Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:05 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Trent Heidtke)
2. 08:20 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Charlie England)
3. 08:54 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Justin Jones)
4. 09:36 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:48 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:55 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Michael Lazarowicz)
7. 10:08 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (William Mills)
8. 10:35 AM - Re: Grounding Tabs (H. Marvin Haught Jr.)
9. 02:38 PM - Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs (Michael Lazarowicz)
10. 03:50 PM - Re: Grounding Tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 03:57 PM - Re: Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Marvin,
You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart
People document included as a link here.
http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf
I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right,
the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a
lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss.
Just my two cents..
Trent
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H.
Marvin Haught
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs
Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the
firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a
wire back to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more
apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe
than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the ground
wire back to the firewall ground?
M. Haught
On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
Bob,
When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics
ground bus or a =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to
isolate/isolate that ground bus from the =9Clocal=9D ground,
or other metal frame on the aircraft, before it is connected to the
common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should do that to
eliminate other possibilities of ground loops.
I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . .
you're correct that running a ground from
panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal
airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all
the potential victims (avionics and instruments)
ground at the single point panel ground. No
potentially antagonist loops are created by adding
a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
There's probably some useful info there, but keep your salt shaker handy.
Charlie
On 1/10/2016 9:03 AM, Trent Heidtke wrote:
>
> Marvin,
>
> You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart
> People document included as a link here.
> http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf
>
> I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it
> right, the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss
> and take a lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss.
>
> Just my two cents..
>
> Trent
>
> *From:*owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
> *H. Marvin Haught
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs
>
> Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
> isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the
> firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run
> a wire back to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you
> more apt to have possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the
> airframe than you would isolating it from the airframe and running the
> ground wire back to the firewall ground?
>
> M. Haught
>
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com
> <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>> wrote:
>
> At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> When another grounding bus is used, like an avionics ground bus
> or a panel ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that
> ground bus from the local ground, or other metal frame on the
> aircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground?
> It seems to me that you should do that to eliminate other
> possibilities of ground loops.
>
>
> I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . .
> you're correct that running a ground from
> panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal
> airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all
> the potential victims (avionics and instruments)
> ground at the single point panel ground. No
> potentially antagonist loops are created by adding
> a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
I think the can of worms was just reopened.
There is some correct information in this document but there is a whole lot o
f opinions. The document was written by Greg from the now-defunct Blue Mount
ain Avionics.
Bob has attempted to have an open discussion on some of the points that Greg
has attempted to make, but from what I recall, Greg wasn't interested in th
e discussion for one reason or another. I will let Bob elaborate.
Just a few rhetorical questions about some of the points he made.... Why wou
ld you want two batteries (or one 24v) and not two alternators? What if the b
elt driving the alternator breaks or the bearing in the alternator causes it
to fail? Or the alternator fails? Or the regulator fails... With an electri
cally dependent engine, hack the clock as your airborne time is now limited.
With a second alternator (perhaps driven from the vacuum pad) you now have a
non-event and lower risk of an impending engine failure due to running out o
f stored electrons.
There are many more issues with the document that I won't go into, however s
ome of the information is factually correct.
Be careful out there. The Internet is full of potentially bad information.
Justin
> On Jan 10, 2016, at 07:03, Trent Heidtke <theidtke@cox.net> wrote:
>
> Marvin,
> You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart People d
ocument included as a link here. http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12ju
ly2008.pdf
> I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right, t
he answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a lead b
ack to the main battery and/or battery buss.
> Just my two cents..
> Trent
>
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelect
ric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of H. Marvin Haught
> Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs
>
> Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to isola
te the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewall groun
d, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back to to t
he firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible
ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating
it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall groun
d?
>
> M. Haught
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelec
tric.com> wrote:
>
> At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> When another =C2=93grounding bus=C2=94 is used, like an avionics ground bu
s or a =C2=93panel=C2=94 ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate that
ground bus from the =C2=93local=C2=94 ground, or other metal frame on the a
ircraft, before it is connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to m
e that you should do that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops.
>
> I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . .
> you're correct that running a ground from
> panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal
> airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all
> the potential victims (avionics and instruments)
> ground at the single point panel ground. No
> potentially antagonist loops are created by adding
> a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
At 03:57 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
>Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
>isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the
>firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not
>run a wire back to to the firewall ground?
