Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:15 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (user9253)
2. 07:31 AM - Any news about Matt? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:32 AM - Re: Engine Ground (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 08:12 AM - Re: Any news about Matt? ()
5. 08:16 AM - Re: Any news about Matt? (Charlie England)
6. 08:43 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (Ken Ryan)
7. 10:18 AM - Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (user9253)
8. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (Ross Home)
9. 11:49 AM - Re: Engine Ground (Kelly McMullen)
10. 12:02 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (Ken Ryan)
11. 02:22 PM - Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (user9253)
12. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 05:28 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel Pump Con (GTH)
15. 07:47 PM - Wiring Diagram (H. Marvin Haught Jr.)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel |
Pump Con
1. Over voltage protection.
Bob Nuckolls made a demonstration board for an court trial. He made a movie showing
what happens when fuses or circuit breakers are in series. If Bob is reading,
maybe he can provide a link to that movie. It was interesting. Anyway,
even a 10 amp fuse might blow before a 5 amp series breaker trips. The fuse
needs to be slow blow and much larger than the circuit breaker. Or do not put
protection devices in series.
2. Understand
3. The capabilities of an EFIS are amazing.
4. OK
5. The reason that I suggested using a smaller breaker for the output of the 20
amp dynamo is that in the event of a short circuit, a 20 amp breaker might not
ever trip because the dynamo will struggle to put out that much current. The
AC coils or regulator could overheat. Since the fuel pump is the only load
and requires less than 10 amps, a larger breaker is not needed.
Have fun with your project.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452191#452191
Message 2
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Subject: | Any news about Matt? |
It has been some time since Matt's misfortune
was updated here on the List . . . does anyone
have some recent feedback to share?
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Engine Ground |
At 08:09 PM 1/21/2016, you wrote:
>I happened to be helping repair a Cessna 170-B and noticed the
>engine ground was routed only about 4" aft of the rubber mounts and
>attached to a tab on the motor mount in lieu of the firewall. This
>saved a few feet of heavy wire and a few ounces.
That was a common practice . . . waaayyyy back
when . . .
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Any news about Matt? |
I didn't dear asking, but since there were 2 messages from him meanwhile about
list usage, I was assuming that he is back in the saddle and things are ok.
Rumen
---- "Robert L. Nuckolls wrote:
============
It has been some time since Matt's misfortune
was updated here on the List . . . does anyone
have some recent feedback to share?
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Any news about Matt? |
On 1/22/2016 8:50 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>
> It has been some time since Matt's misfortune
> was updated here on the List . . . does anyone
> have some recent feedback to share?
>
>
> Bob . . .
Here's a link to a VAF thread about Matt:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=133051&highlight=matt+dralle
Last bit of info says that he's moved to a rehab facility.
Bob Leffler mentions that the family has been updating their facebook
page, but I'm a bit of a facebook luddite.
Charlie
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting |
and Fuel Pump Con
Thanks Joe. I will move the field wire for the 40 amp alternator away from
the bus, maybe to the battery relay. That will eliminate the fuse, leaving
only the 5 amp panel breaker on the over voltage/field circuit. I will
downsize the 20 amp panel breaker for the 20 amp integrated generator to 10
amps for the reasons you stated.
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 6:01 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 1. Over voltage protection.
> Bob Nuckolls made a demonstration board for an court trial. He made a
> movie showing what happens when fuses or circuit breakers are in series.
> If Bob is reading, maybe he can provide a link to that movie. It was
> interesting. Anyway, even a 10 amp fuse might blow before a 5 amp series
> breaker trips. The fuse needs to be slow blow and much larger than the
> circuit breaker. Or do not put protection devices in series.
> 2. Understand
> 3. The capabilities of an EFIS are amazing.
> 4. OK
> 5. The reason that I suggested using a smaller breaker for the output of
> the 20 amp dynamo is that in the event of a short circuit, a 20 amp breaker
> might not ever trip because the dynamo will struggle to put out that much
> current. The AC coils or regulator could overheat. Since the fuel pump is
> the only load and requires less than 10 amps, a larger breaker is not
> needed.
> Have fun with your project.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452191#452191
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel |
Pump Con
Link to Bob's demonstration of a circuit breaker and fuse in series.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/03_Larger%20Fuse%20Hypothesis.wmv
WMV file size is 87 MB
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452198#452198
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and |
Fuel Pump Con
With a download time of 11 hours, I think I will pass even though it looks
interesting.
Thanks for posting it though.
Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 10:16 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting
and Fuel Pump Con
Link to Bob's demonstration of a circuit breaker and fuse in series.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/0
3_Larger%20Fuse%20Hypothesis.wmv
WMV file size is 87 MB
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452198#452198
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Engine Ground |
Perhaps my memory is fading from the C-170B that I owned for 23 years
and sold 18 yrs ago, but I recall the engine ground going to the
firewall. The path between the battery, master and starter relays is so
short on that plane that it won't matter much. The battery was on the
right side of firewall with one or both relays on the battery box. The
starter is less than 12" away, one of the old pull start models at the
top center of the engine accessory case. The run to the panel buss is
equally short.
On 1/22/2016 8:27 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 08:09 PM 1/21/2016, you wrote:
>> I happened to be helping repair a Cessna 170-B and noticed the engine
>> ground was routed only about 4" aft of the rubber mounts and attached
>> to a tab on the motor mount in lieu of the firewall. This saved a few
>> feet of heavy wire and a few ounces.
>
> That was a common practice . . . waaayyyy back
> when . . .
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting |
and Fuel Pump Con
One other thing I was wondering ... does it make any difference if the
panel breaker on the integrated generator comes before or after the
capacitor?
