Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:25 AM - Re: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport (Peter Pengilly)
2. 05:46 AM - Re: Fast-on tabs or screw terminals for ground? (donjohnston)
3. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport (jan)
4. 01:38 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport (Kelly McMullen)
5. 03:29 PM - Charging circuit: Sanity check (Charlie England)
6. 05:09 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport (Peter Pengilly)
7. 06:18 PM - Re: Charging circuit: Sanity check (user9253)
8. 06:26 PM - Brass Strap alternative in Z-19RB (Hariharan Gopalan)
9. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport (Kelly McMullen)
10. 09:25 PM - Re: Re: Charging circuit: Sanity check (Charlie England)
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport |
Flame suit is on and I stand by all of my comments. As VPX has control of
trim and flap motor based on an input from the EFIS any error in this chain
could cause significant problems. With an IFR aircraft it is just about
essential to have an alternative power supply to the attitude
instrument(s), outside of the VPX.
I have had 25 years experience working with airborne software writers, I
don't trust them as much as some here seem to!
Peter
On 25 Mar 2016 02:52, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com> wrote:
> kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Misconceptions from lack of familiarity.
>
> On 3/24/2016 4:15 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>
>> - The sales pitch is that designing electrical systems and wiring up is
>> difficult and this box makes it easy. I don't agree with these statements!
>>
> Never perceived it that way. It does simplify the wiring.
>
>> - It provides limited opportunities for expansion. There are a limited
>> number of circuits available, once these are used up any additional
>> services will have to be protected by conventional fuses or circuit
>> breakers - seems to make the box a little pointless.
>>
> The Pro version is not that limited, is intended for full IFR panel, which
> is what I have, with several pins available for expansion.
>
>> - The box is expensive compared to fuses.
>>
> Not when you have to physically install each, do the labor to replace any
> that blow, etc. I had full hardware priced for CB & fuses system...easily
> $500. Add 100 hours of labor to design, and create panel of fuses/CB etc,
> and you are over price of VPX.
> Advanced Flight Systems thought enough of the concept that they designed
> their own box.
>
>> - Combining many functions in one box means that any failure becomes a
>> significant event rather than just an annoyance.
>>
> AFAIK, unknown event so far.
>
>> - The software is designed and coded to an unknown standard and tested
>> in an unknown way, neither of which engenders confidence.
>>
> Have had no issues, have been operating the system for about 3 yrs.
>
>> - The standAFAIKards used to design, build and test the hardware are not
>> easy
>> to discern, leading to questions on the long term reliability.
>>
> Theoretical, where is data of unreliability?
>
> - Using the box to control trim and flaps using an input from an EFIS
>> places a huge amount of trust in the software writers where a fault
>> risks potentially very serious consequences.
>>
> Does not use EFIS for input beyond airspeed, only outputs trim/flap
> position to EFIS. Position comes from trim motor or a position sensor.
> Power goes to trim/flap motor. No extra boxes needed for trim speed
> control, runaway protection, wig wag lights.
>
>> - Those an have chosen to use this box can be very firm in their
>> support, and intolerant of those who present an alternative view, flame
>> suit on!!
>>
> Only intolerant of criticism generated by lack of knowledge, not facts.
>
> On the supportive side, the designer (Marc Ausman) is a huge supporter
>> of homebuilt aviation, and is a director of EAA. The real world
>> reliability seems to be reasonable.
>>
>
> Data behind that assertion???
>
>>
>> My advice would be to start by listing all the electrical functions you
>> want in your aircraft, then which are key to the safe completion of a
>> flight. If you have (m)any of these are you content to entrust the
>> operation of these functions to the VPX? If you are list the cost of
>> using fuses against other means. Install equipment for as reason!
>>
>> Peter
>>
> No problem with your recommendations, but how electrically dependent is
> you aircraft? How critical are items beyond engine ignition? If critical,
> you need some independent backup. Are you not planning for portable GPS and
> Com radio for back up?
