Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Franz Fux)
2. 01:02 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Stephen Richards)
3. 05:41 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Alec Myers)
4. 06:01 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Neal George)
5. 06:30 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 06:45 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Alec Myers)
7. 07:01 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Neal George)
8. 08:58 AM - Opinions on options (s64woody@aol.com)
9. 10:28 AM - Re: Opinions on options (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:29 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Stephen Richards)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Wrong email address - Re-send pls |
I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive
and uncontrollable spam.
Please re-send your email to my new address:
franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future.
Apologies for the inconvenience,
Franz Fux
Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond
www.lastfrontierheli.com
---
Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA
Tel: 250 558 7980
Fax: 250 558 7981
Reservations: 1-888-655-5566
Message 2
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| Subject: | Problem with starting |
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with starting |
Neal
I see from the TCM service manual that faults in the windings of the Energizer
motor are not repairable. SIL02-04 says the TCM replacement is now the Iskra starter
that you don't recommend.
Given that I have the old-style starter adapter If I need a new motor which would
you recommend?
> On Jun 18, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Neal George <ngeorge@continentalmotors.aero> wrote:
>
>
> Canada and the cost/aggravation of Customs makes it tough.
>
> If you have a Hartzell Energizer, the probability of the starter motor being
the problem is low unless it has been badly abused. Pull the motor and take it
to your local automotive alternator & starter repair shop - they ought to be
able to test it.
>
> Neal
>
> -----Original Message-----
> On Behalf Of Alec Myers
> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 9:50 AM
>
>
> Hi Neal
>
> That's very kind! The motor is an original Continental heavy one - direct drive.
No evidence of slipping in the adapter. Changing the adapter involves partially
removing the engine to gain clearance which I'd like to avoid if possible.
Can you get me a stater to borrow to Canada where I am?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Problem with starting |
Did I misunderstand that you just had the motor overhauled?
All Continental starter adapters have the same motor interface.
The current starter adapter for Sandcast engines is indeed different and is not
interchangeable with the older version. If you have the old-style adapter, if
it fails you will need to have it overhauled. Your engine can be modified to
accept the new adapter, but requires splitting the crankcase.
The Energizer starter motor from Hartzell Engine Technologies is the preferred
unit.
I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering relay points
more to circuit / system and low voltage issues.
neal
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Alec Myers
Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2016 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with starting
Neal
I see from the TCM service manual that faults in the windings of the Energizer
motor are not repairable. SIL02-04 says the TCM replacement is now the Iskra starter
that you don't recommend.
Given that I have the old-style starter adapter If I need a new motor which would
you recommend?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Problem with starting |
>
>I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering
>relay points more to circuit / system and low voltage issues.
>
>neal
Except that a contactor powered from the same
battery that is being pulled down by what amounts
to continuous stall current may well drop-out
during closures only to re-close when the contacts
break and stall-current goes away.
12v battery contactors drop at about 2v . . . and
are not likely to be candidates for 'buzzing' but
it's not impossible. A easy experiment would call
for powering the starter contactor from a separate
source . . . like another battery. It may well
stop chattering. But the energies being circulated
will be profound.
I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the
symptom. This implies a root cause that
is transient or loose to rattle around. Having
the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass
in the armature windings could account for such
behavior.
It would sure be illuminating to put a data acquisition
system on it to capture all the voltages/currents
during the event.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Problem with starting |
The strangest symptom is that twice the motor has cut out (and the bus volta
ge was pulled down) mid-crank while the prop was already turning at a good s
tarting speed. I think that suggests it's not a bad spot on the commutator, f
or example.
I can rule out mechanical seizure at the crank because when the motor cut, t
he prop immediately bounced back off a compression stroke, and (I think) I c
an rule out a starter jam because the engine has started and run since.
I thought I was onto something with a possible fracture in the field winding
but that won't explain things if the motor isn't shunt wound.
> On Jun 19, 2016, at 09:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
>
> I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering relay po
ints more to circuit / system and low voltage issues.
