---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/05/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:28 AM - Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Werner Schneider) 2. 05:09 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (C&K) 3. 05:38 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Werner Schneider) 4. 05:55 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Carlos Trigo) 5. 06:23 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Werner Schneider) 6. 07:07 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Daniel Hooper) 7. 07:18 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Stein Bruch) 8. 07:54 AM - Re: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 07:56 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Werner Schneider) 10. 08:07 AM - Re: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 08:46 AM - Re: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" (Stein Bruch) 12. 08:52 AM - Re: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 (ashleysc@broadstripe.net) 13. 01:21 PM - Re: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:06 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" From: Werner Schneider For the folks going to SnF, can you have a talk and look at the Garmin boot for this: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod514383.html interesting price, in difference to Dynon D2 it has pitot and static connection in addition to GPS, wonder how the horizon is setup (as no AHRS). Please question them and post some feedback! Cheers Werner ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:09:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" From: C&K Looks like it might be similar to the trutrak gemini which uses static pressure to "align and stabilize" a rate gyro in pitch and gps track to do the same in roll. Entirely adequate for me as an IFR rated pilot flying a VFR only aircraft or as an IFR backup. A huge improvement over needle ball and airspeed. However I would not accept such an architecture as the primary ADI in a high performance aircraft. For example it will slowly align to show a level pitch attitude if the VSI is zero. Because that could be fatal as you slow it uses pitot pressure to warn you of low airspeed. Similarly in a sideslip with a constant heading it will gradually align to show wings level. So great for most uses but perhaps not so much for things like unusual attitude recovery. Again I'm only guessing that it might be similar to the trutrak gemini which I'm familiar with. Ken On 05/04/2016 7:26 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > For the folks going to SnF, can you have a talk and look at the Garmin > boot for this: > > https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod514383.html > > interesting price, in difference to Dynon D2 it has pitot and static > connection in addition to GPS, wonder how the horizon is setup (as no > AHRS). > > Please question them and post some feedback! > > Cheers Werner > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:52 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" From: Werner Schneider Thanks Ken, and that is exactly what I wanted to know in order to compare the different backup instruments available :) Cheers Werner On 05.04.2016 14:07, C&K wrote: > > Looks like it might be similar to the trutrak gemini which uses static > pressure to "align and stabilize" a rate gyro in pitch and gps track to > do the same in roll. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:00 AM PST US From: Carlos Trigo Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" Hello Werner I will try to do it, if the GARMIN booth has no line to it ... Cheers from Florida Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 05/04/2016, s 07:26, Werner Schneider escreveu: > > For the folks going to SnF, can you have a talk and look at the Garmin boot for this: > > https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod514383.html > > interesting price, in difference to Dynon D2 it has pitot and static connection in addition to GPS, wonder how the horizon is setup (as no AHRS). > > Please question them and post some feedback! > > Cheers Werner > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:34 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" From: Werner Schneider Thanks Carlos, like Ken pointed out most interesting will be how the attitude is done so loosing static or dyn pressure will not impact attitude. enjoy the show! Cheers Werner On 05.04.2016 14:52, Carlos Trigo wrote: > > Hello Werner > > I will try to do it, if the GARMIN booth has no line to it ... > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:22 AM PST US From: Daniel Hooper Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" > wonder how the horizon is setup (as no AHRS). Is the concern that it doesn't have a *remote* AHRS box? I'm not sure why such a thing is necessary when you can fit all the gyros in the panel-mounted instrument. Daniel > On Apr 5, 2016, at 6:26 AM, Werner Schneider wrote: > > > For the folks going to SnF, can you have a talk and look at the Garmin boot for this: > > https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod514383.html > > interesting price, in difference to Dynon D2 it has pitot and static connection in addition to GPS, wonder how the horizon is setup (as no AHRS). > > Please question them and post some feedback! > > Cheers Werner > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:25 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" I think you may have mistaken about the ADAHRS portion...not only does it have an ADAHRS in it, but when connected to a full G3X system it can act as a backup ADAHRS for the primary system as well as its own. Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 6:26 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" --> For the folks going to SnF, can you have a talk and look at the Garmin boot for this: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod514383.html interesting price, in difference to Dynon D2 it has pitot and static connection in addition to GPS, wonder how the horizon is setup (as no AHRS). Please question them and post some feedback! Cheers Werner ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:03 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 At 10:54 PM 4/4/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >Unfortunately I'm not a candidate for your North Carolina >meeting. Do you ever get out to the north-west coast, say Seattle-ish? >Cheers! Stu. >PS: I have your manual, and a good piece of work it is! >Stuart C. Ashley >1638 Penn Cove Road >Oak Harbor, WA 98277 >ashleysc@broadstripe.net >360-678-5255 Got an EAA Chapter that would like to host one . . . and a suitable facility? Have Power-Point on a thumb drive, will travel. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:21 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" From: Werner Schneider Thanks Stein, probably just did not write enough details :) and did not see it protruding behind the screen like a Dynon D10, so got it wrong. There are different ADAHRS out there each having a certain software using different parameters to correct for drifting of the Gyros, some of them better some worse, it would be a very interesting thing to know which platform is using what algorithm/sensordata to correct, as this will have an influence on how the attitude indication will behave (as Ken noted). For IFR I believe this is a very valid point to look at. Remember that Aeroperu Flight 603 a B757 accident off Chiles coast, 3 static ports were blocked with masking tape bringing a lot of erroneous indications in the cockpit during night time. I would like to have two independent system if possible in the Cockpit, but would like to know how each of it would react to some errors in the signals received. Any list around detailing this? Cheers On 05.04.2016 16:17, Stein Bruch wrote: > > I think you may have mistaken about the ADAHRS portion...not only does it > have an ADAHRS in it, but when connected to a full G3X system it can act as > a backup ADAHRS for the primary system as well as its own. > > Cheers, > Stein > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:26 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 At 10:54 PM 4/4/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >Unfortunately I'm not a candidate for your North Carolina >meeting. Do you ever get out to the north-west coast, say Seattle-ish? >Cheers! Stu. >PS: I have your manual, and a good piece of work it is! >Stuart C. Ashley >1638 Penn Cove Road >Oak Harbor, WA 98277 >ashleysc@broadstripe.net >360-678-5255 Stewart, Got an EAA Chapter that would like to host one . . . and a suitable facility? Have Power-Point on a thumb drive, will travel. P.S. Here's a little information sheet on how to get the ball rolling on a seminar http://tinyurl.com/6t85jr3 Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:58 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" Note that regarding a "protruding ADAHRS", there really is no such relationship between how big an instrument is and what sensors it has in it anymore. For example, even the new certified digital attitude indicators are only about 1" deep in totality (think Sandia, RC Allen, etc..). Technology has changed drastically in short time periods. I doubt you're going to get any technical details on the aiding (if any), as most of the companies hold that pretty close to their chest anymore. Additionally, the new crop of sensors are their core are really darned good (not laser ring gyro good, but still good). That 757 accident was drilled into our brains at the airlines, but the stuff in a 57/67 is literally archaic in comparison to what these new systems have in them (and we hopefully don't have cleaners putting speed tape over our static ports when they dynol the gear and such)! Anyway, Here's some text directly from the Garmin engineers....(copied from a post of theirs in an online forum): ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- When we developed the original product goals and features, high on the list was a requirement that the unit be the most robust and trusted backup instrument on the market for customers using any brand of EFIS system, including Garmin G3X and G3X Touch. To accomplish this, we knew we needed to maintain a high level of independence and dissimilarity in both the hardware and software design such that a common mode fault in either hardware or software that could simultaneously affect both the G3X system and the backup instrument be extremely improbable, if not impossible. We started by choosing brand new attitude sensors. We have great sensors in the GSU 25 ADAHRS and would have liked to re-use those, but to have the best assurance that no common mode fault of these sensors could possibly jeopardize the display of attitude information (however remote!), new sensors were chosen, incorporated, and tested. On the software side we started with a brand new simplified Garmin operating system that isn't common with the one used in the G3X displays (which is quite large, complex, and capable in comparison). We