> You can't fly commercial activities, so how much pressure is there to fly
> in solid IFR? Why would you design electrical system that is critical to
> continued flight without independent dual systems?
> The VPX offers a lot of convenience and flexibility without hardware
> issues. want to switch an item from buss A to B? Just a software
> reconfigure. Want to change landing lights wig-wag function? Just software.
> Ditto for trim or flap limits. Have you flown an example of your aircraft
> model? Do you know how trim dependent it is?
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Fast-on tabs or screw terminals for ground? |
Well, to be fair, your 2 cents are worth about $2 compared to others. ;-)
And I will continue providing you funds so you can offer your 2 cents here.
Thanks for all that you do!
stein(at)steinair.com wrote:
> Ever tried to get a "fast on" terminal (PIDG type) off of a good spade with
> your bare fingers? Almost impossible....yet screws and locknuts (without
> locktite that is) can and do often work themselves loose, especially during
> the first 40 hrs of flight as things "settle in".
>
> We many thousands upon thousands of both per year, and I'm a bit ambivalent
> to either being superior, but I do know that if you use high quality
> terminals those things are VERY good.
>
> Just my 2 cents as usual.
>
> Cheers,
> Stein
>
> --
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454116#454116
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport |
:-) .. someone once told me that ignorance is bliss ...
Jan
_____
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter
Pengilly
Sent: 25 March 2016 07:23
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport
Flame suit is on and I stand by all of my comments. As VPX has control of
trim and flap motor based on an input from the EFIS any error in this chain
could cause significant problems. With an IFR aircraft it is just about
essential to have an alternative power supply to the attitude instrument(s),
outside of the VPX.
I have had 25 years experience working with airborne software writers, I
don't trust them as much as some here seem to!
Peter
On 25 Mar 2016 02:52, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com
<mailto:kellym@aviating.com> > wrote:
<mailto:kellym@aviating.com> >
Misconceptions from lack of familiarity.
On 3/24/2016 4:15 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
- The sales pitch is that designing electrical systems and wiring up is
difficult and this box makes it easy. I don't agree with these statements!
Never perceived it that way. It does simplify the wiring.
- It provides limited opportunities for expansion. There are a limited
number of circuits available, once these are used up any additional
services will have to be protected by conventional fuses or circuit
breakers - seems to make the box a little pointless.
The Pro version is not that limited, is intended for full IFR panel, which
is what I have, with several pins available for expansion.
- The box is expensive compared to fuses.
Not when you have to physically install each, do the labor to replace any
that blow, etc. I had full hardware priced for CB & fuses system...easily
$500. Add 100 hours of labor to design, and create panel of fuses/CB etc,
and you are over price of VPX.
Advanced Flight Systems thought enough of the concept that they designed
their own box.
- Combining many functions in one box means that any failure becomes a
significant event rather than just an annoyance.
AFAIK, unknown event so far.
- The software is designed and coded to an unknown standard and tested
in an unknown way, neither of which engenders confidence.
Have had no issues, have been operating the system for about 3 yrs.
- The standAFAIKards used to design, build and test the hardware are not
easy
to discern, leading to questions on the long term reliability.
Theoretical, where is data of unreliability?
- Using the box to control trim and flaps using an input from an EFIS
places a huge amount of trust in the software writers where a fault
risks potentially very serious consequences.
Does not use EFIS for input beyond airspeed, only outputs trim/flap position
to EFIS. Position comes from trim motor or a position sensor. Power goes to
trim/flap motor. No extra boxes needed for trim speed control, runaway
protection, wig wag lights.
- Those an have chosen to use this box can be very firm in their
support, and intolerant of those who present an alternative view, flame
suit on!!
Only intolerant of criticism generated by lack of knowledge, not facts.
On the supportive side, the designer (Marc Ausman) is a huge supporter
of homebuilt aviation, and is a director of EAA. The real world
reliability seems to be reasonable.
Data behind that assertion???
