Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:22 AM - Re: Electrical system design critique (Jump4way)
2. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Electrical system design critique (Justin Jones)
3. 09:07 AM - Re: Electrical system design critique (user9253)
4. 09:49 AM - shielded wire (Michael Lazarowicz)
5. 10:41 AM - Schematic for twin PM alternators (Andy Elliott)
6. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Electrical system design critique (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 10:51 AM - Re: shielded wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (Paul Eckenroth)
9. 05:43 PM - Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (user9253)
10. 06:25 PM - Re: Electrical system design critique (Jump4way)
11. 07:12 PM - Re: Electrical system design critique (user9253)
12. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (Charlie England)
13. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (wrbyars@aol.com)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf
Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in.
For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from
the main bus?
Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links?
Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine related
items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition,
and fuel pump?
Thanks for your time and critique.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
I can confirm that the solid state contractor does in fact conduct both directions.
I'm running this setup already and it works great.
I have an ANL fuse installed by the contractor in the main alternator B lead. I
can send pictures if interested. I also have a fuse in the aux alternator b lead.
Andy,
If you wish, I can send you my final diagram on how I wired this exact same setup.
I'm very happy with it. I have pictures also.
Justin
> On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:20, Jump4way <andydelk@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf
>
> Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in.
>
> For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected
from the main bus?
>
> Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links?
>
> Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine
related items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition,
and fuel pump?
>
> Thanks for your time and critique.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
> For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected
from the main bus?
The short answer is yes. Ideally every wire should be protected against over current
and short circuits. But the consequences of opening a circuit must be
considered. In this circuit, over current is not an issue because the circuit
breakers protect against that. What about short circuit protection? It depends
on the length of the #12 wire and danger of the circuit breaker bus shorting
to ground. If good workmanship is used, wires are well supported, and bus
is insulated, then I would leave that 15 amp fuse out.
But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main
power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential
bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there
is a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot.
Consider replacing the 15 amp avionics fuse with a fusible link.
The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock,
is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break.
Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the
endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from
current coming from the main power bus.
Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly
installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would
rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit
because the fusible link failed.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451951#451951
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I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire. I there any reason Icannot use it
(without grounding the shield) in places like the starter switch where non
shielded wire is called for. I was short some some # 20 Tefzel wire and
used the shielded. I just cut bcck the shield and put a small piece of
heat shrink on it so no chance of it shorting to anything. May seem like a
stupid question but I have to ask.
I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it.
Mike
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Subject: | Schematic for twin PM alternators |
If the dynamos do not come with a preferred regulator, I would recommend
that you look carefully at quality (not no-name Chinese) motorcycle
regulators, especially those designed to replace H-D regulators. Good
names are Holley (has purchased Acell) and Compu-Fire. Some of these
have status outputs that can also be fed to your warning system, if you
have one, or just to an idiot light, if desired.
These regulators are designed to operate in really poor conditions and
have proven quite robust in aviation-related applications. I used one
on my Corvair-powered Zodiac 601XL with an 18A John Deere dynamo. I
installed it behind the firewall, and used the airframe skin as a
heatsink.
Andy Elliott
------------------------
Andrew S. Elliott, CFI
Servicios Aereos, LLC
Dynamic Propeller Balancing, Flight Instruction
PH: 720-460-1823
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
>
>Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in.
>
>For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire
>unprotected from the main bus?
>
>Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links?
Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99%
of all your branch circuit protection should
be done with fuses/breakers.
>Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and
>secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to
>locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump?
Draw up a power distribution diagram . . .
or copy one out of Appenedix Z and
start assigning system loads to the
various busses.
Verbal discussions of design philosophy
and technique is fraught with opportunity
for misunderstanding and error. A drawing
says it all . . . in ANY language.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: shielded wire |
At 11:40 AM 1/13/2016, you wrote:
>I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire.=C2 I there
>any reason Icannot use it (without grounding the
>shield) in places like the starter switch where
>non shielded wire is called for.=C2 I was short
>some some # 20 Tefzel wire and used the
>shielded.=C2 I just cut bcck the=C2 shield and put
>a small piece of heat shrink on it so no chance
>of it shorting to anything.=C2 May seem like a
>stupid question but I have to ask.
>
>I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it.