In the metal airplane, grounding all panel mounted
systems to panel structure is sufficient . . . no
'extension' wire to the firewall is useful . . . nor
is it a potential 'loop hazard'.
>In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops
>if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it
>from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall ground?
No . . . the 'loop' exists when a potential
antagonist (alternator, battery charging
currents, flap motors, strobe supplies, etc)
SHARES a grounding pathway with the low voltage
signals of a potential victim (headphones, microphones,
intercoms, remote compass sensors, etc).
Tie all potential victims to ground at one place
local to the panel . . . after that, signal integrity
is no longer 'at risk' no matter how and where
you ground all other things,
Bob . . .
Message 5
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At 09:03 AM 1/10/2016, you wrote:
>Marvin,
>You might find a good explanation and tips in
>the Wiring For Smart People document included as
>a link here.=C2
>=C2
><http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf>http://www.meyette.us/
aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf
>I found it very useful when wiring my
>plane.=C2 If I did it/read it right, the answer
>to your question is to isolate the grounding
>buss and take a lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss.
Approach that document with caution . . . it
is fraught with error and unfounded assertions.
See:
http://tinyurl.com/qxvr6nx
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
Thanks so much for the link Trent. It was very helpful. I am starting to
learn that some of this stuff is a lot of personal preference, but the
basic rules are all the same. After all of this I will ground everything
to a singe point (forest of tabs) that is directly connected to the Battery
Ground, Firewall and engine ground strap. My only real issue was, because
of the RV8 forward baggage location, is how to get all the grounds to the
Brass bolt on the firewall and how large the connecting wire should be. A
# 6 wire will do the trick. It is basically a all aircraft version of
Bob's D-sub avionics grounding set up for the Avionics items. I would
much rather have all the Tabs right on the back side of the firewall, but
in the RV8 it just makes for a lot of extra long grounding wires routed in
a inconvenient place.
I will try and post some photos of my " final solution"
Thanks again
Mike
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Trent Heidtke <theidtke@cox.net> wrote:
> Marvin,
>
> You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart People
> document included as a link here.
> http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf
>
> I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right,
> the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a
> lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss.
>
> Just my two cents..
>
> Trent
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *H. Marvin
> Haught
> *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Grounding Tabs
>
>
> Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
> isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the firewa
ll
> ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire back
> to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to hav
e
> possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you woul
d
> isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the
> firewall ground?
>
>
> M. Haught
>
>
> On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics gr
ound bus or a
> =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate th
at ground bus from
> the =9Clocal=9D ground, or other metal frame on the aircraft,
before it is
> connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you should
do
> that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops.
>
>
> I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . .
> you're correct that running a ground from
> panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal
> airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all
> the potential victims (avionics and instruments)
> ground at the single point panel ground. No
> potentially antagonist loops are created by adding
> a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
Okay.....I think I finally understand. I was making it a lot more
complex that it really is, at least for a metal airframe. The airframe
itself is a good basic ground for all components as long as you have
good grounding points for the firewall/airframe/engine, and good common
airframe ground for panel components. So for wing tip mounted strobes,
the airframe ground is sufficient? No need to run a ground wire back to
the firewall ground to avoid interference?
M. Haught
On 1/10/2016 10:45 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 03:57 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
>> Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
>> isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the
>> firewall ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not
>> run a wire back to to the firewall ground?
>
> In the metal airplane, grounding all panel mounted
> systems to panel structure is sufficient . . . no
> 'extension' wire to the firewall is useful . . . nor
> is it a potential 'loop hazard'.
>
>> In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to have possible ground loops
>> if you mount the buss to the airframe than you would isolating it
>> from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the firewall
>> ground?
>
> No . . . the 'loop' exists when a potential
> antagonist (alternator, battery charging
> currents, flap motors, strobe supplies, etc)
> SHARES a grounding pathway with the low voltage
> signals of a potential victim (headphones, microphones,
> intercoms, remote compass sensors, etc).
>
> Tie all potential victims to ground at one place
> local to the panel . . . after that, signal integrity
> is no longer 'at risk' no matter how and where
> you ground all other things,
>
> Bob . . .
>
---
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs |
I have read Bob's reply. It raises another question. If I were to use B&C
forest of tabs to ground everything. Flap motor , P. Heat, strobes,
interior lights and all the panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc. would
that cause a ground loop.