My advice would be to start by listing all the electrical functions you
want in your aircraft, then which are key to the safe completion of a
flight. If you have (m)any of these are you content to entrust the
operation of these functions to the VPX? If you are list the cost of
using fuses against other means. Install equipment for as reason!
Peter
No problem with your recommendations, but how electrically dependent is you
aircraft? How critical are items beyond engine ignition? If critical, you
need some independent backup. Are you not planning for portable GPS and Com
radio for back up?
You can't fly commercial activities, so how much pressure is there to fly in
solid IFR? Why would you design electrical system that is critical to
continued flight without independent dual systems?
The VPX offers a lot of convenience and flexibility without hardware issues.
want to switch an item from buss A to B? Just a software reconfigure. Want
to change landing lights wig-wag function? Just software. Ditto for trim or
flap limits. Have you flown an example of your aircraft model? Do you know
how trim dependent it is?
==========
br> fts!)
r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
==========
-
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
==========
FORUMS -
eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
==========
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
==========
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Wingdings><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:navy'>J</span></fo
nt><font
size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'> .. someone once told me that ignorance is bliss
…<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Jan<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Peter Pengilly<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> 25 March 2016
07:23<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Aeroelectric List
(aeroelectric-list@matronics.com)<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re:
AeroElectric-List:
Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Flame
suit is on and I stand by all of my comments. As VPX has control of
trim and
flap motor based on an input from the EFIS any error in this chain
could cause
significant problems. With an IFR aircraft it is just about essential
to have
an alternative power supply to the attitude instrument(s), outside of
the VPX. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>I have
had 25 years experience working with airborne software writers, I don't
trust
them as much as some here seem to! <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On 25 Mar 2016 02:52, "Kelly McMullen" <<a
href="mailto:kellym@aviating.com">kellym@aviating.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: Kelly McMullen
<<a
href="mailto:kellym@aviating.com"
target="_blank">kellym@aviating.com</a>><br>
<br>
Misconceptions from lack of familiarity.<br>
<br>
On 3/24/2016 4:15 PM, Peter Pengilly
wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- The sales pitch is that designing electrical systems and
wiring up is<br>
difficult and this box makes it easy. I don't agree with these
statements!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Never perceived it that way. It does simplify the
wiring.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- It provides limited opportunities for expansion. There are a
limited<br>
number of circuits available, once these are used up any additional<br>
services will have to be protected by conventional fuses or circuit<br>
breakers - seems to make the box a little
pointless.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The Pro version is not that limited, is intended for full IFR
panel,
which is what I have, with several pins available for
expansion.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- The box is expensive compared to
fuses.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Not when you have to physically install each, do the labor to
replace
any that blow, etc. I had full hardware priced for CB & fuses
system...easily $500. Add 100 hours of labor to design, and create
panel of
fuses/CB etc, and you are over price of VPX.<br>
Advanced Flight Systems thought enough of the concept that they
designed their
own box.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Combining many functions in one box means that any failure
becomes a<br>
significant event rather than just an
annoyance.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>AFAIK, unknown event so far.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- The software is designed and coded to an unknown standard and
tested<br>
in an unknown way, neither of which engenders
confidence.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Have had no issues, have been operating the system for about 3
yrs.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- The standAFAIKards used to design, build and test the
hardware are
not easy<br>
to discern, leading to questions on the long term
reliability.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Theoretical,
where is
data of unreliability?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Using the box to control trim and flaps using an input from
an EFIS<br>
places a huge amount of trust in the software writers where a fault<br>
risks potentially very serious
consequences.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Does not use EFIS for input beyond airspeed, only outputs
trim/flap
position to EFIS. Position comes from trim motor or a position sensor.
