that is completely about the sport we all enjoy - namely Airplanes and not about annoying advertisements.
During the month of November I will be sending out List messages every couple of
days reminding everyone that the Fund Raiser is underway. I ask for your patience
and understanding during the Fund Raiser and throughout these regular messages.
The Fund Raiser is only financial support mechanism I have to pay all
of the bills associated with running these lists. YOUR personal Contribution
counts!
This year we have a really HUGE and TERRIFIC line up of free gifts to go along
with the various Contribution levels. In fact, there are over 30 different gifts
to choose from - more than we've ever had before! There's something for everyone,
to be sure. Most all of these gifts have been provided by some of the
vary members and vendors that you'll find on the Matronics Lists and they have
been either donated or provided at substantially discounted rates.
This year, these generous members include:
Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore http://www.buildersbooks.com
These are very generous guys and I encourage you to visit their respective web
sites. Each one offers a unique and excellent aviation-related product line.
I would like publicly to thank Andy, Bob, Corbin, George, and Jon their generous
support of the Lists again this year!!
Please make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods including
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you the opportunity to select one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying
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To make your Contribution, please visit the secure web site:
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I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous financial AND moral
support over the years!
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
RV-4/RV-6/RV-8 Builder/Rebuilder/Pilot
Message 1
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| Subject: | Where are fuses required? |
I'm putting in a small battery to keep the EFIS & AHRS up prior to and during engine
starts. It will also be able to power the EFIS & AHRS in the unlikely event
that that primary electrical system should have some type catastrophic failure.
But my question is about fuses. Since the backup battery has a switch that would
remove the fuses in the fuse block from the circuit, I'm thinking that another
fuse would be required between the battery and the switch (see attached).
Is this a common (or best) practice?
Thanks,
Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448517#448517
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_system__2015_10_22_702.jpg
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| Subject: | LiFePO4 endurance battery? |
LiFePO4 starting batteries contain relatively little energy.
It may be useful to look at the possibilty of an AUX battery for
endurance (and plan C backup, and possibly voltage hold-up during cranking).
Main task: sit until needed - possibly never.
Searching "standby" and "backup" with safety as the main interest I found:
http://www.pbq.nl/media/datasheet/pbq-lithium-lifepo4-batteries-product-overview.pdf
The text is not quite native English.
Made in China (Enerise?).
Examples:
http://www.pbqbatteries.com/media/datasheet/pbq-life-5-12.pdf
http://www.pbqbatteries.com/media/datasheet/pbq-life-15-12.pdf
Note: thermal runaway protection additive in the electrolyte
Note: low maximum charging current
Note: unknown self-discharge rate (depends on BMS); probably reasonable
(a 3Ah size exists)
Note: not for free:
http://www.advitek.nl/merken/pbq/pbq-life-5---12-lithium-lifepo4-12v-5ah-lithium-ac.html
http://www.advitek.nl/merken/pbq/pbq-lf-15---12-lithium-lifepo4-12v-15ah-lithium-ac.html
Note: supposedly long life
Note: I did not easily find a USA equivalent
Jan de Jong
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
In the event of a short in the wiring or the device under power you want
to prevent the battery from burning something. If the battery is large
enough that a short will flow enough current to burn the wiring then yes
a fuse would be appropriate. If it was a battery that might itself
overheat with a shorted wire (lithium?) then a fuse would also be
appropriate.
Ken
On 01/11/2015 8:00 AM, donjohnston wrote:
>
> I'm putting in a small battery to keep the EFIS & AHRS up prior to and during
engine starts. It will also be able to power the EFIS & AHRS in the unlikely
event that that primary electrical system should have some type catastrophic failure.
>
> But my question is about fuses. Since the backup battery has a switch that would
remove the fuses in the fuse block from the circuit, I'm thinking that another
fuse would be required between the battery and the switch (see attached).
>
> Is this a common (or best) practice?
