Today's Message Index:
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1. 01:32 AM - Re: Re: LED wig-wag (Bob Verwey)
2. 05:24 AM - Starter engaged warning lights (Owen Baker)
3. 12:20 PM - Re: Starter engaged warning lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 01:15 PM - Re: Starter engaged warning lights (C&K)
5. 04:42 PM - Re: Starter engaged warning lights (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Eric so what in my case is the effect of using my 12 v ship supply to power
the 24 v lights, with your device?
On Thursday, February 18, 2016, Eric M. Jones <emjones@charter.net> wrote:
> emjones@charter.net <javascript:;>>
>
> Automotive conversion WWs depend on the lamp filament resistance to tell
> the user if a lamp has failed. Perihelion Design's WWs don't use this
> system. We have sold WWs in two types AND in 28V types for a decade. I even
> sell 2X frequency Europa WWs for a single lamp. They work fine with LEDs
> and HIDs and Incandescents. The WW(D) includes the switch (and I now
> include a free switch guard!). The WW(C) is without the switch.
>
> Eric
>
> --------
> Eric M. Jones
> www.PerihelionDesign.com
> 113 Brentwood Drive
> Southbridge, MA 01550
> (508) 764-2072
> emjones(at)charter.net
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=452953#452953
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/wigwag_module_d1manual_105.pdf
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/wigwag_module_manual_c_200.pdf
>
>
--
Best...
Bob Verwey
Message 2
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| Subject: | Starter engaged warning lights |
2/19/2016
Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, At 12:40:30 PM PST US Bob Nuckolls
wrote: "While chewed up ring gears and pinons are ugly,
they don't represent much of a hazard to the engine or airplane."
(Extracted from Nuckolls entire 12:40:30 PM PST US posting
which is copied below.)
This quoted statement (and the entire premise of his 12:40:30 PM PST US
posting) is based on the configuration of Lycoming engines
with ring gears and pinions external to the engine crankcase. But if the
starter pinion gear and the engaged engine cranking gear are internal
to the engine crankcase, as is the arrangement for some Continental
engines, then considerable engine damage can result from the metal
shards thrown off by a disintegrating starter pinion gear that remains
improperly engaged after the engine is running.
Copied here is an extract from an internet posting
(http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-467979.html) that discusses this
condition:
"In Continentals, gears do not engage and disengage. The smaller
Continentals, have an over running clutch, which are known to seize. When
this happens, the starter motor is accelerated to a rotational speed far in
excess of the design, and it's probably going to fly apart, and seize. This
is going to cause something in the engine drive line to break. The larger
Continentals employ a worm drive and clutch spring. These are known to seize
and overheat. There are a number of reasons for, and variations on this
failure, which are too much to describe here. In short, a running on motor
in these engines is bad for several reasons, and there are other failures,
which do not involve an energized motor.
So, just because your "starter engaged" warning light is not illuminated (it
probably should be called a "starter energized" warning light), there could
still be a failure of the starter system, which is every bit as serious. Be
"at one" with how your engine should sound and operate just after start. If
it is not right, shut it down, and have the maintainer have a look."
Regardless of the degree or commonality of the risk involved, I stand by my
Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:24 AM posting and this extract from it:
"So it turns out that the starter engaged light is not an absolute
indicator of the starter gear being engaged to
the engine cranking gear or not, but rather is more accurately described as
a starter contactor frozen (or stuck) in the start position light."
'OC' Baker
=========================================
Time: 12:40:30 PM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Starter engaged warning lights
>Although relatively rare, having the starter and flywheel teeth jam
>and break in flight might make for a "stormy night" story :-(
Not sure how much of a risk this is.
Every starter I'm aware of has an over-running
clutch built onto the pinion gear shaft. Hangar
myths about stuck pinions back driving a starter
and turning it into a generator are without
merit. Further, the solenoid/contactor configuration
of choice features a robust disengagement mechanism.
The only 'unintentional engagements' I've
heard about over the last 20 years have
involved stuck contactors that kept the pinion
gear electrically engaged. One such case involved
a aerobatic performance airplane at OSH where
the entire routine was performed with the starter
engaged.
While chewed up ring gears and pinons are ugly,
they don't represent much of a hazard to the engine
or airplane.
The strongest prophylactic against these events
are a strong battery and a modern, stick-resistant
contactor.