Power
goes to trim/flap motor. No extra boxes needed for trim speed control,
runaway
protection, wig wag lights.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>- Those an have chosen to use this box can be very firm in
their<br>
support, and intolerant of those who present an alternative view,
flame<br>
suit on!!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>Only
intolerant of
criticism generated by lack of knowledge, not
facts.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'>On the supportive side, the designer (Marc Ausman) is a huge
supporter<br>
of homebuilt aviation, and is a director of EAA. The real world<br>
reliability seems to be reasonable.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
Data behind that assertion???<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
My advice would be to start by listing all the electrical functions
you<br>
want in your aircraft, then which are key to the safe completion of
a<br>
flight. If you have (m)any of these are you content to entrust the<br>
operation of these functions to the VPX? If you are list the cost
of<br>
using fuses against other means. Install equipment for as reason!<br>
<br>
Peter<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>No problem
with your
recommendations, but how electrically dependent is you aircraft? How
critical
are items beyond engine ignition? If critical, you need some
independent
backup. Are you not planning for portable GPS and Com radio for back
up?<br>
You can't fly commercial activities, so how much pressure is there to
fly in
solid IFR? Why would you design electrical system that is critical to
continued
flight without independent dual systems?<br>
The VPX offers a lot of convenience and flexibility without hardware
issues.
want to switch an item from buss A to B? Just a software reconfigure.
Want to
change landing lights wig-wag function? Just software. Ditto for trim
or flap
limits. Have you flown an example of your aircraft model? Do you know
how trim
dependent it is?<br>
<br>
===========<br>
br> fts!)<br>
r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com"
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com<br>
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution<br>
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.<br>
===========<br>
-<br>
Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroEl
ectric-List<br>
===========<br>
FORUMS -<br>
eferrer"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com<br>
===========<br>
b Site -<br>
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.<br>
rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution<br>
===========<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport |
Your assertion that the flap and trim in the VPX is dependent on EFIS is
flat incorrect. It only uses the airspeed to control how fast the trim
motor runs or to prevent exceeding flap airspeed limit, which is
something other systems don't do. You apparently missed that I have
independent power backup to EFIS should something fail in the VPX. I
also have an independent EFIS that isn't dependent on ship's power at
all, which has battery life close to fuel range of the aircraft.
The likely problems a failure of the VPX would cause is same as loss of
alternator. I suppose a circuit could go crazy, so you turn the master
off. I don't trust the VPX any more than I do the alternator or
traditional power layouts. I've seen the failure of voltage regulators
and overvoltage systems and the havoc they cause. If you have planned
correctly, there is no more risk than a traditional fuse and circuit
breaker design. Asserting there is more risk has no demonstrated basis
that I have seen. If you have evidence, please educate us.
On 3/25/2016 12:23 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
> Flame suit is on and I stand by all of my comments. As VPX has control
> of trimou and flap motor based on an input from the EFIS any error in this
> chain could cause significant problems. With an IFR aircraft it is just
> about essential to have an alternative power supply to the attitude
> instrument(s), outside of the VPX.
>
> I have had 25 years experience working with airborne software writers, I
> don't trust them as much as some here seem to!
>
> Peter
>
> On 25 Mar 2016 02:52, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com
> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> wrote:
>
> <kellym@aviating.com <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>>
>
> Misconceptions from lack of familiarity.
>
> On 3/24/2016 4:15 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>
> - The sales pitch is that designing electrical systems and
> wiring up is
> difficult and this box makes it easy. I don't agree with these
> statements!
>
> Never perceived it that way. It does simplify the wiring.
>
> - It provides limited opportunities for expansion. There are a
> limited
> number of circuits available, once these are used up any additional
> services will have to be protected by conventional fuses or circuit
> breakers - seems to make the box a little pointless.
>
> The Pro version is not that limited, is intended for full IFR panel,
> which is what I have, with several pins available for expansion.
>
> - The box is expensive compared to fuses.
>
> Not when you have to physically install each, do the labor to
> replace any that blow, etc. I had full hardware priced for CB &
> fuses system...easily $500. Add 100 hours of labor to design, and
> create panel of fuses/CB etc, and you are over price of VPX.
> Advanced Flight Systems thought enough of the concept that they
> designed their own box.
