Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:57 AM - Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers (rampil)
2. 08:18 AM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 08:36 AM - Re: Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 10:31 AM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Paul Millner)
5. 12:22 PM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Justin Jones)
6. 02:13 PM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Charlie England)
7. 04:19 PM - ADS-B antenna location (jrevens)
8. 06:39 PM - Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on C essna 182P (sacha)
9. 06:50 PM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 06:51 PM - Re: Circuit breaker question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:57 PM - Re: ADS-B antenna location (David Lloyd)
12. 11:17 PM - Re: ADS-B antenna location (Rob Turk)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers |
Greetings All!
I recently updated my Europa/Rotax to move my batteries to the back
of the airframe from the firewall. Since the batteries are now inaccessible,
I decided to install a formal charging port on the fuselage.
Starting with Bob's original design, I used the circuit design, changing
only the receptacle to an Anderson Power Products 175 AH (I just couldn't
justify the weight of the antique, massive Piper receptacle).
The System works well when connected to an external 12V truck battery,
or when connected to an old fashioned (20-30 year old) aircraft shop charger.
However, when driving the airframe battery with a modern, computer-
controlled charger, the charge port contactor relay chatters (oscillates
open-closed) at 3-5 Hz. If I modify the Nuckoll's circuit to remove the
kickback diode on the contactor (1N4001), the chatter stops and circuit
performs as expected. I have yet to put a scope on the circuit, but the
12 Henries of reactance I estimated on the White-Rogers Type 71 coil
seems to interact badly with the voltage sensing feature of "Smart" chargers.
Any Thoughts?
Ira
--------
Ira N224XS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450860#450860
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote:
>Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>
>Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a
>circuit using 4awg wire for his alternator. He
>asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit
>breakers wired in Parallel for this purpose
>instead of a single 100A breaker. Chapter 11 in
>AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse
>for 4AWG wire. I suggested the use of a 70A ANL
>fuse, but wasn=99t sure what the answer is to the CB question he had.
Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business
use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead.
At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have
protected the b-lead for 30 or more years.
Check out the products on this webpage
http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop
These are miniature, high current fuses
and matching holders widely available through
automotive and mobile sound system dealers.
You can find all sizes along with mounting
bases on ebay.
http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu
One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders
that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws.
You want a holder with captive, male studs
which are used to place the fuse-tab into
intimate contact with the ring-terminal on
the end of your b-lead wiring.
A holder like this one
http://tinyurl.com/54fk
can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation
fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws
and dropping your ring terminals over the
fuse attach screws.
Consider making your own fuse holder . . .
A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta
or other high temp, machinable plastic.
http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e
These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless
steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware
store will produce a robust alternative
to purchased/modified fuse holders.
Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above
the alternator rating. If the guy wants to
use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50%
LARGER than the alternator output. Finally,
DO NOT parallel breakers.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Revisiting Ground Power Adapter: Modern Chargers |
However, when driving the airframe battery with a modern, computer-
controlled charger, the charge port contactor relay chatters (oscillates
open-closed) at 3-5 Hz. If I modify the Nuckoll's circuit to remove the
kickback diode on the contactor (1N4001), the chatter stops and circuit
performs as expected. I have yet to put a scope on the circuit, but the
12 Henries of reactance I estimated on the White-Rogers Type 71 coil
seems to interact badly with the voltage sensing feature of "Smart" chargers.
May very well be . . . the current bevy of 'smart
chargers' seem to have many and varied minds of their
own. I did some tests on a "carbon foam" SVLA battery
for Beech a few years ago. This 100AH battery would not
charge in a timely manner with any of my 'standard'
chargers. I purchased a new Schumacher charger rated
at 25A. Here's a voltage plot of the charger's output
for recovering from a deep discharge
Emacs!
Batteries are probably the ultimate integrators of 'rough'
charging profiles but as you've noted, 'foreign' devices
in the circuit may produce unexpected behaviors.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
On 12/10/2015 8:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business
> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead.
Hey Bob!
You're overlooking our friends at Cessna, responsible for almost half
the single engine land aircraft out there! From the first installation
of alternators through, I believe, today, they put a breaker at the main
bus where the alternator power enters... in my '76 Cardinal (12 volt)
that's a 60 amp beast which is hard to come by, and subject of several
service bulletins over the years (aluminum bus heating causing false
tripping, etc.)
Paul
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to locate them? C
lose to the alternator or close to the battery?
Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a short, w
ouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we simply protecting f
rom an over amperage condition?
