---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/24/15: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 10:10 AM - Just A Few Days Left... (Matt Dralle) 1. 01:05 AM - Re: Intercom volume (Bill Maxwell) 2. 06:45 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (user9253) 3. 07:03 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 4. 07:27 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Jan) 5. 07:34 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 6. 07:55 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Neal George) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Jan) 8. 08:39 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 9. 08:43 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (user9253) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 11. 10:12 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (paulmillner) 12. 10:40 AM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 13. 11:15 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on C essna 182P (jan) 14. 11:18 AM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Charlie England) 15. 02:59 PM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (user9253) 16. 04:25 PM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 17. 04:35 PM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 18. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Paul Millner) 19. 05:18 PM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (neal.george@gmail.com) 20. 06:16 PM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (sacha) 21. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P (Charlie England) 22. 10:40 PM - Re: Rotax ignition wiring (jrevens) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 10:10:55 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: AeroElectric-List: Just A Few Days Left... Dear Listers, There are just a few days left for this year's List Fund Raiser. If you've been putting off making a Contribution until the last minute, well, this is it! The last minute, that is... :-) There are some GREAT new gift selections to choose from this year. I personally want at least three of them! There's probably something you can't live without too! And, best of all it supports your Lists! Please remember that there isn't any sort of commercial advertising on the Lists and the *only* means of keeping these Lists running is through your Contributions during this Fund Raiser. Let's make this a "Black Friday" for the Lists! Please make a Contribution today! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:05:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Intercom volume From: Bill Maxwell In theory yes but you can probably wind up the volume control to compensate, Stu. If you have a 4 place intercom and dont usethe full four places, probably wont be an issue anyway? Bill On 24/11/2015 5:55 PM, Stuart Hutchison wrote: > > Gday. > > Can someone please confirm whether the intercom signal (i.e. volume) is diluted by connecting other recording devices in parallel with the main intercom jacks? Id like to hardwire one or two sockets to connect multiple GoPro cameras to the intercom, but not if it will significantly degrade system performance. > > Cheers, Stu > > >> On 24 Nov 2015, at 3:35 PM, user9253 wrote: >> >> >> Microphone jacks should be insulated from the airframe. The coax should be grounded at the avionics end only. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:25 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "user9253" If no problem is found with the aircraft wiring or components, you might consider a filter (if legal on a 182). This website tells how to make your own filter: http://www.sanantoniohams.org/tips/whine.htm Or you can buy a pre-wound toroid (rated for load current) and add a capacitor at the avionics end. Mouser and eBay sell both bare and pre-wound toroids. Mouser part number: 704-CTX100-2-52LP-R eBay item numbers: 400433590605, 191743622176, 370777920139 I am not necessarily recommending a filter but it might be worth a try if all else fails. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450093#450093 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:03:51 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Thanks. There is already an inductive and a capacitive noise filter on the 182. What I'm thinking of though is: two weeks ago (before the ALT breaker popped in flight) everything was fine. So that breaker popping and then the noise appearing as soon as I reset the breaker on the ground must mean that *SOMETHING* has changed: it's unlikely to be the mic/phone jacks so I'm wondering what it could be that was damaged/changed: - could it be that the noise filters were fried by an over-voltage event? (but if it was an overvoltage event, the ALT reg CB should have popped, not the ALT CB). There were actually two problems: - low bus voltage - noise Replacing the alternator solved neither. On Friday, my A&P made a temporary installation of a new voltage regulator and that solved the low voltage problem. But that installation did not allow the alternator to go offline when the ALT rocker switch was turned off. Yesterday, he finished the installation and verified that when the ALT is turned off, the noise disapears. But the interesting thing is that he mentioned that the bus voltage is now 13.5V vs 14.1V on Friday. So I'm now suspecting that the ALT rocker switch is offering some unusual resistance. Could that have been caused by whatever caused the ALT breaker to pop? I guess the next step is to bypass the ALT rocker switch and see if at least the bus voltage returns to 14.1V. Thoughts? The electrical schematic is on p.18 (numbered 2-4) of http://www.t-craft.org/Fleet/C182P-POH.pdf Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450095#450095 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:50 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: Jan Stupid question maybe but is the new voltage regulator identical