>
> - Combining many functions in one box means that any failure
> becomes a
> significant event rather than just an annoyance.
>
> AFAIK, unknown event so far.
>
> - The software is designed and coded to an unknown standard and
> tested
> in an unknown way, neither of which engenders confidence.
>
> Have had no issues, have been operating the system for about 3 yrs.
>
> - The standAFAIKards used to design, build and test the hardware
> are not easy
> to discern, leading to questions on the long term reliability.
>
> Theoretical, where is data of unreliability?
>
> - Using the box to control trim and flaps using an input from an
> EFIS
> places a huge amount of trust in the software writers where a fault
> risks potentially very serious consequences.
>
> Does not use EFIS for input beyond airspeed, only outputs trim/flap
> position to EFIS. Position comes from trim motor or a position
> sensor. Power goes to trim/flap motor. No extra boxes needed for
> trim speed control, runaway protection, wig wag lights.
>
> - Those an have chosen to use this box can be very firm in their
> support, and intolerant of those who present an alternative
> view, flame
> suit on!!
>
> Only intolerant of criticism generated by lack of knowledge, not facts.
>
> On the supportive side, the designer (Marc Ausman) is a huge
> supporter
> of homebuilt aviation, and is a director of EAA. The real world
> reliability seems to be reasonable.
>
>
> Data behind that assertion???
>
>
> My advice would be to start by listing all the electrical
> functions you
> want in your aircraft, then which are key to the safe completion
> of a
> flight. If you have (m)any of these are you content to entrust the
> operation of these functions to the VPX? If you are list the cost of
> using fuses against other means. Install equipment for as reason!
>
> Peter
>
> No problem with your recommendations, but how electrically dependent
> is you aircraft? How critical are items beyond engine ignition? If
> critical, you need some independent backup. Are you not planning for
> portable GPS and Com radio for back up?
> You can't fly commercial activities, so how much pressure is there
> to fly in solid IFR? Why would you design electrical system that is
> critical to continued flight without independent dual systems?
> The VPX offers a lot of convenience and flexibility without hardware
> issues. want to switch an item from buss A to B? Just a software
> reconfigure. Want to change landing lights wig-wag function? Just
> software. Ditto for trim or flap limits. Have you flown an example
> of your aircraft model? Do you know how trim dependent it is?
>
> ==========
> br> fts!)
> r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> ==========
> -
> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
> ==========
> FORUMS -
> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> ==========
> b Site -
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
> ==========
>
>
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Subject: | Charging circuit: Sanity check |
Greetings,
I need a sanity check on my current thoughts for the charging circuit in my
RV-7.
Please note that this is *not* a typical Lyc installation, so many of the
assumed requirements/limits do not apply.
Engine: Mazda Renesis automotive conversion with total electrical
dependency.
Alternator(s): 2 ea identical ND internally regulated alternators, each
rated at 60 amps.
(This choice was driven by both budget constraints and simplicity of
installation)
My goals/choices are:
1. 'Unlimited' availability of electrical power, to avoid in-route
diversion in the case of alternator failure. I accept a single battery,due
to the very small likelihood of battery failure. Fuel will easily outlast
any but very big/heavy batteries. A PC680 is good for only ~45 minutes with
only the engine consuming electrons; much less time with avionics on line.
2.Redundant paths of power to the buss, due to the engine's total
dependence on electricity.
3. Ability to check both alternators for proper operation before flight.
4. Optional 'auto-start' for 2nd alt, if alt1 goes offline for any reason.
5.Since the auto engine accessory end allows the 'backup' alternator to be
the same size as the primary, I'm willing to use one buss and shed
individual loads manually, if multiple failures require it.
6.Continuous electrical load for the engine/fuel pump/instrumentation is
~15 amps at full engine output (yes, it varies). This may seem high, but
with high pressure injection pumps and injectors, plus high energy
automotive coils, this is pretty 'normal', and has been verified by others
running similar systems.
