AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Mon 06/20/16


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:44 AM - Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Franz Fux)
     2. 12:50 AM - Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls (John Tipton)
     3. 12:55 AM - Re: Problem with starting (Bob Verwey)
     4. 05:55 AM - Parts (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net)
     5. 06:12 AM - Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     6. 06:33 AM - Re: Parts (rayj)
     7. 09:53 AM - Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Eric Page)
     8. 02:57 PM - Dual batteries or dual alternators? (erich weaver)
     9. 03:34 PM - Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Justin Jones)
    10. 03:37 PM - Re: Parts (David Lloyd)
    11. 03:49 PM - Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Justin Jones)
    12. 04:07 PM - Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (erich weaver)
    13. 04:45 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (C&K)
    14. 04:53 PM - Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (user9253)
    15. 05:49 PM - Re: Problem with starting (Alec Myers)
    16. 05:51 PM - OT: PCB coating removal (rayj)
    17. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Justin Jones)
    18. 06:34 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Ken Ryan)
    19. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Justin Jones)
    20. 07:04 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Ken Ryan)
    21. 07:26 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Justin Jones)
    22. 09:59 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    23. 10:16 PM - Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    24. 10:18 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    25. 10:27 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    26. 10:35 PM - Re: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:44:04 AM PST US
    From: "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com>
    Subject: Wrong email address - Re-send pls
    I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive and uncontrollable spam. Please re-send your email to my new address: franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. Apologies for the inconvenience, Franz Fux Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond www.lastfrontierheli.com --- Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA Tel: 250 558 7980 Fax: 250 558 7981 Reservations: 1-888-655-5566


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:50:48 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls
    From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Hi Guys This daily email is getting annoying now Regards John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x---- > On 20 Jun 2016, at 08:40 am, "Franz Fux" <franz@lastfrontierheli.com> wrote: > > > I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive > and uncontrollable spam. > > Please re-send your email to my new address: > > franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. > > Apologies for the inconvenience, > > Franz Fux > Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond > www.lastfrontierheli.com > --- > > Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA > > Tel: 250 558 7980 > Fax: 250 558 7981 > Reservations: 1-888-655-5566 > > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:55:09 AM PST US
    From: Bob Verwey <bob.verwey@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Problem with starting
    I had the same problem recently....the thrust washer on the starter was worn and this caused the end of the commutator to short out intermittently. Very frustrating as the starter bench tested fine... On 19 June 2016 at 19:28, Stephen Richards <stephencliverichards@gmail.com> wrote: > This still suggests to me that a intermittent ground is shorting out the > armature or field is shorting out . > Clive > ------------------------------ > From: Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> > Sent: =8E19/=8E06/=8E2016 14:51 > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with starting > > The strangest symptom is that twice the motor has cut out (and the bus > voltage was pulled down) mid-crank while the prop was already turning at a > good starting speed. I think that suggests it's not a bad spot on the > commutator, for example. > > I can rule out mechanical seizure at the crank because when the motor cut , > the prop immediately bounced back off a compression stroke, and (I think) I > can rule out a starter jam because the engine has started and run since. > > I thought I was onto something with a possible fracture in the field > winding but that won't explain things if the motor isn't shunt wound. > > > On Jun 19, 2016, at 09:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > > I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering relay > points more to circuit / system and low voltage issues. > > neal > > > Except that a contactor powered from the same > battery that is being pulled down by what amounts > to continuous stall current may well drop-out > during closures only to re-close when the contacts > break and stall-current goes away. > > 12v battery contactors drop at about 2v . . . and > are not likely to be candidates for 'buzzing' but > it's not impossible. A easy experiment would call > for powering the starter contactor from a separate > source . . . like another battery. It may well > stop chattering. But the energies being circulated > will be profound. > > I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the > symptom. This implies a root cause that > is transient or loose to rattle around. Having > the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass > in the armature windings could account for such > behavior. > > It would sure be illuminating to put a data acquisition > system on it to capture all the voltages/currents > during the event. > > Bob . . . > -- Best... Bob Verwey


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:55:38 AM PST US
    From: BobbyPaulk@comcast.net
    Subject: Parts
    When asked about aircraft parts or test at an automotive parts store I tell them it is for "my very high clearance off road vehicle".


