---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/13/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:22 AM - Re: Electrical system design critique (Jump4way) 2. 06:16 AM - Re: Re: Electrical system design critique (Justin Jones) 3. 09:07 AM - Re: Electrical system design critique (user9253) 4. 09:49 AM - shielded wire (Michael Lazarowicz) 5. 10:41 AM - Schematic for twin PM alternators (Andy Elliott) 6. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Electrical system design critique (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:51 AM - Re: shielded wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:27 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (Paul Eckenroth) 9. 05:43 PM - Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (user9253) 10. 06:25 PM - Re: Electrical system design critique (Jump4way) 11. 07:12 PM - Re: Electrical system design critique (user9253) 12. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (Charlie England) 13. 08:12 PM - Re: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators (wrbyars@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:46 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique From: "Jump4way" The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? Thanks for your time and critique. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:16:47 AM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique I can confirm that the solid state contractor does in fact conduct both directions. I'm running this setup already and it works great. I have an ANL fuse installed by the contractor in the main alternator B lead. I can send pictures if interested. I also have a fuse in the aux alternator b lead. Andy, If you wish, I can send you my final diagram on how I wired this exact same setup. I'm very happy with it. I have pictures also. Justin > On Jan 13, 2016, at 08:20, Jump4way wrote: > > > The solid state disconnect is rated at 300 amps with 500 amps for one second. It's not clear to me whether it is rated the same in both directions. Here is a link to the documentation they provide. http://www.waytekwire.com/datasheet/44407.pdf > > Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. > > For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? > > Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? > > Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? > > Thanks for your time and critique. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451945#451945 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:22 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique From: "user9253" > For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire unprotected from the main bus? The short answer is yes. Ideally every wire should be protected against over current and short circuits. But the consequences of opening a circuit must be considered. In this circuit, over current is not an issue because the circuit breakers protect against that. What about short circuit protection? It depends on the length of the #12 wire and danger of the circuit breaker bus shorting to ground. If good workmanship is used, wires are well supported, and bus is insulated, then I would leave that 15 amp fuse out. But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there is a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot. Consider replacing the 15 amp avionics fuse with a fusible link. The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from current coming from the main power bus. Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit because the fusible link failed. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451951#451951 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:49:55 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: shielded wire From: Michael Lazarowicz I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire. I there any reason Icannot use it (without grounding the shield) in places like the starter switch where non shielded wire is called for. I was short some some # 20 Tefzel wire and used the shielded. I just cut bcck the shield and put a small piece of heat shrink on it so no chance of it shorting to anything. May seem like a stupid question but I have to ask. I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it. Mike ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:41:42 AM PST US From: "Andy Elliott" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Schematic for twin PM alternators If the dynamos do not come with a preferred regulator, I would recommend that you look carefully at quality (not no-name Chinese) motorcycle regulators, especially those designed to replace H-D regulators. Good names are Holley (has purchased Acell) and Compu-Fire. Some of these have status outputs that can also be fed to your warning system, if you have one, or just to an idiot light, if desired. These regulators are designed to operate in really poor conditions and have proven quite robust in aviation-related applications. I used one on my Corvair-powered Zodiac 601XL with an 18A John Deere dynamo. I installed it behind the firewall, and used the airframe skin as a heatsink. Andy Elliott ------------------------ Andrew S. Elliott, CFI Servicios Aereos, LLC Dynamic Propeller Balancing, Flight Instruction PH: 720-460-1823 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique > >Good catch on the ANL fuse. I'll put that in. > >For the breaker bus feed, would you just leave that 12 gauge wire >unprotected from the main bus? > >Any comments on the location and usage of the fuse links? Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99% of all your branch circuit protection should be done with fuses/breakers. >Also, I'm conflicted about the placement of the primary and >secondary engine related items. Any recommendation on which bus to >locate the primary ECU, ignition, and fuel pump? Draw up a power distribution diagram . . . or copy one out of Appenedix Z and start assigning system loads to the various busses. Verbal discussions of design philosophy and technique is fraught with opportunity for misunderstanding and error. A drawing says it all . . . in ANY language. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:51:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: shielded wire At 11:40 AM 1/13/2016, you wrote: >I have a bunch of #20 shielded wire.=C2 I there >any reason Icannot use it (without grounding the >shield) in places like the starter switch where >non shielded wire is called for.=C2 I was short >some some # 20 Tefzel wire and used the >shielded.=C2 I just cut bcck the=C2 shield and put >a small piece of heat shrink on it so no chance >of it shorting to anything.