7.Balance of additional avionics & other loads, assuming night flight with
heated pitot on, would be an additional 27 amps, worse case. There's
minimal likelihood of flying this plane in those conditions, but it could
happen, so...
8. Intermittent loads of significance would be: fuel transfer pump (8A),
flaps (10A), and landing light (5A).
The attached rough sketch shows the IR alternators controlled by regular
continuous duty solenoids incorporating Bob's OV modules for OV protection.
The two switches supplying (redundant) power to the buss are 50A DC rated
toggles (not a hard requirement, but simpler than additional
contactor/switch pairs).
The diode (high current Schottky's are cheap these days) is to prevent
powering alt2's contactor control circuit unless alt2's switch was closed,
but provide a redundant path from battery to buss.
I desired 'autostart' for alt2, so I added the contactor circuit drawn
below the buss. It's intended to be a normally closed relay, held open by
the same circuit that supplies power to alt1's contactor.
As I type this, I realize that the NC relay needs a diode between its
output terminal and the 5A CB, so that it can't be required to carry buss
loads when alt2's switch is closed.
Any issues with performing a 'mag check' (output check) of the two 50A
switches and their alt's, with the engine near idle power & minimal loads?
(I'm aware of 'load dump' issues when cycling IR alts at high power.)
A related question I'd like an answer to is this: If using internally
regulated alternators, is there any issue with leaving both on line at the
same time, if they are diode-isolated?
Sorry for the long post, but I thought a detailed narrative was required.
Remember, auto engine, identical dual internally regulated alternators.
Thanks,
Charlie
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport |
That's a rather angry post, let's try to take the emotion out of this
discussion.
Looking at the flap and trim control only. The VPX is a software driven
machine. It takes switch inputs, recognises the pilot has requested a
certain action and switches power to a service. The logic is executed by
software. I do not know what standard was used to design, code and test
the software. The VPX has full control of the flap and trim motors and
can drive them to full deflection at any time it chooses, either would
be rather bad news in most aircraft, particularly at cruise speed . If
that were to happen at a slow rate I believe the only way to stop it
would be to shut down the whole VPX - I'm not even sure if that is
possible. I hope there are some protections built into the VPX to
prevent un-commanded movement, but I don't know as I cannot find that
data in the public domain. Therefore we only have the assertions of the
designers that motor run-aways will not happen.
EFISs are also software driven machines, all of the common uncertified
EFISs are in the same boat - I have asked the manufacturers how their
software was written, they have declined to answer.
So we have a device of unknown quality passing data to a second device
of equally unknown quality to control a function that we really need to
work correctly all of the time. That is rather too much trust to put in
people I have never met and who are unwilling to describe how they
ensure their design goals are achieved in their products.
However good a VPX is at managing an electrical system, from my
perspective this type of function is taking unnecessary risks for very
little gain. It is also expensive when a few fuses will carry out the
same job.
Peter
On 25/03/2016 20:35, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Your assertion that the flap and trim in the VPX is dependent on EFIS
> is flat incorrect. It only uses the airspeed to control how fast the
> trim motor runs or to prevent exceeding flap airspeed limit, which is
> something other systems don't do. You apparently missed that I have
> independent power backup to EFIS should something fail in the VPX. I
> also have an independent EFIS that isn't dependent on ship's power at
> all, which has battery life close to fuel range of the aircraft.
> The likely problems a failure of the VPX would cause is same as loss
> of alternator. I suppose a circuit could go crazy, so you turn the
> master off. I don't trust the VPX any more than I do the alternator or
> traditional power layouts. I've seen the failure of voltage regulators
> and overvoltage systems and the havoc they cause. If you have planned
> correctly, there is no more risk than a traditional fuse and circuit
> breaker design. Asserting there is more risk has no demonstrated basis
> that I have seen. If you have evidence, please educate us.