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:12:10 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls
    At 02:49 AM 6/20/2016, you wrote: ><jmtipton@btopenworld.com> > >Hi Guys > >This daily email is getting annoying now I've emailed him to request that he UNsubscribe the old address from the List . . . Bob . . .


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:33:03 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Parts
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    The one I use is the part is for an airboat. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 06/20/2016 07:54 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: > When asked about aircraft parts or test at an automotive parts store I > tell them it is for "my very high clearance off road vehicle".


    Message 7


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    Time: 09:53:14 AM PST US
    From: Eric Page <edpav8r@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Wrong email address - Re-send pls
    Franz, Your old email address has been flooding the AeroElectric List -- and every List user -- with an automatic reply message each day for the last week or so. Please visit http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List to change your email address. This will ensure that you receive List emails at your new address and will stop the auto-replies. Thank you, Eric do not archive > On Jun 20, 2016, at 3:40 AM, Franz Fux <franz@lastfrontierheli.com> wrote: > > > I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive > and uncontrollable spam. > > Please re-send your email to my new address: > > franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. > > Apologies for the inconvenience, > > Franz Fux > Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond > www.lastfrontierheli.com > --- > > Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA > > Tel: 250 558 7980 > Fax: 250 558 7981 > Reservations: 1-888-655-5566 >


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:57:20 PM PST US
    Subject: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    From: "erich weaver" <erich.weaver@aecom.com>
    Hello Bob Over on another popular forum, there was recently a discussion on whether it was preferable to have an electrical system with two batteries or with two alternators. Having previously read the Aeroelectric Connection and followed your forum here, my 2 cents worth would advocate for two alternators, as this provides unlimited duration backup; however, many disagreed. In particular, the owner of EFII (www.flyefii.com) said the following: "Electrical system complexity follows a progression: 1. One batt, one alternator 2. Two batts, one alternator 3. Two batts, two alternators One batt, two alternators is a problem. If you lose the batt, all you have left is half wave rectified AC power off the alternator - this means unhappy electronics. There needs to be a functioning battery in the system to absorb the pulses from the alternator." I feel pretty confident that if my battery successfully starts my engine that I am unlikely to "lose the battery" during a flight, and I also have some doubts about the need for a battery to absorb pulses from the alternator. Don't want to start any war of the experts here, but I would welcome your comment, and may repost your reply to the other forum as a followup, as many do respect your opinion. Best regards, Erich Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457320#457320


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:34:28 PM PST US
    From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    Are you referring to the Vans forums? > On Jun 20, 2016, at 17:55, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: > > > Hello Bob > > Over on another popular forum, there was recently a discussion on whether it was preferable to have an electrical system with two batteries or with two alternators. Having previously read the Aeroelectric Connection and followed your forum here, my 2 cents worth would advocate for two alternators, as this provides unlimited duration backup; however, many disagreed. In particular, the owner of EFII (www.flyefii.com) said the following: > > "Electrical system complexity follows a progression: > 1. One batt, one alternator > 2. Two batts, one alternator > 3. Two batts, two alternators > > One batt, two alternators is a problem. If you lose the batt, all you have left is half wave rectified AC power off the alternator - this means unhappy electronics. There needs to be a functioning battery in the system to absorb the pulses from the alternator." > > I feel pretty confident that if my battery successfully starts my engine that I am unlikely to "lose the battery" during a flight, and I also have some doubts about the need for a battery to absorb pulses from the alternator. > > Don't want to start any war of the experts here, but I would welcome your comment, and may repost your reply to the other forum as a followup, as many do respect your opinion. > > Best regards, > > Erich > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457320#457320 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 03:37:35 PM PST US
    From: "David Lloyd" <skywagon@charter.net>
    Subject: Re: Parts
    I like the ". . . very high clearance,. . . . " description. . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: BobbyPaulk@comcast.net To: aeroelectric-list Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 5:54 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Parts When asked about aircraft parts or test at an automotive parts store I tell them it is for "my very high clearance off road vehicle".