Justin
> On Dec 10, 2015, at 07:16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
> At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote:
ring.com>
>>
>> Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a circuit using 4awg wire fo
r his alternator. He asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit breakers wire
d in Parallel for this purpose instead of a single 100A breaker. Chapter 11 i
n AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse for 4AWG wire. I suggested t
he use of a 70A ANL fuse, but wasn=99t sure what the answer is to the C
B question he had.
>
> Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business
> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead.
> At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have
> protected the b-lead for 30 or more years.
>
> Check out the products on this webpage
>
> http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop
>
> These are miniature, high current fuses
> and matching holders widely available through
> automotive and mobile sound system dealers.
> You can find all sizes along with mounting
> bases on ebay.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu
>
> One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders
> that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws.
> You want a holder with captive, male studs
> which are used to place the fuse-tab into
> intimate contact with the ring-terminal on
> the end of your b-lead wiring.
>
> A holder like this one
>
> http://tinyurl.com/54fk
>
> can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation
> fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws
> and dropping your ring terminals over the
> fuse attach screws.
>
> Consider making your own fuse holder . . .
> A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta
> or other high temp, machinable plastic.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e
>
> These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless
> steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware
> store will produce a robust alternative
> to purchased/modified fuse holders.
>
> Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above
> the alternator rating. If the guy wants to
> use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50%
> LARGER than the alternator output. Finally,
> DO NOT parallel breakers.
>
>
> Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
On December 10, 2015 3:21:06 PM EST, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
wrote:
>Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to locate
>them? Close to the alternator or close to the battery?
>
>Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a
>short, wouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we simply
>protecting from an over amperage condition?
>
>Justin
>
>
>
>> On Dec 10, 2015, at 07:16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>> At 06:02 PM 12/7/2015, you wrote:
><jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
>>>
>>> Hangar talk with a neighbor. He is designing a circuit using 4awg
>wire for his alternator. He asked me if he could use 2 - 50A circuit
>breakers wired in Parallel for this purpose instead of a single 100A
>breaker. Chapter 11 in AC 43 says to use a 100A breaker or a 70A fuse
>for 4AWG wire. I suggested the use of a 70A ANL fuse, but wasnt sure
>what the answer is to the CB question he had.
>>
>> Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business
>> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead.
>> At Beech, current limiters on the firewall have
>> protected the b-lead for 30 or more years.
>>
>> Check out the products on this webpage
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/by5qnop
>>
>> These are miniature, high current fuses
>> and matching holders widely available through
>> automotive and mobile sound system dealers.
>> You can find all sizes along with mounting
>> bases on ebay.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/jn9k9nu
>>
>> One caveat . . . AVOID the fuse holders
>> that grip the fat-wires with mash-screws.
>> You want a holder with captive, male studs
>> which are used to place the fuse-tab into
>> intimate contact with the ring-terminal on
>> the end of your b-lead wiring.
>>
>> A holder like this one
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/54fk
>>
>> can be 'modified' to a satisfactory aviation
>> fuse holder by discarding the mash-screws
>> and dropping your ring terminals over the
>> fuse attach screws.
>>
>> Consider making your own fuse holder . . .
>> A block carved from phenolic, delrin, micarta
>> or other high temp, machinable plastic.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/jdatd3e
>>
>> These parts combined with some 10-32 stainless
>> steel screws, nuts and washers from a hardware
>> store will produce a robust alternative
>> to purchased/modified fuse holders.
>>
>> Pick a MIDI fuse rating at or just above
>> the alternator rating. If the guy wants to
>> use a breaker, the rating should be 20-50%
>> LARGER than the alternator output. Finally,
>> DO NOT parallel breakers.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
Battery end. Battery can melt the wire; alt cannot.
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Message 7
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| Subject: | ADS-B antenna location |
I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new project before
doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my transponder antenna. I just
received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx says that there must be a minimum of
5 feet of separation or the ADS-B unit will fail (their words). Has anyone broken
this rule and had successful operation with less than 5 feet of separation?
Can a closer distance actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular
instance, moving the ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy change to have
to make. Can't believe I did that.
--------
John Evens
Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Troubleshooting radio whine/noise on C essna 182P |
That's a good idea. I asked my A&P if he could do that but he said it would be
a lot of work. I will see if I can devise a way. Seems like it would be a good
test.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450879#450879
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
At 12:30 PM 12/10/2015, you wrote:
>
>
>On 12/10/2015 8:16 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>Few OEMs (if any) in the certified iron business
>> use circuit breakers in the alternator b-lead.
>
>Hey Bob!