to the old unit ? All the best Jan > On Nov 24, 2015, at 15:02, sacha wrote: > > > Thanks. There is already an inductive and a capacitive noise filter on the 182. > > What I'm thinking of though is: two weeks ago (before the ALT breaker popped in flight) everything was fine. So that breaker popping and then the noise appearing as soon as I reset the breaker on the ground must mean that *SOMETHING* has changed: it's unlikely to be the mic/phone jacks so I'm wondering what it could be that was damaged/changed: > - could it be that the noise filters were fried by an over-voltage event? (but if it was an overvoltage event, the ALT reg CB should have popped, not the ALT CB). > > There were actually two problems: > - low bus voltage > - noise > Replacing the alternator solved neither. On Friday, my A&P made a temporary installation of a new voltage regulator and that solved the low voltage problem. But that installation did not allow the alternator to go offline when the ALT rocker switch was turned off. Yesterday, he finished the installation and verified that when the ALT is turned off, the noise disapears. But the interesting thing is that he mentioned that the bus voltage is now 13.5V vs 14.1V on Friday. So I'm now suspecting that the ALT rocker switch is offering some unusual resistance. > Could that have been caused by whatever caused the ALT breaker to pop? > > I guess the next step is to bypass the ALT rocker switch and see if at least the bus voltage returns to 14.1V. Thoughts? > > The electrical schematic is on p.18 (numbered 2-4) of http://www.t-craft.org/Fleet/C182P-POH.pdf > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450095#450095 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:19 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Hi Jan No it isn't. The old one is a Ford. The new one a Plane Power regulator. Can you explain why you're asking? Sacha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450097#450097 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:55:07 AM PST US From: Neal George Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P Sasha - The PlanePower voltage regulators are adjustable, and must be adjusted at installation. It would probably be a good idea to replace the Split Master switch, too. neal -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sacha Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P Hi Jan No it isn't. The old one is a Ford. The new one a Plane Power regulator. Can you explain why you're asking? Sacha ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: Jan Well, depending on the technology used for the voltage regulation - the noise can be generated by the regulator. The noise filter that you currently have fitted would have been tuned to the old regulator - new regulator could very well need a new filter, tuned for the current regulator. If the noise pitch is changing with rpm - that would sound to me as if the noise is from the regulator as it does its work regulating the output voltage All the best Jan > On Nov 24, 2015, at 15:53, Neal George wrote: > > > Sasha - > The PlanePower voltage regulators are adjustable, and must be adjusted at installation. > It would probably be a good idea to replace the Split Master switch, too. > > neal > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sacha > Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 9:33 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P > > > Hi Jan > No it isn't. The old one is a Ford. The new one a Plane Power regulator. > Can you explain why you're asking? > Sacha > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Thank you for your inputs. I'm sorry it's a little difficult for me to know exactly what is going on as I am receiving reports from the A&P, not working on the plane directly (as I a not allowed to). I just got another email from the A&P saying that after multiple calls to Plane Power they think they have it correctly installed, but there is some concern that the bus voltage is very slow to come up. Could this be due in any way to a defect of the over voltage protection? Hmmmm.... maybe the most expeditious solution would be to install a Ford regulator and a new master switch. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450101#450101 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:47 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "user9253" Using the voltage regulator CASE as a reference point (not the airframe or battery negative), measure the voltage on the regulator "sense" terminal. Is it the same as battery voltage? If not, find out where the voltage is being dropped. Over-voltage can destroy capacitors. The capacitors could be tested to make sure they are OK. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450102#450102 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:36 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Ok things are even more complicated as I just noticed that the plane power regulator has internal over voltage protection and so the over voltage protection on the a/c must now be bypassed. I get the feeling that I'm gonna have to carefully read the instructions and make sure that they are being followed by the shop! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450104#450104 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:05 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "paulmillner" sacha wrote: > Ok things are even more complicated as I just noticed that the plane power regulator has internal over voltage protection and so the over voltage protection on the a/c must now be bypassed. > > I get the feeling that I'm gonna have to carefully read the instructions and make sure that they are being followed by the shop! Hi Sacha, Why can't you work on your own airplane, under A&P supervision? Who does not "allow" you to? You have to verify that the old OV relay was removed... it could be defective and causing your regulation problem. You do NOT want a Ford automotive regulator... it can cause an overvoltage situation that even an external OV relay cannot overcome (the automotive regulator sources regulator power directly from the alternator, and thus ignores whether the OV relay or alternator half of the master switch are providing power, or not.) Paul -------- Paul Millner, Berkeley CA [OAK] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450106#450106 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:52 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" You're right Paul - that's a good idea. Problem is I Guest I would have to take time off work during weekdays (when the A&P is around) but I can't right now. The old OV system has been removed and the bus voltage is now 14.2V. So now we just have to figure out where the noise is entering the system. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450187#450187 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:44 AM PST US From: jan Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on C essna 182P My money is on the regulator for the noise ... I do not think changing the master switch will solve your noise problem ... Prove it by just shorting out the switch !.. Or temporary mount any old 'toggle switch' to just prove the point .... -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sacha Sent: 24 November 2015 16:38 Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P Thank you for your inputs. I'm sorry it's a little difficult for me to know exactly what is going on as I am receiving reports from the A&P, not working on the plane directly (as I a not allowed to). I just got another email from the A&P saying that after multiple calls to Plane Power they think they have it correctly installed, but there is some concern that the bus voltage is very slow to come up. Could this be due in any way to a defect of the over voltage protection? Hmmmm.... maybe the most expeditious solution would be to install a Ford regulator and a new master switch. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450101#450101 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: Charlie England On 11/24/2015 12:39 PM, sacha wrote: > > You're right Paul - that's a good idea. Problem is I Guest I would have to take time off work during weekdays (when the A&P is around) but I can't right now. > > The old OV system has been removed and the bus voltage is now 14.2V. > > So now we just have to figure out where the noise is entering the system. > 'Under supervision' doesn't mean that he has to stand there looking over your shoulder. As long as he's willing to sign on the dotted line at the end of the process, you could rebuild the entire a/c while he's vacationing in Tahiti. From a previous post: >> You do NOT want a Ford automotive regulator... it can cause an overvoltage situation that even an external OV relay cannot overcome (the automotive regulator sources regulator power directly from the alternator, and thus ignores whether the OV relay or alternator half of the master switch are providing power, or not.) >> I can't make sense of this, as long as we're talking about an externally regulated alternator. Ford style regulators are flying in thousands of homebuilts safely (assuming that OV protection is used). As long as the wire to the field is interrupted, the alternator cannot produce power. Typical OV protection circuits either open the field lead or 'crowbar' it to ground, tripping the field circuit breaker (which breaks the field circuit). Either way, there's no way for the regulator to keep the alternator operating. For noise: What's the ground path from the alternator frame to the battery, and from the regulator negative to the battery? (Make sure neither uses the motor mount as part of the circuit.) What's the ground path back to the battery of the radio where you're hearing the noise? If the noise is happening in receive mode on the radio, try disconnecting the antenna coax from the radio (don't transmit while it's disconnected). If the noise stays the same, the noise is probably entering through the B+ lead or the ground. If the noise goes away, it's probably being radiated from the alternator and/or the regulator into the antenna or coax. Check the coax ground for continuity and check the antenna mount for proper grounding. Charlie ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:15 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "user9253" For testing purposes, temporarily connect a 12 AWG jumper wire from the alternator "B" terminal to the avionics bus and listen to see if the whine goes away. If that is not doable, measure the voltage between the alternator "B" terminal and the avionics bus while the engine is running and all electrical loads are turned on. I would expect that voltage drop to be only millivolts. Is measuring voltage considered "working" on an airplane? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450193#450193 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:55 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Charles/Joe, thanks. I will do the antenna coax test, and, assuming it's not entering via the antenna, I'll do the test that Joe recommended by connecting the B-lead and the avionics bus. On the ground side of things, the alternator is tied to the engine crankcase which is tied to the airframe. The battery is rear mounted and locally grounded to the airframe. I think the best i can do there is to check each connection to make sure it's in tip-top condition and appropriately greased to prevent corrosion. I'll also check the capacitors that mounted on the B-lead so see if they are still operational. Sacha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450195#450195 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Neal, thank you for that. I only just saw your post. It looks like the issue with the regulator has been sorted out. I'm guessing the master switch is fine too but I'll bypass it in a