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:49:00 PM PST US
    From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    Erich, I have a single battery dual alternator system wired like Bobs Z 13-8. I fly in Remote Alaska and have the Dual ECU EFII system. Twice now I have run into alternator trouble on a remote gravel bar 2 hours from civilization. Once was a bad primary alternator and the next time was a pulley that came off the primary alternator. In both cases, I didn't have use of the primary alternator. Had I not had a secondary alternator. On the vacuum pad, I would not have been able to depart because I wouldn't have safely had the battery longevity to fly to civilization. I would have had to have someone fly parts out. Since I had a secondary alternator, I switched off the primary, switched on the secondary, and flew home safely. I have no regrets and I am happy that I went with this architecture and Bob has been more than helpful and displays masterful knowledge. Hope this helps. Justin. > On Jun 20, 2016, at 17:55, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: > > > Hello Bob > > Over on another popular forum, there was recently a discussion on whether it was preferable to have an electrical system with two batteries or with two alternators. Having previously read the Aeroelectric Connection and followed your forum here, my 2 cents worth would advocate for two alternators, as this provides unlimited duration backup; however, many disagreed. In particular, the owner of EFII (www.flyefii.com) said the following: > > "Electrical system complexity follows a progression: > 1. One batt, one alternator > 2. Two batts, one alternator > 3. Two batts, two alternators > > One batt, two alternators is a problem. If you lose the batt, all you have left is half wave rectified AC power off the alternator - this means unhappy electronics. There needs to be a functioning battery in the system to absorb the pulses from the alternator." > > I feel pretty confident that if my battery successfully starts my engine that I am unlikely to "lose the battery" during a flight, and I also have some doubts about the need for a battery to absorb pulses from the alternator. > > Don't want to start any war of the experts here, but I would welcome your comment, and may repost your reply to the other forum as a followup, as many do respect your opinion. > > Best regards, > > Erich > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457320#457320 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 04:07:25 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    From: "erich weaver" <erich.weaver@aecom.com>
    All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit surprised by the response from EFII. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325


    Message 13


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    Time: 04:45:46 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    From: C&K <yellowduckduo@gmail.com>
    Surprised indeed. I've never seen an alternator that normally put out "half wave rectified power" and I have seen automotive EFI systems run fine with a disconnected battery. There have been cases of some alternators going offline when overloaded to the point where the voltage drops way off but that isn't going to happen with a PM alternator. I'd want to suss out that scenario though with the alternator of choice if there are any heavy loads in the aircraft. I just used two tiny Dekka batteries that together weigh the same as the popular odysey battery and called it done. One has been in use for 10 years and the other 9 years now which for me makes the economics darn good compared to maintaining a single larger battery. Ken On 20/06/2016 7:06 PM, erich weaver wrote: > > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit surprised by the response from EFII. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 04:53:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    Can not argue with the order of complexity. As for which architecture is best, it is a matter of personal preference. A battery failing in flight is unlikely. Even if it did, how would you know it? What are the symptoms? If the pilot correctly identifies a battery failure, what is the correct action to take and why? I question the statement, "all you have left is half wave rectified AC power off the alternator". Most alternators put out rectified 3-phase full-wave current, not half wave DC. I agree with your statement, "I also have some doubts about the need for a battery to absorb pulses from the alternator." Our electrical guru has stated that avionics should be designed to handle anything an aircraft electrical system can throw at it. The ideal electrical system will keep critical equipment functioning even if a failure occurs and without requiring any action by the pilot, except to make a note to do repairs after landing. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457329#457329