kept out many features common to EFIS systems like internal database loading/use (and thus synthetic vision) and Bluetooth to keep from having to re-use or re-develop large bodies of code that are used in the G3X displays. Not only is the G5 display rather compact in comparison to the big displays and thus not the best place to attempt to show synthetic vision, but we didn't want a backup instrument with over a million lines of code! We even developed a new graphics library that operates very differently than the one used in the G3X displays. Even the backlight is handled in a dissimilar manner. Instead of following an aircraft lighting bus that might be common to the large displays, the G5 uses either photocell backlighting control or manual (your choice). All of these features in combination with built-in independent WAAS GPS receiver, airspeed, and altitude sensors means you can install this instrument with confidence in any aircraft regardless of the brand of EFIS system you are using. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------- Cheers, Stein -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Werner Schneider Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 9:55 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Garmin's new low price approach to "EFIS" --> Thanks Stein, probably just did not write enough details :) and did not see it protruding behind the screen like a Dynon D10, so got it wrong. There are different ADAHRS out there each having a certain software using different parameters to correct for drifting of the Gyros, some of them better some worse, it would be a very interesting thing to know which platform is using what algorithm/sensordata to correct, as this will have an influence on how the attitude indication will behave (as Ken noted). For IFR I believe this is a very valid point to look at. Remember that Aeroperu Flight 603 a B757 accident off Chiles coast, 3 static ports were blocked with masking tape bringing a lot of erroneous indications in the cockpit during night time. I would like to have two independent system if possible in the Cockpit, but would like to know how each of it would react to some errors in the signals received. Any list around detailing this? Cheers On 05 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:32 AM PST US From: ashleysc@broadstripe.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 Hi Bob; Thanks for your response.=C2- I am secretary of our local EAA Chapter 818 .=C2- We meet in the "Meeting Room" of the Skagit Airport Terminal Buildi ng, Burlington, WA=C2-on the second Saturday of each month 10:00 AM=C2- to noon, with the following exceptions: 1.=C2- No July meeting.=C2- We run the Arlington Air Show FlyMart and d o the temporary fencing of the airport in early July.=C2- No time for a m eeting or a=C2-lecture. 2.=C2- August meeting is in Concrete, WA where we have a big BBQ and shor t meeting.=C2- This is partly in a=C2-large hangar and partly outdoors. =C2- Not a good time for a lecture. 3.=C2- We have a brief meeting in December, but the prime emphasis is on a big "Christmas Party" that we have at a large local restaurant.=C2- Not a good time for a lecture. So you see there are actually 9 good times per year.=C2- Our meetings usu ally have about 40 to 60 attendees, but for a special occasion, we would ad vertise to other nearby EAA chapters and builders who want to learn best pr actices for wiring their aircraft.=C2- Our usual "Program" is one hour lo ng (11:00 to 12:00), but this can be extended for "something special."=C2 - Let me know if you want to "take this to the next level," and I will pu t you in touch with our Program Chair, who is also the chapter Vice Preside nt. Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2016 7:52:16 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 At 10:54 PM 4/4/2016, you wrote: Hi Bob; Unfortunately I'm not a candidate for your North Carolina meeting.=C2- Do you ever get out to the north-west coast, say Seattle-ish? Cheers!=C2-=C2- Stu. PS: I have your manual, and a good piece of work it is! Stuart C. Ashley 1638 Penn Cove Road Oak Harbor, WA=C2- 98277 ashleysc@broadstripe.net 360-678-5255 =C2- Got an EAA Chapter that would like to host =C2- one . . . and a suitable facility? Have =C2- Power-Point on a thumb drive, will travel. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:09 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Charlotte, NC Weekend Seminar May 21-22 At 10:51 AM 4/5/2016, you wrote: >Hi Bob; >Thanks for your response. I am secretary of our local EAA Chapter >818. We meet in the "Meeting Room" of the Skagit Airport Terminal >Building, Burlington, WA on the second Saturday of each month 10:00 >AM to noon, with the following exceptions: >1. No July meeting. We run the Arlington Air Show FlyMart and do >the temporary fencing of the airport in early July. No time for a >meeting or a lecture. >2. August meeting is in Concrete, WA where we have a big BBQ and >short meeting. This is partly in a large hangar and partly >outdoors. Not a good time for a lecture. >3. We have a brief meeting in December, but the prime emphasis is >on a big "Christmas Party" that we have at a large local >restaurant. Not a good time for a lecture. The programs I'm offering are 12hr courses conducted over a weekend. See . . . http://tinyurl.com/hfeed5f http://tinyurl.com/z5hdcq2 I can offer adjuncts to regulator chapter meetings only when the venue is 100 miles or less distant . . . and those are tuition- free. 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