>
> neal
Except that a contactor powered from the same
battery that is being pulled down by what amounts
to continuous stall current may well drop-out
during closures only to re-close when the contacts
break and stall-current goes away.
12v battery contactors drop at about 2v . . . and
are not likely to be candidates for 'buzzing' but
it's not impossible. A easy experiment would call
for powering the starter contactor from a separate
source . . . like another battery. It may well
stop chattering. But the energies being circulated
will be profound.
I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the
symptom. This implies a root cause that
is transient or loose to rattle around. Having
the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass
in the armature windings could account for such
behavior.
It would sure be illuminating to put a data acquisition
system on it to capture all the voltages/currents
during the event.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Problem with starting |
I considered that, thought it unlikely since the motor was recently service
d.
I had a similar failure on my 99 Suburban.
Turn the key; nothing.
Smack the starter with a mallet, it would come to life...
neal
I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the
symptom. This implies a root cause that
is transient or loose to rattle around. Having
the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass
in the armature windings could account for such
behavior.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Opinions on options |
Architecture: Twin battery,alternator and buss system with an electrically dependent
fuel system. Basically, two complete systems with a emergency cross-tie
relay. There are three fuse blocks, one of which I can power via diodes from
each system.
Question: Opinions wanted on FEMA between just powering each boost pump system
off of one of the alternators or using a dedicated, diode powered fuse block
as an essential buss. I can see simplicity in the first option. The second has
some elegance, but there is something of a single point failure there, as well.
Scott
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Opinions on options |
From: s64woody@aol.com
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Opinions on options
Architecture: Twin battery,alternator and buss system with
an electrically dependent fuel system. Basically, two complete
systems with a emergency cross-tie relay. There are three
fuse blocks, one of which I can power via diodes from each system.
Question: Opinions wanted on FEMA between just powering each
boost pump system off of one of the alternators or using a
dedicated, diode powered fuse block as an essential buss. I
can see simplicity in the first option. The second has some
elegance, but there is something of a single point failure there, as well.
That may be much more electrical system than
is necessary . . . but if you're already committed,
run each pump from separate battery busses.
Likelihood of loosing both busses during expenditure
of one tank of fuel is vanishingly small.
If any part of your engine support is electrically
driven, run those items directly from battery
busses as well.
If you have bad smells in the cockpit, you want
to make the entire electrical system "cold" without
affecting engine operation.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Problem with starting |
This still suggests to me that a intermittent ground is shorting out the ar
mature or field is shorting out .
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: "Alec Myers" <alec@alecmyers.com>
Sent: =8E19/=8E06/=8E2016 14:51
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with starting
The strangest symptom is that twice the motor has cut out (and the bus volt
age was pulled down) mid-crank while the prop was already turning at a good
starting speed. I think that suggests it's not a bad spot on the commutato
r, for example.
I can rule out mechanical seizure at the crank because when the motor cut,
the prop immediately bounced back off a compression stroke, and (I think) I
can rule out a starter jam because the engine has started and run since.
I thought I was onto something with a possible fracture in the field windin
g but that won't explain things if the motor isn't shunt wound.
On Jun 19, 2016, at 09:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr
ic.com> wrote:
I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering relay poi
nts more to circuit / system and low voltage issues.
neal
Except that a contactor powered from the same
battery that is being pulled down by what amounts
to continuous stall current may well drop-out
during closures only to re-close when the contacts
break and stall-current goes away.
12v battery contactors drop at about 2v . . . and
are not likely to be candidates for 'buzzing' but
it's not impossible. A easy experiment would call
for powering the starter contactor from a separate
source . . . like another battery. It may well
stop chattering. But the energies being circulated
will be profound.
I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the
symptom. This implies a root cause that
is transient or loose to rattle around. Having
the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass
in the armature windings could account for such
behavior.
It would sure be illuminating to put a data acquisition
system on it to capture all the voltages/currents
during the event.
Bob . . .
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