>
>You're overlooking our friends at Cessna, responsible for almost
>half the single engine land aircraft out there! From the first
>installation of alternators through, I believe, today, they put a
>breaker at the main bus where the alternator power enters... in my
>'76 Cardinal (12 volt) that's a 60 amp beast which is hard to come
>by, and subject of several service bulletins over the years
>(aluminum bus heating causing false tripping, etc.)
Yes, that's where they were when I worked there
too . . . but I thought those were moved off the
panel when the Lamar power distribution box went
into production . . . and that's been some time
ago.
I'll have to check my G2 sources . . .
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Circuit breaker question |
At 02:21 PM 12/10/2015, you wrote:
>Convinced him to go with ANL fuses. Where is the best place to
>locate them? Close to the alternator or close to the battery?
>
>Bob's Z diagrams show them near the battery. If protecting against a
>short, wouldn't the battery end of the b lead be best? Or are we
>simply protecting from an over amperage condition?
Close to the battery. An alternator is physically
incapable of burning its own b-lead . . . but the
BATTERY is good for 1000+ amps in a fault condition.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: ADS-B antenna location |
John,
Others will answer with greater detail, but here is what you are up against.
. .
The transponder puts out high wattage pulse returns in answer to a radar
inquiry. That pulse of power is going to hit your ADS antenna pretty hard.
I don't have a clue what modern receiver solid state circuits can deal with
these days but, that pulse is made up of a huge bandwidth of harmonics, etc.
that typically make up/define a "pulse". My thinking is that 60" and more
is needed to not cause problems. . .
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "jrevens" <jrevens@comcast.net>
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:17 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADS-B antenna location
>
> I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new
> project before doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my
> transponder antenna. I just received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx says
> that there must be a minimum of 5 feet of separation or the ADS-B unit
> will fail (their words). Has anyone broken this rule and had successful
> operation with less than 5 feet of separation? Can a closer distance
> actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular instance, moving the
> ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy change to have to make. Can't
> believe I did that.
>
> --------
> John Evens
> Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
> Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878
>
>
>
---
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: ADS-B antenna location |
The transponder transmits a certain amount of energy. As you move away
from the antenna, the energy spreads out. Only some of the transmitted
energy will hit the receiving antenna and the further you move away, the
less energy will be 'caught'. When too close, the amount of energy
induced in the receiver antenna can overwhelm or even damage the
sensitive ADS-B receiver.
The attenuation between transmitter antenna and receiver antenna is
called 'free space path loss'. There is a formula to calculate that
loss, and here's a link that will let you play with it:
https://www.pasternack.com/t-calculator-fspl.aspx
Using that calculator, the difference between 45 inches and 5ft at 1GHz
is less than 3dB. That is not a whole lot. A poor quality antenna cable
will already give you that. That means for your situation that you can
simulate the extra distance by adding a 3dB attenuator in your receiver
antenna cable. The drawback is that you'll have slightly worse coverage
(the signals that you want are also attenuated a bit), but should be safe.
You may want to call NavWorx and ask them about this. Things also depend
on the rest of your installation, such as type and output of your
transponder, antenna cable type and lengths for both devices, etc.
Rob
On 12/11/2015 3:55 AM, David Lloyd wrote:
> <skywagon@charter.net>
>
> John,
>
> Others will answer with greater detail, but here is what you are up
> against. . .
>
> The transponder puts out high wattage pulse returns in answer to a
> radar inquiry. That pulse of power is going to hit your ADS antenna
> pretty hard. I don't have a clue what modern receiver solid state
> circuits can deal with these days but, that pulse is made up of a huge
> bandwidth of harmonics, etc. that typically make up/define a "pulse".
> My thinking is that 60" and more is needed to not cause problems. . .
> David
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jrevens" <jrevens@comcast.net>
> To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 4:17 PM
> Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADS-B antenna location
>
>
>>
>> I stupidly did a very nice ADS-B UAT antenna installation on my new
>> project before doing all of my homework. It is 45 inches from my
>> transponder antenna. I just received my ADS600-EXP unit. NavWorx
>> says that there must be a minimum of 5 feet of separation or the
>> ADS-B unit will fail (their words). Has anyone broken this rule and
>> had successful operation with less than 5 feet of separation? Can a
>> closer distance actually cause damage to the unit? In this particular
>> instance, moving the ADS-B antenna will be a difficult and messy
>> change to have to make. Can't believe I did that.
>>
>> --------
>> John Evens
>> Thorp T-18 N71JE (built & flying)
>> Kitfox SS7 N27JE (building)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=450878#450878
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>
>
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