On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Joe. I will move the field wire for the 40 amp alternator away from
> the bus, maybe to the battery relay. That will eliminate the fuse, leaving
> only the 5 amp panel breaker on the over voltage/field circuit. I will
> downsize the 20 amp panel breaker for the 20 amp integrated generator to 10
> amps for the reasons you stated.
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2016 at 6:01 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> 1. Over voltage protection.
>> Bob Nuckolls made a demonstration board for an court trial. He made a
>> movie showing what happens when fuses or circuit breakers are in series.
>> If Bob is reading, maybe he can provide a link to that movie. It was
>> interesting. Anyway, even a 10 amp fuse might blow before a 5 amp series
>> breaker trips. The fuse needs to be slow blow and much larger than the
>> circuit breaker. Or do not put protection devices in series.
>> 2. Understand
>> 3. The capabilities of an EFIS are amazing.
>> 4. OK
>> 5. The reason that I suggested using a smaller breaker for the output of
>> the 20 amp dynamo is that in the event of a short circuit, a 20 amp breaker
>> might not ever trip because the dynamo will struggle to put out that much
>> current. The AC coils or regulator could overheat. Since the fuel pump is
>> the only load and requires less than 10 amps, a larger breaker is not
>> needed.
>> Have fun with your project.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452191#452191
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting and Fuel |
Pump Con
> does it make any difference if the panel breaker on the integrated generator
comes before or after the capacitor?
It will work in either location.
But I think it is best the way you have it pictured.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452202#452202
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting |
and Fuel Pump Con
At 09:01 AM 1/22/2016, you wrote:
>
>1. Over voltage protection.
>Bob Nuckolls made a demonstration board for an court trial. He made
>a movie showing what happens when fuses or circuit breakers are in
>series. If Bob is reading, maybe he can provide a link to that movie.
The specific video is at:
http://tinyurl.com/ppdv5fg
The sum total of the accident analysis can be
seen at:
http://tinyurl.com/msfmldj
> It was interesting. Anyway, even a 10 amp fuse might blow before
> a 5 amp series breaker trips.
I've opened 20A fuses through 5A breakers
>5. The reason that I suggested using a smaller breaker for the
>output of the 20 amp dynamo is that in the event of a short circuit,
>a 20 amp breaker might not ever trip because the dynamo will
>struggle to put out that much current.
I'm aware of NO engine driven power source
that is capable of opening its own output
protection. Fuses, breakers, fusible links
and current limiters protect wires . . . nothing
more. Further, that protection needs to be
installed facing the probable source of energy
feeding the fault. In our itty-bitty airplanes,
this is almost ALWAYS the battery.
Hence, alternator output protection goes as
close to the battery as practical. It is robust
enough to stay closed under most energetic output
the alternator can produce. I've written about
the "breaker designed to nuisance trip" that
was built into tens of thousands airplanes . . .
a 60A breaker on 60A alternator.
In the case of feeder protection for a 10-20A
PM alternator/rectifier-regulator, a 30A fuse
or mini current limiter is not too big and it
CANNOT be nuisance tripped by alternator output.
If some failure puts the alternator itself at
risk . . . so be it. Let the alternator smoke,
protect the wires and go to plan-B.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting |
and Fuel Pump Con
At 01:54 PM 1/22/2016, you wrote:
>One other thing I was wondering ... does it make any difference if
>the panel breaker on the integrated generator comes before or after
>the capacitor?
In anecdotal observations over the years, I am
not convinced that these capacitors across the
bus on ANY system serve a useful purpose. I
think it is there because somebody thought it
was a good idea waaayyyyy back when . . . and I
might even have agreed with the hypothesis.
But in several instances of bench testing, I've
not been able to measure any beneficial effect for
the capacitor being there. I'm building a
drive-stand to run the B&C SD-8 series machines
on my bench. I'm doing some design studies on
the next generation of PM rectifier-regulators
to be offered by B&C.
The legacy capacitor included in virtually
every PM alternator architecture will be examined
in detail with a goal of putting numbers on
its efficacy.
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Rotax 914 Generator, Alternator, Starting |
and Fuel Pump Con
/Le 23/01/2016 02:24, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit :
/
> /
>
> The legacy capacitor included in virtually
> every PM alternator architecture will be examined
> in detail with a goal of putting numbers on
> its efficacy./
Hi Bob and all,
About 13 years ago during the build of our project, I had the
opportunity to conduct some experiments with the Rotax 914 alternator &
voltage regulator.
We discovered that the Rotax voltage regulator doesn't start delivering
energy unless it is subject to some voltage from the battery or capacitor.
My buddy Jerome (he is the expert) made an electrical analysis of the
performance of the voltage regulator. He also assessed the thermal
behavior of the regulator with his students.
I published some info on Contrails !
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
Our MCR 4S four seater - wired as per the 'Connection philosophy - is
still going strong after 11 years of service.
FWIW,
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 15
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Bob -
I am finally back on the wiring diagram for the Pacer project I have in my hangar.
Some health and family issues have taken precedence in the past months, but
I am finally now where I can address the wiring of my project. I have used
the time to lurk on the Short Wing Piper site as well as others, and got this
diagram from a thread on wiring diagrams this week.
I thought I would have the group as well as yourself take a look at this schematic
as a basis for my electrical system. According to what I understood from
the thread, the diagram is very similar to the wiring schematic for a 1981 Super
Cub. I am having trouble accessing some of the archived photos and files
on the site, but when I get that problem solved, will compare the actual Piper
schematic to this one, and will post it here if it is different. To any extent,
from my study of this particular schematic, I think it should make a good
starting point for my project. Please take a look an provide feedback as you
see fit.
M. Haught
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