    Message 15


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    Time: 05:49:14 PM PST US
    From: Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com>
    Subject: Re: Problem with starting
    Progress.... I now have the motor on the test bench displaying its sometimes -run sometimes-short-circuit behaviour. And I have video of both. Given that I just had it overhauled, new brushes etc., I think I am going to cut my losses and get a replacement motor - same model, from Hartzel. On Jun 19, 2016, at 13:28, Stephen Richards <stephencliverichards@gmail.com> wrote: This still suggests to me that a intermittent ground is shorting out the arm ature or field is shorting out . Clive From: Alec Myers Sent: =8E19/=8E06/=8E2016 14:51 Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Problem with starting The strangest symptom is that twice the motor has cut out (and the bus volta ge was pulled down) mid-crank while the prop was already turning at a good s tarting speed. I think that suggests it's not a bad spot on the commutator, f or example. I can rule out mechanical seizure at the crank because when the motor cut, t he prop immediately bounced back off a compression stroke, and (I think) I c an rule out a starter jam because the engine has started and run since. I thought I was onto something with a possible fracture in the field winding but that won't explain things if the motor isn't shunt wound. > On Jun 19, 2016, at 09:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect ric.com> wrote: > > > I'm still not convinced you have a motor problem. The chattering relay po ints more to circuit / system and low voltage issues. > > neal Except that a contactor powered from the same battery that is being pulled down by what amounts to continuous stall current may well drop-out during closures only to re-close when the contacts break and stall-current goes away. 12v battery contactors drop at about 2v . . . and are not likely to be candidates for 'buzzing' but it's not impossible. A easy experiment would call for powering the starter contactor from a separate source . . . like another battery. It may well stop chattering. But the energies being circulated will be profound. I'm puzzled by the intermittent nature of the symptom. This implies a root cause that is transient or loose to rattle around. Having the starter motor come to rest on a bad pass in the armature windings could account for such behavior. It would sure be illuminating to put a data acquisition system on it to capture all the voltages/currents during the event. Bob . . .


    Message 16


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    Time: 05:51:35 PM PST US
    From: rayj <raymondj@frontiernet.net>
    Subject: OT: PCB coating removal
    Greetings, I'm working on a PCB that has a clear dip coating. Originally made in the 70s-80s. The coating will melt with a soldering iron, but I'm wondering if there is a better way to remove the coating. The component I'm working is a quartz crystal that is part of the tone generator on lineman's test handset. If any one is aware of a tutorial for identifying the value of the crystal, I'd sure appreciate a head's up. TIA -- Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)


    Message 17


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    Time: 06:20:07 PM PST US
    From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    Robert at EFII wants you to use his bus manager. It's an additional $600-800 and can't handle 2 alternators. Its economically advantageous for him to recommend a system that works with his bus manager. I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking Robert here. I'm not. He has incredible customer service and is a stand up guy! Justin > On Jun 20, 2016, at 18:06, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: > > > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit surprised by the response from EFII. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 06:34:58 PM PST US
    From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    If you want the EFII Bus Manager set up for two alternators, you can get it that way. It can indeed "handle two alternators." On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> wrote: > jmjones2000@mindspring.com> > > Robert at EFII wants you to use his bus manager. It's an additional > $600-800 and can't handle 2 alternators. Its economically advantageous for > him to recommend a system that works with his bus manager. > > I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking Robert here. I'm not. He has > incredible customer service and is a stand up guy! > > Justin > > > On Jun 20, 2016, at 18:06, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: > > > erich.weaver@aecom.com> > > > > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as > well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit > surprised by the response from EFII. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 06:54:06 PM PST US
    From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    Good to know. Thanks Ken. It doesn't show this on the manuals available onli ne > On Jun 20, 2016, at 20:33, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote: > > If you want the EFII Bus Manager set up for two alternators, you can get i t that way. It can indeed "handle two alternators." > >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com > wrote: ring.com> >> >> Robert at EFII wants you to use his bus manager. It's an additional $600- 800 and can't handle 2 alternators. Its economically advantageous for him to recommend a system that works with his bus manager. >> >> I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking Robert here. I'm not. He has incredible customer service and is a stand up guy! >> >> Justin >> >> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 18:06, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: >> > ecom.com> >> > >> > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as we ll on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit surpris ed by the response from EFII. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========== >


    Message 20


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    Time: 07:04:46 PM PST US
    From: Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    I've got one that has never been used (that I am not using) if anybody is looking for a good price :) When I bought mine it was an either/or on the two alternator set up, but Robert said the next run would have a jumper so that it could be used either way (one alternator or two). I don't know if that has happened yet or not. On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> wrote: > Good to know. Thanks Ken. It doesn't show this on the manuals available > online > > On Jun 20, 2016, at 20:33, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote: > > If you want the EFII Bus Manager set up for two alternators, you can get > it that way. It can indeed "handle two alternators." > > On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com> > wrote: > >> jmjones2000@mindspring.com> >> >> Robert at EFII wants you to use his bus manager. It's an additional >> $600-800 and can't handle 2 alternators. Its economically advantageous for >> him to recommend a system that works with his bus manager. >> >> I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking Robert here. I'm not. He has >> incredible customer service and is a stand up guy! >> >> Justin >> >> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 18:06, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrote: >> > >> erich.weaver@aecom.com> >> > >> > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as >> well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit >> surprised by the response from EFII. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> ========== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> >> >