Should you ground those Items directly to the airframe instead of the
tabs. I will re read the ground loop explanation aagin, but I think my
confusion exists on what the path is.
sorry I started this but I just want to get it correct
Thanks
Mike
On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 1:00 PM, <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com> wrote:
> The following message from Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330@gmail.com> was
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> From: Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330@gmail.com>
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Grounding Tabs
> ****************************************
>
> Thanks so much for the link Trent. It was very helpful. I am starting t
o
> learn that some of this stuff is a lot of personal preference, but the
> basic rules are all the same. After all of this I will ground everything
> to a singe point (forest of tabs) that is directly connected to the Batte
ry
> Ground, Firewall and engine ground strap. My only real issue was, becaus
e
> of the RV8 forward baggage location, is how to get all the grounds to the
> Brass bolt on the firewall and how large the connecting wire should be.
A
> # 6 wire will do the trick. It is basically a all aircraft version of
> Bob's D-sub avionics grounding set up for the Avionics items. I would
> much rather have all the Tabs right on the back side of the firewall, but
> in the RV8 it just makes for a lot of extra long grounding wires routed i
n
> a inconvenient place.
>
> I will try and post some photos of my " final solution"
>
>
> Thanks again
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 10:03 AM, Trent Heidtke <theidtke@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Marvin,
> >
> > You might find a good explanation and tips in the Wiring For Smart Peop
le
> > document included as a link here.
> > http://www.meyette.us/aircraft_wiring12july2008.pdf
> >
> > I found it very useful when wiring my plane. If I did it/read it right
,
> > the answer to your question is to isolate the grounding buss and take a
> > lead back to the main battery and/or battery buss.
> >
> > Just my two cents..
> >
> > Trent
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> > owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *H. Marvin
> > Haught
> > *Sent:* Saturday, January 09, 2016 2:57 PM
> > *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> > *Subject:* Re: Grounding Tabs
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob - I think you answered only half the question. Is it better to
> > isolate the grounding buss, and run a dedicated ground back to the
> firewall
> > ground, or mount the ground buss to the airframe, and not run a wire ba
ck
> > to to the firewall ground? In a metal airplane. Are you more apt to
> have
> > possible ground loops if you mount the buss to the airframe than you
> would
> > isolating it from the airframe and running the ground wire back to the
> > firewall ground?
> >
> >
> >
> > M. Haught
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 9, 2016, at 3:14 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > At 02:28 PM 1/9/2016, you wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > When another =9Cgrounding bus=9D is used, like an avionics
ground bus or a
> > =9Cpanel=9D ground bus, is it necessary to isolate/isolate
that ground bus
> from
> > the =9Clocal=9D ground, or other metal frame on the aircraf
t, before it is
> > connected to the common firewall ground? It seems to me that you shoul
d
> do
> > that to eliminate other possibilities of ground loops.
> >
> >
> > I'm going to clarify Z-15 in next revision . . .
> > you're correct that running a ground from
> > panel ground to firewall ground is redundant in a metal
> > airplane. It doesn't hurt anything as long as all
> > the potential victims (avionics and instruments)
> > ground at the single point panel ground. No
> > potentially antagonist loops are created by adding
> > a wire to the firewall . . . it's just redundant.
> >
> >
> >
> > Bob . . .
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Grounding Tabs |
At 12:22 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote:
>Okay.....I think I finally understand. I was making it a lot more
>complex that it really is, at least for a metal airframe. The
>airframe itself is a good basic ground for all components as long as
>you have good grounding points for the firewall/airframe/engine, and
>good common airframe ground for panel components. So for wing tip
>mounted strobes, the airframe ground is sufficient? No need to run
>a ground wire back to the firewall ground to avoid interference?
No
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Returned Mail: Re: Grounding Tabs |
At 04:35 PM 1/10/2016, you wrote:
>I have read Bob's reply.=C2 It raises another
>question.=C2 If I were to use B&C forest of tabs
>to ground everything.=C2 Flap motor , P.
>Heat,=C2 strobes, interior lights and all the
>panel stuff like coms, audio panel etc.=C2 would that cause a ground loop.
No . . . the "ideal" single point ground philosophy
says take EVERYTHING to one place . . . except for
the simplest of small airplanes, this is impractical.
As shown in the Z-15 figures, collect all panel grounds
(potential victims) to one place, all airframe grounds
to firewall as practical . . . or ground locally as
convenience dictates.
For plastic airplanes, then -A- you DO gather airframe grounds to
the firewall and -B- take an extension wire from
the panel ground down to the firewall.
Bob . . .
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