>
> On 3/25/2016 12:23 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>> Flame suit is on and I stand by all of my comments. As VPX has control
>> of trimou and flap motor based on an input from the EFIS any error
>> in this
>> chain could cause significant problems. With an IFR aircraft it is just
>> about essential to have an alternative power supply to the attitude
>> instrument(s), outside of the VPX.
>>
>> I have had 25 years experience working with airborne software writers, I
>> don't trust them as much as some here seem to!
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> On 25 Mar 2016 02:52, "Kelly McMullen" <kellym@aviating.com
>> <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>> wrote:
>>
>> <kellym@aviating.com <mailto:kellym@aviating.com>>
>>
>> Misconceptions from lack of familiarity.
>>
>> On 3/24/2016 4:15 PM, Peter Pengilly wrote:
>>
>> - The sales pitch is that designing electrical systems and
>> wiring up is
>> difficult and this box makes it easy. I don't agree with these
>> statements!
>>
>> Never perceived it that way. It does simplify the wiring.
>>
>> - It provides limited opportunities for expansion. There are a
>> limited
>> number of circuits available, once these are used up any
>> additional
>> services will have to be protected by conventional fuses or
>> circuit
>> breakers - seems to make the box a little pointless.
>>
>> The Pro version is not that limited, is intended for full IFR panel,
>> which is what I have, with several pins available for expansion.
>>
>> - The box is expensive compared to fuses.
>>
>> Not when you have to physically install each, do the labor to
>> replace any that blow, etc. I had full hardware priced for CB &
>> fuses system...easily $500. Add 100 hours of labor to design, and
>> create panel of fuses/CB etc, and you are over price of VPX.
>> Advanced Flight Systems thought enough of the concept that they
>> designed their own box.
>>
>> - Combining many functions in one box means that any failure
>> becomes a
>> significant event rather than just an annoyance.
>>
>> AFAIK, unknown event so far.
>>
>> - The software is designed and coded to an unknown standard and
>> tested
>> in an unknown way, neither of which engenders confidence.
>>
>> Have had no issues, have been operating the system for about 3 yrs.
>>
>> - The standAFAIKards used to design, build and test the hardware
>> are not easy
>> to discern, leading to questions on the long term reliability.
>>
>> Theoretical, where is data of unreliability?
>>
>> - Using the box to control trim and flaps using an input from an
>> EFIS
>> places a huge amount of trust in the software writers where a
>> fault
>> risks potentially very serious consequences.
>>
>> Does not use EFIS for input beyond airspeed, only outputs trim/flap
>> position to EFIS. Position comes from trim motor or a position
>> sensor. Power goes to trim/flap motor. No extra boxes needed for
>> trim speed control, runaway protection, wig wag lights.
>>
>> - Those an have chosen to use this box can be very firm in their
>> support, and intolerant of those who present an alternative
>> view, flame
>> suit on!!
>>
>> Only intolerant of criticism generated by lack of knowledge, not
>> facts.
>>
>> On the supportive side, the designer (Marc Ausman) is a huge
>> supporter
>> of homebuilt aviation, and is a director of EAA. The real world
>> reliability seems to be reasonable.
>>
>>
>> Data behind that assertion???
>>
>>
>> My advice would be to start by listing all the electrical
>> functions you
>> want in your aircraft, then which are key to the safe completion
>> of a
>> flight. If you have (m)any of these are you content to
>> entrust the
>> operation of these functions to the VPX? If you are list the
>> cost of
>> using fuses against other means. Install equipment for as
>> reason!
>>
>> Peter
>>
>> No problem with your recommendations, but how electrically dependent
>> is you aircraft? How critical are items beyond engine ignition? If
>> critical, you need some independent backup. Are you not planning for
>> portable GPS and Com radio for back up?
>> You can't fly commercial activities, so how much pressure is there
>> to fly in solid IFR? Why would you design electrical system that is
>> critical to continued flight without independent dual systems?