    Message 21


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    Time: 07:26:18 PM PST US
    From: Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    Robert may take yours and modify it for you. He is an awesome guy and I'm be yond satisfied with the EFII products and his customer service! > On Jun 20, 2016, at 21:03, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote: > > I've got one that has never been used (that I am not using) if anybody is l ooking for a good price :) When I bought mine it was an either/or on the two alternator set up, but Robert said the next run would have a jumper so that it could be used either way (one alternator or two). I don't know if that h as happened yet or not. > > >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.com > wrote: >> Good to know. Thanks Ken. It doesn't show this on the manuals available o nline >> >>> On Jun 20, 2016, at 20:33, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> If you want the EFII Bus Manager set up for two alternators, you can get it that way. It can indeed "handle two alternators." >>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 5:18 PM, Justin Jones <jmjones2000@mindspring.c om> wrote: spring.com> >>>> >>>> Robert at EFII wants you to use his bus manager. It's an additional $60 0-800 and can't handle 2 alternators. Its economically advantageous for him t o recommend a system that works with his bus manager. >>>> >>>> I don't want to sound like I'm trash talking Robert here. I'm not. He h as incredible customer service and is a stand up guy! >>>> >>>> Justin >>>> >>>> > On Jun 20, 2016, at 18:06, erich weaver <erich.weaver@aecom.com> wrot e: >>>> > @aecom.com> >>>> > >>>> > All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as w ell on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a bit surpri sed by the response from EFII. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Read this topic online here: >>>> > >>>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457325#457325 >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ========== >>>> - >>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >>>> ========== >>>> FORUMS - >>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> WIKI - >>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>>> ========== >>>> b Site - >>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut ion >>>> ========== >


    Message 22


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    Time: 09:59:37 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    At 06:06 PM 6/20/2016, you wrote: ><erich.weaver@aecom.com> > >All makes sense to me Justin; I followed the Z-13/8 architecture as >well on my RV-7A. Yes, original post was on the VAF forum. Just a >bit surprised by the response from EFII. . . . which was? Bob . . .


    Message 23


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    Time: 10:16:56 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    At 04:55 PM 6/20/2016, you wrote: ><erich.weaver@aecom.com> > >Hello Bob > >Over on another popular forum, there was recently a discussion on >whether it was preferable to have an electrical system with two >batteries or with two alternators. Having previously read the >Aeroelectric Connection and followed your forum here, my 2 cents >worth would advocate for two alternators, as this provides unlimited >duration backup; however, many disagreed. In particular, the owner >of EFII (www.flyefii.com) said the following: > >"Electrical system complexity follows a progression: > 1. One batt, one alternator > 2. Two batts, one alternator > 3. Two batts, two alternators > >One batt, two alternators is a problem. If you lose the batt, all >you have left is half wave rectified AC power off the alternator - >this means unhappy electronics. There needs to be a functioning >battery in the system to absorb the pulses from the alternator." > >I feel pretty confident that if my battery successfully starts my >engine that I am unlikely to "lose the battery" during a flight, and >I also have some doubts about the need for a battery to absorb >pulses from the alternator. Okay, this is easy . . . A battery SHOULD be the most reliable source of energy in your airplane. Simple, no moving parts, easy to quantify for performance. Any time I've had a customer cite a battery 'failure', I've had to ask, "What was the last cap check you did . . . and how long ago?" Like tires, oil and even propellers . . . the battery is a commodity. It is subject to stresses of environment and circumstance. Yet unlike tires and props that get pre-flight check and oil that gets changed out every so many hours . . . batteries tend to be treated in airplanes like they do in our cars. Run 'em until they don't crank the engine any more. A battery that fails to get your engine started has been essentially USELESS as back-up energy source for a long time. Z-13/8 was crafted with the notion that the SD-8 alternator was NOT installed to back up DUAL failures of main alternator AND a battery . . . but simply to run 8A or LESS of endurance loads after a single failure of the main alternator. The idea was to hold all the battery's contained energies in RESERVE for descent and approach to landing. If one is crafting a plan-B, plan-C or any other plan assuming that alternators are there to back up a failed battery simply does not appreciate the need for KNOWING that your prop leading edges, alternator drive belt, tires, oil levels AND BATTERY are ready to deliver to mission requirements. A battery that fails cap check for minimum battery only endurance probably cranks the engine just fine. Getting the engine started is NOT a substitute for battery cap check. Z-13/8, when operated within its design goals, gives you as much mission reliability as any other architecture. The biggest advantage of Z-13/8 is savings in WEIGHT. A 3 pound alternator gives you unlimited endurance at e-bus loads of 10A or less thus holding the battery completely in reserve . . . which should allow you to arrive at the airport of intended destination with lights a-blazing and all the screens lit up in vivid colors. It's all about energy management and preventative maintenance. Bob . . .