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448517#448517
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/electrical_system__2015_10_22_702.jpg
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? |
Jan,
I installed an EarthX ETX680 in my GlaStar about two months ago. I have roughly
40 flight hours on the battery. I'm very pleased with my installation so
far. Engine starting is much improved over my Odyssey PC680. Engine start improvements
are a result of 1) moving the battery forward from an AFT tail cone
location to on the Firewall (gained 4.5V of starter voltage), and 2) the increased
cranking amps of the ETX680.
I'm using Bob's Z13-8 architecture as my base but with some differences (e.g.,
Dual Lightspeed Ignition system).
I have a Main Bus, Endurance Bus, and Battery Bus. After the installation I did
a Endurance Bus "load test"...by simulating failed primary alternator (B&C
Specialty 60 amp), and failed backup alternator (B&C SD-8 (8amp)) and running
on only the ETX680 battery.
I had a voltmeter on the battery bus with battery bus voltage at 13.2V at beginning
of test, and 12.87V at the end of test...End of Test established when my
Instrument Panel "Blue LED Battery Warning light" came on my panel.
My endurance bus load was 7.4amps. Outside Air Temp was 75deg F.
The ETX680 battery ran for 63 minutes until the LED Battery light came on. The
LED battery warning light is run by the EarthX Battery Management System (BMS).
One function of the BMS is that a flashing LED light indicates that one or
more of the cells are discharged greater than 80%. More on the BMS can be found
in the EarthX manual.
Since I have the SD-8 backup alternator...I won't need to push the ETX680 battery
this hard...but it's good to know I have roughly an hour of flight time before
my warning light comes on (Battery Ops Alone). I plan to re-run this test
at each Annual inspection to maintain awareness of it's capacity as I use up
life cycles.
I did reset my B&C Specialty Voltage regulator trip point for recharge to 14.5V
as recommended by Bob K. in a previous thread of Lithium batteries. I'm also
running cooling hoses to the battery to keep it cool since it's installed FWF
in the engine compartment.
I highly recommend Bob Knuckoll's battery series in KitPlanes magazine...these
articles are worth the price of annual subscription alone!
Howard (GlaStar N19HL approaching 100 hrs flight time).
--------
Howard Plevyak
GlaStar / Cincinnati, Ohio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448522#448522
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| Subject: | Re: Technique for DSub Pin / data breakout for RPM |
issue
Folks,
Just wanted to say THANKS! for all the great ideas on how to accomplish this data
breakout. I was able to craft my test rig, and determine my RPM issue.
Much appreciated! I love the AeroElectrics Forum!!! What a great resource for
us experimental folks.
Sincerely,
Howard
--------
Howard Plevyak
GlaStar / Cincinnati, Ohio
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448523#448523
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
That switch does not remove the fuses from the circuit. The fuses will protect
downstream wires and loads from excessive current no matter if the switch is
open or closed. As for needing additional short circuit protection near the battery,
it all depends on how long the wires are between the battery and existing
fuses and what danger those wires are in from potential damage. Usually it
is not a good idea to have fuses in series because it is unpredictable which
fuse will blow first, even if they are different sizes. If you think that the
current path between the battery and fuse needs protection, then a fusible link
should be considered. For a circuit with 20awg wire, a fusible link made
of 24awg wire will work. If you really want to use another fuse at the battery,
then use a much larger fuse. It will protect against short circuits between
the battery and 2 amp fuse. The 2 amp fuse will protect against downstream
shorts and overloads.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448524#448524
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
user9253 wrote:
> That switch does not remove the fuses from the circuit. The fuses will protect
downstream wires and loads from excessive current no matter if the switch is
open or closed.
"It will protect downstream wires." But not upstream wires.
I am asking about the wire from the battery to the switch. With the switch open,
there would be no circuit protection between the battery and the switch. Is
that something to be concerned about?
The distance from the battery to the switch is about 6'. From the switch to the
fuse block is another 3'.
Obviously, there are many places were there is no circuit protection (the link
from the battery to the master contactor, master contactor to the starter contactor,
master contactor to the main bus bar, etc.)
I'm trying to understand what the criteria is for when fuses (or CB's) are called
for.