=C2 May seem like a >stupid question but I have to ask. > >I know its probably a waist but I had a lot of it. It won't hurt anything and will function as intended Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators From: Paul Eckenroth There are two pairs of wires exiting the accessory case. I believe they are all the same color. I've included pictures to show the schematic included in the instructions and pictures used in a contact magazine article about the engine. I don't want to reinvent the wheel here but would like to make sure I put this together the best way possible, Concerns for me are the generators output to the battery which will be a EarthX Lithium. The ideal charging voltage is 13.9 - 14-6 V with 14.7V the maximum tolerated. I need to know if the TMG-3096 rectifier/regulator is suitable for the job or if there is a better choice available. What do I use to shut things down if the regulator fails. What else do I need to know. Paul On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 5:58 PM, user9253 wrote: > > How many wires come from the alternator, just two or two pairs? Are the > wires marked or color coded? Do you have a picture of the > rectifier/regulator? Can you post the schematic that you have? > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451935#451935 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:34 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators From: "user9253" Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf Paul, Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451960#451960 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique From: "Jump4way" First off... thanks to everyone for taking to time to weed through my diagram and offering suggestions. > But why even have that bus? Connect the alternator field breaker to the main power bus with a short wire. Move the pitch and roll trim circuits to the essential bus and protect them with fuses, not breakers. If a fuse blows, there is a reason. Wait until safely on the ground to troubleshoot. > The idea of having the trim on circuit breakers was to have a means of disconnecting the pitch and roll trim in the rare instance of a runaway trim. I suppose a switch could be used for that regard but I thought circuit breakers would be a better way to kill two birds with one stone. I do not intend to have the need to use the circuit breakers as a switch on any type of regular basis. > The DPDT switch, used in series with the diode and used for starter interlock, is unnecessary. If eliminated, it can not break. I was using this switch as a means to disable to avionics bus during engine start along with a means to disable to starter from the pushbutton on the infinity stick during flight in case it were to be inadvertantly pushed. The switch is rated at 15A which might in itself be a point of failure at some point as you suggest with your link regarding avionics busses. > Notice on Bob's Z-13/8 that there is a fusible link connected to the top of the endurance bus. That fusible link protects the wire (if shorted) above it from current coming from the main power bus. I added this to my diagram, thanks for point that out. > Maybe eliminate the fusible link supplying power to the battery bus. If properly installed and insulated, the battery bus will not short to ground. I would rather take a chance on that #12 wire burning open than have the engine quit because the fusible link failed. This was the main fusible link that I was concerned with. I think I'll remove this one as well. The wire run will be well supported and is fairly short. > Draw up a power distribution diagram . . . > or copy one out of Appenedix Z and > start assigning system loads to the > various busses. That's what I'm trying to do with the diagram I have uploaded. I know it's not CAD quality but will it not suffice for these discussions and for future reference? > Verbal discussions of design philosophy > and technique is fraught with opportunity > for misunderstanding and error. A drawing > says it all . . . in ANY language. > Good advice. I'm trying my best but just as soon as I feel like I am getting the idea, something is said that adds confusion. and example is the following: > Fusible links are SELDOM needed . . . 99% > of all your branch circuit protection should > be done with fuses/breakers. As a new builder, I find it challenging to determine where they are recommended and where they are not. Your book does make mention that they should be used primarily in low amerpage circuits so that must be where I am going wrong with some of my decisions. On the other hand, I read things such as using an inline fuse for some of the same situations can be unreliable as fuses blow at a faster rate. Attached is an updated version of the schematic with a couple of the recommended changes. Any additional advice is appreciated. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451961#451961 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/z1320_efii_5_121.pdf ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:09 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Electrical system design critique From: "user9253" Having a switch to disable the stick grip start button is a good idea. But disabling the avionics bus is not necessary and introduces a failure point. Notice that none of Bob's diagrams have a switch in series with the diode that feeds the E-Bus. Did you mean to insert an 18 AWG fuselink, not 20 AWG? If the avionics bus has a few extra fuse slots, the aux input could be back fed through a fuse instead of using a fusible link. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=451962#451962 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:14 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators From: Charlie England Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'. It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery. The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up overvoltage protection. On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf > Paul, > Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf > If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. > > -------- > Joe Gores > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Schematic for twin PM alternators From: wrbyars@aol.com I think you sent me this by mistake I don't know what you're talking about On Jan 13, 2016 9:58 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Agree that contacting Revmaster is the best 1st action. Ask for a real > schematic, in addition to the hookup cartoon. But the way I read the > drawing, they are showing 1/2 the system, with the other half 'implied'. > It looks like the alternator is wired to operate single phase, with one > end of the coil (actually three coils; unknown whether they are series > or parallel) having one end ground referenced and the other feeding a > diode contained within the regulator. The 'bat pos 12v DC' lead is > likely 14v, otherwise it won't charge the battery. > > The book Joe references has a drawing that shows how to set up > overvoltage protection. > > On 1/13/2016 7:38 PM, user9253 wrote: > > > > Here is a link to an easy to read pdf of the Contact article that Paul mentioned above. > > http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue80/Issue-80L.pdf > > Paul, > > Looking at the Revmaster wiring picture, I am completely stumped. I have no idea how it can work wired that way. It appears that one of the AC wires is connected directly to the battery. And why isn't the second alternator being utilized? Most builders would love to have a second free alternator with no added weight. All I can suggest is to call Revmaster and ask their advice. If they offer no help, then I suggest that you use part of one of Bob Nuckolls' diagrams that contains a Dynamo with over-voltage protection. He offers his book for download free. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf > > If you can not figure out how to wire the regulator that you have, I suggest using the MIA881279 regulator available on eBay. > > > > -------- > > Joe Gores > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.