It won't hurt anything and will function
as intended
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators |
There are two pairs of wires exiting the accessory case. I believe they
are all the same color. I've included pictures to show the schematic
included in the instructions and pictures used in a contact magazine
article about the engine. I don't want to reinvent the wheel here but
would like to make sure I put this together the best way possible,
Concerns for me are the generators output to the battery which will be a
EarthX Lithium. The ideal charging voltage is 13.9 - 14-6 V with 14.7V the
maximum tolerated. I need to know if the TMG-3096 rectifier/regulator is
suitable for the job or if there is a better choice available. What do I
use to shut things down if the regulator fails. What else do I need to
know.
Paul
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 5:58 PM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How many wires come from the alternator, just two or two pairs? Are the
> wires marked or color coded? Do you have a picture of the
> rectifier/regulator? Can you post the schematic that you have?
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451935#451935
>
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators |
Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned
above.
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
Paul,
Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea
how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected
directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized?
Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added
weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they
offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams
that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book
for download free.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using
the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451960#451960
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
First off... thanks to everyone for taking to time to weed through my diagram and
offering suggestions.
> But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main
power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential
bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there is
a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot.
>
The idea of having the trim on circuit breakers was to have a means of disconnecting
the pitch and roll trim in the rare instance of a runaway trim. I suppose
a switch could be used for that regard but I thought circuit breakers would
be a better way to kill two birds with one stone. I do not intend to have the
need to use the circuit breakers as a switch on any type of regular basis.
> The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock,
is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break.
I was using this switch as a means to disable to avionics bus during engine start
along with a means to disable to starter from the pushbutton on the infinity
stick during flight in case it were to be inadvertantly pushed. The switch is
rated at 15A which might in itself be a point of failure at some point as you
suggest with your link regarding avionics busses.
> Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the
endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from
current coming from the main power bus.
I added this to my diagram, thanks for point that out.
> Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly
installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would
rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit
because the fusible link failed.
This was the main fusible link that I was concerned with. I think I'll remove this
one as well. The wire run will be well supported and is fairly short.
> Draw up a power distribution diagram . . .
> or copy one out of Appenedix Z and
> start assigning system loads to the
> various busses.
That's what I'm trying to do with the diagram I have uploaded. I know it's not
CAD quality but will it not suffice for these discussions and for future reference?
> Verbal discussions of design philosophy
> and technique is fraught with opportunity
> for misunderstanding and error. A drawing
> says it all . . . in ANY language.
>
Good advice. I'm trying my best but just as soon as I feel like I am getting the
idea, something is said that adds confusion. and example is the following:
> Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99%
> of all your branch circuit protection should
> be done with fuses/breakers.
As a new builder, I find it challenging to determine where they are recommended
and where they are not. Your book does make mention that they should be used
primarily in low amerpage circuits so that must be where I am going wrong with
some of my decisions. On the other hand, I read things such as using an inline
fuse for some of the same situations can be unreliable as fuses blow at a faster
rate.
Attached is an updated version of the schematic with a couple of the recommended
changes. Any additional advice is appreciated.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451961#451961
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/z1320_efii_5_121.pdf
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Electrical system design critique |
Having a switch to disable the stick grip start button is a good idea. But disabling
the avionics bus is not necessary and introduces a failure point. Notice
that none of Bob's diagrams have a switch in series with the diode that feeds
the E-Bus.
Did you mean to insert an 18 AWG fuselink, not 20 AWG? If the avionics bus has
a few extra fuse slots, the aux input could be back fed through a fuse instead
of using a fusible link.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451962#451962
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators |
Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real
schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the
drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'.
It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one
end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series
or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a
diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is
likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery.
The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up
overvoltage protection.
On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned
above.
> http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
> Paul,
> Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no
idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected
directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized?
Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added
weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If
they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams
that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book
for download free.
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
> If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest
using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators |
I think you sent me this by mistake I don't know what you're talking about
On Jan 13, 2016 9:58 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real
> schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the
> drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'.
> It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one
> end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series
> or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a
> diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is
> likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery.
>
> The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up
> overvoltage protection.
>
> On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote:
> >
> > Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned
above.
> > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf
> > Paul,
> > Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no
idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected
directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized?
Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added
weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they
offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams
that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for
download free.
> > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
> > If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest
using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay.
> >
> > --------
> > Joe Gores
> >
>
>
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