Thanks,
Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448526#448526
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? |
>
>Since I have the SD-8 backup alternator...I won't need to push the
>ETX680 battery this hard...but it's good to know I have roughly an
>hour of flight time before my warning light comes on (Battery Ops
>Alone). I plan to re-run this test at each Annual inspection to
>maintain awareness of it's capacity as I use up life cycles.
>
>I did reset my B&C Specialty Voltage regulator trip point for
>recharge to 14.5V as recommended by Bob K. in a previous thread of
>Lithium batteries. I'm also running cooling hoses to the battery to
>keep it cool since it's installed FWF in the engine compartment.
>
>I highly recommend Bob Knuckoll's battery series in KitPlanes
>magazine...these articles are worth the price of annual subscription alone!
Good work sir . . . thanks for sharing. I trust
you'll write down the results of your findings.
I've taken a hiatus on the KP articles . . .
got a couple in process on the hard drive, one of
which is a wrap-up piece on COMPARATIVE performance
of a stock lead-acid, an EarthX LiPO and I'm
thinking of running an 18 a.h. SLVA to round
out the data package.
It's going to be a while . . . in the mean time,
cogent studies such as yours will assisting in
expanding the body of knowledge.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: LiFePO4 endurance battery? |
The way these batteries are going there is the potential for a different
battery bus architecture.
An aircraft battery is usually performing 2 different requirements,
firstly stored energy to start the engine and secondly as a back-up
power supply should the engine driven system fail, or to fill in for
short term loads. Starting requires a large current for a few seconds
(if everything works properly), back-up power requires more modest
currents for much longer. The two requirements are quite different and
require different batteries. For many years we have used lead-acid
batteries for both tasks as the minimum battery required for reliable
starting was adequate for the back-up task, but those typically
available;e are relatively heavy - say 17lb for a PC680 common in
Lycoming engined aircraft. There is a strong argument, advocated by Bob
and others, to use two cheaper batteries of the same type - one for
starting and one for back-up - and to replace one each year (there is
more to this argument - read The Connection).
With the progress in Lithium battery technology this may no longer be
the optimum strategy - as long as the promises of Li battery makers are
true... Lithium batteries are significantly lighter than lead-acids for
the same task (not always the same stored energy). Also batteries
optimised for starting probably don't store sufficient energy to meet
the back-up requirement. Also a Lithium battery capable of providing
starting currents and storing sufficient energy for the back-up case can
be 5x more expensive than a pure back-up battery. As any Li battery
suitable for aviation use will have an on-board battery management
system, and can cope with being depleted to a point where the BMS shuts
off without a life penalty, it is likely that Lithium batteries will
last much longer than lead-acids. Li batteries are also attractive are
they don't lose much charge over time.
An Li battery designed to crank a Lycoming can be relatively small and
light. With a companion back-up battery the combined weight will be less
than one 15Ah lead-acid. The cost will be 2 or 3 times that of a PC680,
but the lithiums should last a lot longer. Clearly there is little data
available beyond battery manufacturers' claims as these batteries are
only just becoming available in any significant numbers and the
technology is still maturing.
I have been talking to a Lithium battery company in the UK about a
sailplane application. To provide some numbers, a 20Ah battery, which
will provide a maximum of 20A, weighs 2.8kg (6.2lb) and has a life of
3000 cycles (probably 10x an equivalent lead acid) and would retail at
(around) $200. A Li battery to start a Lycoming (nominally a 5Ah
battery) weighs around 2.5lb, has a similar 3000 cycle life expectancy,
but might cost around $300. Overall this pair would weigh around half a
PC680, but would be at least 3x more expensive and will require a more
complex electrical system.
Once these batteries have proven their reliability any aircraft that
doesn't require any significant back-up capability may be able to
realise a 12lb+ weight saving at a relatively modest $/lb rate.
Who knows where this will go in the next year or two, and which
particular Li technology will become favoured.
Peter
On 01/11/2015 13:13, Jan de Jong wrote:
> <jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>
> LiFePO4 starting batteries contain relatively little energy.