Most mechanical risk for pinion gear retraction
failure have foundation in poor maintenance . . .
a 'hard stick' is going to be preceded by a series
of tentative sticks. Just keep the shaft clean
and watch the pinion gear teeth for changes
in wear patterns.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Starter engaged warning lights |
At 07:22 AM 2/19/2016, you wrote:
>
>2/19/2016
>
>Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, At 12:40:30 PM PST US Bob
>Nuckolls wrote: "While chewed up ring gears and pinons are ugly,
> they don't represent much of a hazard to the engine or
> airplane." (Extracted from Nuckolls entire 12:40:30 PM PST US posting
>which is copied below.)
>
>This quoted statement (and the entire premise of his 12:40:30 PM PST
>US posting) is based on the configuration of Lycoming engines
>with ring gears and pinions external to the engine crankcase. But if
>the starter pinion gear and the engaged engine cranking gear are internal
>to the engine crankcase, as is the arrangement for some Continental
>engines, then considerable engine damage can result from the metal
>shards thrown off by a disintegrating starter pinion gear that
>remains improperly engaged after the engine is running.
>
>Copied here is an extract from an internet posting
>(http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-467979.html) that
>discusses this condition:
>
>"In Continentals, gears do not engage and disengage. The smaller
>Continentals, have an over running clutch, which are known to seize.
>When this happens, the starter motor is accelerated to a rotational
>speed far in excess of the design, and it's probably going to fly
>apart, and seize. This is going to cause something in the engine
>drive line to break.
Yes, the premise was based on the open-air, ring-gear
configuration common to Lycoming. But if a Continental
starter suffers the event, there's no way one can
sense this condition electrically for operation
of a 'starter engaged' light . . . so while the
condition is rare the risk is not zero . . . and
there's probably not much we can do about it in terms
of annunciating the condition.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Starter engaged warning lights |
Sounds like a challenge for a non certified continental owner who is
concerned about this rare scenario.
Surely there is a simple electrical test to the starter side of the
contactor that would determine whether the armature is still rotating
after startup. One could mount a starter in a lathe or drill press and
start experimenting...
Ken
On 19/02/2016 3:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 07:22 AM 2/19/2016, you wrote:
>>
>> 2/19/2016
>>
>> Hello Bob Nuckolls and Fellow Listers, At 12:40:30 PM PST US Bob
>> Nuckolls wrote: "While chewed up ring gears and pinons are ugly,
>> they don't represent much of a hazard to the engine or
>> airplane." (Extracted from Nuckolls entire 12:40:30 PM PST US posting
>> which is copied below.)
>>
>> This quoted statement (and the entire premise of his 12:40:30 PM PST
>> US posting) is based on the configuration of Lycoming engines
>> with ring gears and pinions external to the engine crankcase. But if
>> the starter pinion gear and the engaged engine cranking gear are internal
>> to the engine crankcase, as is the arrangement for some Continental
>> engines, then considerable engine damage can result from the metal
>> shards thrown off by a disintegrating starter pinion gear that
>> remains improperly engaged after the engine is running.
>>
>> Copied here is an extract from an internet posting
>> (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-467979.html
>> <http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-467979.html>) that
>> discusses this condition:
>>
>> "In Continentals, gears do not engage and disengage. The smaller
>> Continentals, have an over running clutch, which are known to seize.
>> When this happens, the starter motor is accelerated to a rotational
>> speed far in excess of the design, and it's probably going to fly
>> apart, and seize. This is going to cause something in the engine
>> drive line to break.
>
> Yes, the premise was based on the open-air, ring-gear
> configuration common to Lycoming. But if a Continental
> starter suffers the event, there's no way one can
> sense this condition electrically for operation
> of a 'starter engaged' light . . . so while the
> condition is rare the risk is not zero . . . and
> there's probably not much we can do about it in terms
> of annunciating the condition.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Starter engaged warning lights |
At 03:14 PM 2/19/2016, you wrote:
>
>Sounds like a challenge for a non certified continental owner who is
>concerned about this rare scenario.
>Surely there is a simple electrical test to the starter side of the
>contactor that would determine whether the armature is still
>rotating after startup. One could mount a starter in a lathe or
>drill press and start experimenting...
>Ken
Might not be that complicated. ANY non-zero
voltage on that terminal after start-button
release is reason to believe the starter
motor is still spinning. I'll pray over that
that idea a bit . . . but I think the bill
of materials is under a dollar.
Bob . . .
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