test just to be sure. Sacha Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450197#450197 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: Paul Millner Charlie, The problem is that you're not aware of how Cessna wired the regulator in this 182... Instead of the OV relay interrupting the current path between the regulator and the field terminal as you propose OBAM folks usually do it, the OV relay and the alternator half of the master switch interrupt the power supply *to* the regulator, via the S or Supply terminal. However... the automotive version supplies the regulator and alternator from both the S and the A terminal... and once the master is on, the A terminal is hot... so the Cessna OV relay and alternator half of the master switch are irrelevant. So... an automotive regulator in the Cessna wiring diagram? The alternator is non-controllable... which could be a bad thing. See attached wiring diagram. Paul http://www.secure4host.net/upload/files/Cessna_Alternator_Wiring.pdf On 11/24/2015 11:18 AM, Charlie England wrote: > You do NOT want a Ford automotive regulator... it can cause an > overvoltage situation that even an external OV relay cannot overcome > (the automotive regulator sources regulator power directly from the > alternator, and thus ignores whether the OV relay or alternator half > of the master switch are providing power, or not.) > >>> > > I can't make sense of this, as long as we're talking about an > externally regulated alternator. Ford style regulators are flying in > thousands of homebuilts safely (assuming that OV protection is used). > As long as the wire to the field is interrupted, the alternator cannot > produce power. Typical OV protection circuits either open the field > lead or 'crowbar' it to ground, tripping the field circuit breaker > (which breaks the field circuit). Either way, there's no way for the > regulator to keep the alternator operating. > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:15 PM PST US From: neal.george@gmail.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P I don't suggest that it is contributing to the noise problem, but I DO suspect it is old and has tarnished / corroded contacts that add resistance to the circuit. Could contribute to the voltage sensing and regulation issues... Neal George Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 24, 2015, at 6:34 PM, sacha wrote: > > > Neal, > thank you for that. I only just saw your post. It looks like the issue with the regulator has been sorted out. I'm guessing the master switch is fine too but I'll bypass it in a test just to be sure. > Sacha > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450197#450197 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 06:16:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: "sacha" Good point. It's not a big ticket item (thought $40 seems a lot for two switches) so I guess I ought to swap it out. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450200#450200 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:53:25 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on Cessna 182P From: Charlie England Uh...I stand corrected. Shame Cessna can't be. On 11/24/2015 7:13 PM, Paul Millner wrote: > Charlie, > > The problem is that you're not aware of how Cessna wired the regulator > in this 182... > > Instead of the OV relay interrupting the current path between the > regulator and the field terminal as you propose OBAM folks usually do > it, the OV relay and the alternator half of the master switch > interrupt the power supply *to* the regulator, via the S or Supply > terminal. > > However... the automotive version supplies the regulator and > alternator from both the S and the A terminal... and once the master > is on, the A terminal is hot... so the Cessna OV relay and alternator > half of the master switch are irrelevant. > > So... an automotive regulator in the Cessna wiring diagram? The > alternator is non-controllable... which could be a bad thing. > > See attached wiring diagram. > > Paul > > http://www.secure4host.net/upload/files/Cessna_Alternator_Wiring.pdf > > On 11/24/2015 11:18 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> You do NOT want a Ford automotive regulator... it can cause an >> overvoltage situation that even an external OV relay cannot overcome >> (the automotive regulator sources regulator power directly from the >> alternator, and thus ignores whether the OV relay or alternator half >> of the master switch are providing power, or not.) >> >>>> >> >> I can't make sense of this, as long as we're talking about an >> externally regulated alternator. Ford style regulators are flying in >> thousands of homebuilts safely (assuming that OV protection is used). >> As long as the wire to the field is interrupted, the alternator >> cannot produce power. Typical OV protection circuits either open the >> field lead or 'crowbar' it to ground, tripping the field circuit >> breaker (which breaks the field circuit). Either way, there's no way >> for the regulator to keep the alternator operating. >> >> > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:27 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax ignition wiring From: "jrevens" Since there seem to be quite a few Rotax users on this forum, I have another question... is it really necessary to separate the wiring coming from the engine (pressure & temperature sensors, tachometer signal, etc). from the ignition wires when penetrating the firewall. In other words, should the ignition wire have their own penetration, separated from that other wiring? I believe this is what Kitfox recommends. I hope this specific subject hasn't already been discussed on this forum. -------- John Evens Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying) Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building) Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450203#450203 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.