> It may be useful to look at the possibilty of an AUX battery for
> endurance (and plan C backup, and possibly voltage hold-up during
> cranking).
> Main task: sit until needed - possibly never.
>
> Searching "standby" and "backup" with safety as the main interest I
> found:
> http://www.pbq.nl/media/datasheet/pbq-lithium-lifepo4-batteries-product-overview.pdf
>
> The text is not quite native English.
> Made in China (Enerise?).
> Examples:
> http://www.pbqbatteries.com/media/datasheet/pbq-life-5-12.pdf
> http://www.pbqbatteries.com/media/datasheet/pbq-life-15-12.pdf
>
> Note: thermal runaway protection additive in the electrolyte
> Note: low maximum charging current
> Note: unknown self-discharge rate (depends on BMS); probably
> reasonable (a 3Ah size exists)
> Note: not for free:
> http://www.advitek.nl/merken/pbq/pbq-life-5---12-lithium-lifepo4-12v-5ah-lithium-ac.html
>
> http://www.advitek.nl/merken/pbq/pbq-lf-15---12-lithium-lifepo4-12v-15ah-lithium-ac.html
>
> Note: supposedly long life
> Note: I did not easily find a USA equivalent
>
> Jan de Jong
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
The criteria is; wherever you would not like an electrical fire.
The battery to the master contactor should be a few inches. That's your
cut off if everything goes sideways. Of course once you open the master,
you have no power for anything. The wire from the main contactor to the
starter contactor and on to the starter is really big wire and it's not
likely to get hot enough fast enough to cause a fire. The unlucky
exception is when some part of the airframe cuts through the starter
wire's insulation. In that case you'll get a pretty good flash while the
electric arc is eating airframe and the wire at the point of contact. If
it happens to be in a spot where there is something flammable there's a
fire. If not, the arc will eat airframe and wire until the gap gets so
wide the arc can't be sustained.
I think the usual thing to do is to put the fuse block(s)/circuit
breakers really close to the main power bus and protect the main power
bus really well. Then switches that control loads come after the
protective devices. Switches are mechanical assemblies and I've seen a
fair number of switches that have disassembled themselves. Then you have
a power source flopping around with the switch actuator still firmly
mounted to the panel.
If you have a 6' piece of #18 wire from the battery to the switch and
then another 3' to the fuse, that is a potential 9' long hot knife or
igniter. You really need to physically protect every one of those as if
it was a main bus wire. That means, don't run it in bundles with other
wires (or plumbing), make sure it's well protected and stood off from
any grounded conductive surface.
For most designers, the pain of having to treat a bunch of wires as is
they were main bus wires is such a pain in the neck that they just
protect things as close to a single main bus as possible.
Bill
On 11/1/15 07:43, donjohnston wrote:
>
>
> user9253 wrote:
>> That switch does not remove the fuses from the circuit. The fuses will protect
downstream wires and loads from excessive current no matter if the switch
is open or closed.
>
> "It will protect downstream wires." But not upstream wires.
>
> I am asking about the wire from the battery to the switch. With the switch open,
there would be no circuit protection between the battery and the switch.
Is that something to be concerned about?
>
> The distance from the battery to the switch is about 6'. From the switch to the
fuse block is another 3'.
>
> Obviously, there are many places were there is no circuit protection (the link
from the battery to the master contactor, master contactor to the starter contactor,
master contactor to the main bus bar, etc.)
>
> I'm trying to understand what the criteria is for when fuses (or CB's) are called
for.
>
> Thanks,
> Don
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448526#448526
>
>
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| Subject: | help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
G'day,
Can someone please "roll"me a simple circuit for reversing a 12v dc motor.
I have robust limit switches capable of easily handling the 6 amps that the
motor draws on this linear actuator "non aviation application" . The limit
switches each have 2 contacts, n.c.
So I have one n.o./n.c. "push to make" pushbutton and another n.o., for the
up and down functions. Obviously if both are pushed simultaneously, nothing
should happen.
Thanks!