>> The VPX offers a lot of convenience and flexibility without hardware
>> issues. want to switch an item from buss A to B? Just a software
>> reconfigure. Want to change landing lights wig-wag function? Just
>> software. Ditto for trim or flap limits. Have you flown an example
>> of your aircraft model? Do you know how trim dependent it is?
>>
>> ==========
>> br> fts!)
>> r> > href="http://www.buildersbooks.com" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">www.buildersbooks.com
>> rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> ==========
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer"
>> target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Charging circuit: Sanity check |
The relay under the bus will always be energized whenever the main bus is on, unless
the 5 amp breaker is tripped or pulled off. I do not understand its function.
It is my understanding that two alternators on line at the same time will fight
each other and cause the system voltage to oscillate unless the voltage set-point
of one of them is set a few tenths of a volt below the other one.
Consider using contactors or heavy duty relays instead of 50 amp switches. Relays
allow remote control so that power can be shut off near the battery. That
feature is important in the event of a forced landing or crash to prevent sparks
from igniting leaking fuel.
Consider supplying power to the man bus at both ends.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=454159#454159
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Subject: | Brass Strap alternative in Z-19RB |
I have the batteries under the pilot and co-pilot seats. Z-19RB is designed
with both the batteries together and hence the connections between the main
battery contactor and the engine battery contactor is shown as a brass
strap.
Can I replace this with a cable instead? The length would be approximately
24". If yes, what guage of cable should I be using?
Thanks
Hari
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Subject: | Re: Vertical Power X-VP Pro or Sport |
Who wouldn't be annoyed with someone making negative assertions with
zero data, against a product simply because the company won't hand over
their proprietary software/circuitry, etc. Just because you haven't been
given the opportunity to copy their design, critique their methods, etc.
that they spent good money/time developing.
About as useful a post as one about various flavors of politicians.
Doesn't advance the knowledge of the equipment one bit. Just a waste of
bandwidth. All based on zero information, just speculation.
Out of respect for Bob, I won't say more.
Would like information on any failures, with details, to help us better
understand the risks and how to avoid them.
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Subject: | Re: Charging circuit: Sanity check |
On 3/25/2016 8:16 PM, user9253 wrote:
>
> The relay under the bus will always be energized whenever the main bus is on,
unless the 5 amp breaker is tripped or pulled off. I do not understand its function.
> It is my understanding that two alternators on line at the same time will fight
each other and cause the system voltage to oscillate unless the voltage set-point
of one of them is set a few tenths of a volt below the other one.
> Consider using contactors or heavy duty relays instead of 50 amp switches.
Relays allow remote control so that power can be shut off near the battery.
That feature is important in the event of a forced landing or crash to prevent
sparks from igniting leaking fuel.
> Consider supplying power to the man bus at both ends.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
Joe,
Thanks for the reply. Just took another look at my rough sketch; I drew
the switch arm incorrectly for the way it is intended to operate. The
relay in question is SPDT; the 'on' state drives the switch element away
from the load. Opening alt1's CB removes power, passing power through
the other CB to alt2's contactor.
I haven't ruled out using contactors, but prefer the switch option. Not
included in the rough drawing are planned fusible links on the lines
feeding the 50A switches. I agree with the concern, but after a post
mentioning similar setups in certified a/c (likely without fusible link
protection), I decided to explore the option. The 'upside', at least in
my head, would be removing all the extra failure points that show up
with the extra components. (The two alt contactors & starter contactor
are all within a few inches of the battery and each other, so should
need no extra protection.)
I've heard the same thing about regulator 'hunting' if there are two
alts feeding the same buss, but the examples given seem to be of
externally regulated alts. I do know there are twins with I am curious
about whether this will happen with internally regulated alts. Even if I
must forgo simultaneous operation, I hope I can still do a pre-takeoff
check by pulling alt1's CB & opening the switch (or contactor..) on that
side. Not crazy about pulling the CB before each flight, but it *is* a
pull-able breaker. And I'd probably only do it on cross countries, where
I'd really need alt2 for endurance.
Charlie
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