    Message 24


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    Time: 10:18:45 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    At 06:44 PM 6/20/2016, you wrote: > >Surprised indeed. >I've never seen an alternator that normally put out "half wave >rectified power" and I have seen automotive EFI systems run fine >with a disconnected battery. The SD-8 is a single phase output with considerable 'trash' on the output . . . >There have been cases of some alternators going offline when >overloaded to the point where the voltage drops way off but that >isn't going to happen with a PM alternator. I'd want to suss out >that scenario though with the alternator of choice if there are any >heavy loads in the aircraft. I just used two tiny Dekka batteries >that together weigh the same as the popular odysey battery and >called it done. One has been in use for 10 years and the other 9 >years now which for me makes the economics darn good compared to >maintaining a single larger battery. What did your batteries do at the last cap check? Bob . . .


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:27:08 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    At 06:52 PM 6/20/2016, you wrote: > >Can not argue with the order of complexity. As for which >architecture is best, it is a matter of personal preference. How is parts count x weight x cost of ownership to achieve the highest practical system reliability a matter of 'personal preferences'? > A battery failing in flight is unlikely. Even if it did, how > would you know it? What are the symptoms? If the pilot correctly > identifies a battery failure, what is the correct action to take > and why? I question the statement, "all you have left is half wave > rectified AC power off the alternator". Most alternators put out > rectified 3-phase full-wave current, not half wave DC. I agree > with your statement, "I also have some doubts about the need for a > battery to absorb pulses from the alternator." Our electrical guru > has stated that avionics should be designed to handle anything an > aircraft electrical system can throw at it. > The ideal electrical system will keep critical equipment > functioning even if a failure occurs and without requiring any > action by the pilot, except to make a note to do repairs after landing. Exactly. Check out the DAS plots for SD-8 output under various combinations of load, battery and presence of a 'filter' capacitor at: http://www.aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Curves/Alternator_Performance/SD-8_Noise-Plots/SD-8_Noise_Data.pdf In particular, page 8 where an SD-8 is operated with a 47Kuf capacitor, NO battery, and 8.8A load while supporting a 14.5v bus. Note that ripple was 129 mv pk-pk and 38mv RMS. My question of any detractors of SD-8 operations would be, what is it about the quality of this output that is deleterious to your product? Bob . . .


    Message 26


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    Time: 10:35:51 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Dual batteries or dual alternators?
    At 09:25 PM 6/20/2016, you wrote: >Robert may take yours and modify it for you. He is an awesome guy >and I'm beyond satisfied with the EFII products and his customer service! I would be interested to know how system reliability is improved by any process that goes beyond running all engine dependent components directly from a battery bus . . . as a general rule, system reliability DOES NOT improve with increased in parts count or operational complexity. All too often, system integrators get wrapped around the "keep it powered up at all costs" axle while loosing sight of vulnerabilities of the electrically dependent device or system. The LA-IFP accident http://www.aeroelectric.com/Reference_Docs/Accidents/N811HB_Feb2008_LA-IVp/ is one such example. The guy was so worried about keeping BOTH ignition systems powered up that he lost sight of both single points of failure and loss of integrity due to poor architecture. Bob . . .




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