Message 12
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| Subject: | help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
G'day,
Can someone please "roll"me a simple circuit for reversing a 12v dc motor.
I have robust limit switches capable of easily handling the 6 amps that the
motor draws on this linear actuator "non aviation application" . The limit
switches each have 2 contacts, n.c.
So I have one n.o./n.c. "push to make" pushbutton and another n.o., for the
up and down functions. Obviously if both are pushed simultaneously, nothing
should happen.
Thanks!
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
At 11:18 AM 11/1/2015, you wrote:
>G'day,
>Can someone please "roll"me a simple circuit for reversing a 12v dc motor.
=C2
>I have robust limit switches capable of easily
>handling the 6 amps that the motor draws on this
>linear actuator "non aviation application" . The limit switches eac
>
>
See http://tinyurl.com/nhftedq
Bob . . .
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
> With the switch open, there would be no circuit protection between the battery
and the switch.
There is no circuit protection between the battery and the switch regardless of
whether the switch is open or closed. If that wire shorts to ground, it doesn't
matter if the switch is open or closed. The 2 amp fuse will not blow because
it will not be conducting the ground fault current.
It is difficult to give advice without seeing the physical location of components.
How about replacing the wire from the battery to the 2 amp fuse with 18
AWG wire and putting a fusible link or large value fuse (15 Amp ?) right at
the battery? I assume that a fuse located at the battery would not be accessible
during flight. So it should be sized so that the 2 amp fuse would always
blow first if the load shorts out.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448549#448549
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| Subject: | Re: Where are fuses required? |
Of course it is not a good idea to replace a blown fuse in flight. It is safer
to wait until on the ground before troubleshooting.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=448550#448550
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| Subject: | Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
do not archive
Is this a general complaint?
Since yesterday I received several messages containing only this:
On 11/1/2015 6:44 PM, Bob Verwey wrote:
> <html><body><pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
>
> </b></font></pre>
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
On November 1, 2015 1:20:33 PM CST, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
><jan_de_jong@casema.nl>
>
>do not archive
>Is this a general complaint?
>Since yesterday I received several messages containing only this:
>
>
>On 11/1/2015 6:44 PM, Bob Verwey wrote:
>> <html><body><pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier
>new,courier">
>> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>>
>>
>> </b></font></pre>
>
>
Same here; I was wondering if it was just me.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
Your problem is !
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
> On 1 Nov 2015, at 07:20 pm, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
>
>
> do not archive
> Is this a general complaint?
> Since yesterday I received several messages containing only this:
>
>
>> On 11/1/2015 6:44 PM, Bob Verwey wrote:
>> <html><body><pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>>
>>
>> </b></font></pre>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corrupted messages |
>
>> On 1 Nov 2015, at 07:20 pm, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
>>
>> do not archive
>> Is this a general complaint?
>> Since yesterday I received several messages containing only this:
>
Seeing lots of these as well. Looks like badly formatted HTML code.
-Dj
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Corrupted messages |
Matt has made a tweak.
Maybe ok now. We shall see.
On 11/1/2015 9:39 PM, Dj Merrill wrote:
>
>
>>> On 1 Nov 2015, at 07:20 pm, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>> do not archive
>>> Is this a general complaint?
>>> Since yesterday I received several messages containing only this:
> Seeing lots of these as well. Looks like badly formatted HTML code.
>
> -Dj
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corrupted messages |
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Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Corrupted messages |
The below is what I see when the message comes back to me when I send it from my
tablet using Pegasus mail using Rich Text and not selecting plain text as the
send encoding. The message below had but one word in the body and that was
"Test" .
Jim Baker
405 426 5377
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Baker <jimbaker@npacc.net>
Sent: Sun, 01 Nov 2015 17:24
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Corrupted messages
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: help with simple 12v motor reversing circuit |
At 11:44 AM 11/1/2015, you wrote:
>G'day,
>Can someone please "roll"me a simple circuit for reversing a 12v dc motor.
See a variety of options at: http://tinyurl.com/nhftedq
Bob . . .
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