Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Franz Fux)
2. 12:54 AM - Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply (Rob Turk)
3. 06:08 AM - Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:24 AM - do I need to change my capacitor (AirEupora)
5. 08:55 AM - Re: do I need to change my capacitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:11 AM - battery question (Ken Ryan)
7. 11:46 AM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 12:08 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
9. 01:38 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 01:51 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
11. 02:10 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
12. 02:21 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 02:37 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
14. 05:00 PM - Re: battery question (user9253)
15. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
16. 05:33 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
17. 06:11 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan)
18. 07:41 PM - Re: battery question (Justin Jones)
Message 1
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Subject: | Wrong email address - Re-send pls |
I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive
and uncontrollable spam.
Please re-send your email to my new address:
franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future.
Apologies for the inconvenience,
Franz Fux
Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond
www.lastfrontierheli.com
---
Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA
Tel: 250 558 7980
Fax: 250 558 7981
Reservations: 1-888-655-5566
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply |
This guy seems to have set up an auto-reply. The options to make this
stop are to have the moderator manually remove him from the list, or to
send a 500-page fax to the number listed below, requesting him to remove
his auto-reply.
On 6/21/2016 9:30 AM, Franz Fux wrote:
>
> I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive
> and uncontrollable spam.
>
> Please re-send your email to my new address:
>
> franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future.
>
> Apologies for the inconvenience,
>
> Franz Fux
> Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond
> www.lastfrontierheli.com
> ---
>
> Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA
>
> Tel: 250 558 7980
> Fax: 250 558 7981
> Reservations: 1-888-655-5566
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply |
At 02:53 AM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
>This guy seems to have set up an auto-reply. The options to make
>this stop are to have the moderator manually remove him from the
>list, or to send a 500-page fax to the number listed below,
>requesting him to remove his auto-reply.
I've asked Matt to remove his old address from
the list server's recognized addresses
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | do I need to change my capacitor |
When I built my plane I got a copy of Bob N Electrical manual and started following
his advice on the way I should build my system. One of the first things
I did was install the capacitor on the Jabiru electrical charging system. That
was four years ago and hundred hours. I have had a couple of things happen
to charging system. Burnt Molex plug, replace with block and terminals. This
last incident was the voltage regulator went out, but it took couple of systems
with it. I was flying with the Trio/MGL auto-pilot on and the circuit breaker
popped. I waited a minute then pushed it back in and it popped again. I
left it out for the rest of the flight. I observed that my voltage had dropped
to 12.8, but it did not enter into my mind that I had loss voltage. Over
the next couple of flights I started having starting problems after a flight.
I finally figured out that my voltage regulator was bad. I replace it. Then
started finding burnt resistors on the auto-pilot wiring, a burnt diode on the
battery charging wire. It was still working correctly. Then Matt, at MGL
found my mother board damaged.
Today I read on the Europa List that I should check or replace my capacitor. Apparently
there is only one check I can do. I'm wondering if I should just replace
it for peace of mind as I'm planning on heading to KOSH in July.
Rick Stockton
N120EJ
3300L
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457354#457354
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: do I need to change my capacitor |
Subject: AeroElectric-List: do I need to change my capacitor
From: "AirEupora" <AirEupora@sbcglobal.net>
When I built my plane I got a copy of Bob N Electrical manual and
started following his advice on the way I should build my
system. One of the first things I did was install the capacitor on
the Jabiru electrical charging system. That was four years ago and
hundred hours. I have had a couple of things happen to charging system.
Burnt Molex plug, replace with block and terminals.
These connectors would not have been my
first choice for power wiring . . . I remember
seeing the open-barrel, b-crimp pins from
AMP, Inc back about 1968 when they were being
incorporated into Cessna's production harnesses.
They looked pretty cheesy to me . . . but
they have stood the test of time.
Having said that, they ARE very process and
environment sensitive. They must be properly
crimped and they have to be kept dry. It would
have been interesting to inspect the carcass
to see if we could deduce root cause. In any
case, the 'upgrade' to terminal block was
a safe bet.
This last incident was the voltage regulator went out, but it took
couple of systems with it. I was flying with the Trio/MGL auto-pilot
on and the circuit breaker popped. I waited a minute then pushed it
back in and it popped again. I left it out for the rest of the
flight. I observed that my voltage had dropped to 12.8, but it did
not enter into my mind that I had loss voltage.
If you had a low volts warning system, it would
have been flashing for anything below 13.5 volts.
The battery cannot be charged with voltages that
low. 14.2 to 14.6 is the target.
Over the next couple of flights I started having starting problems
after a flight. I finally figured out that my voltage regulator was
bad. I replace it. Then started finding burnt resistors on the
auto-pilot wiring, a burnt diode on the battery charging wire. It
was still working correctly. Then Matt, at MGL found my mother board damaged.
Where is this diode in the system? Did you pattern
your system to a Z-figure?
Today I read on the Europa List that I should check or replace my
capacitor. Apparently there is only one check I can do. I'm
wondering if I should just replace it for peace of mind as I'm
planning on heading to KOSH in July.
The capacitor is not a critical operational
device. Unless you've suffered an extended
over-voltage condition, the capacitor is
probably fine. Do you have ov protection?
What are your bus voltage readings with the
new regulator? Can you share a copy of your
architecture drawings with us?
Did your autopilot repair guy offer a probable
cause for what was discovered in the damage
patterns?
It's not clear to me that 'smoked' components
are necessarily linked to regulator failure
unless there was a sustained over-voltage
condition prior to the failure that caused it
to go belly-up. The constellation of failures
you've cited may well be separate incidents
with their own root causes.
Bob . . .
Message 6
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Subject: | battery question |
I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to run. My
electrical system architecture will have the primary pump running directly
off the integrated generator. The primary pump will be the ONLY load on the
generator. The backup pump will run off the battery bus, connected to the
external alternator. My question is, does it make any sense to include a
battery in the generator/primary pump system?
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
At 12:09 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to
>run. My electrical system architecture will have the primary pump
>running directly off the integrated generator. The primary pump will
>be the ONLY load on the generator. The backup pump will run off the
>battery bus, connected to the external alternator. My question is,
>does it make any sense to include a battery in the generator/primary
>pump system?
What does your system architecture look like?
Are you duplicating a system already flying
or is this something original?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the
integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor
specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the
battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a
battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel
pump circuit.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 12:09 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
> I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to run.
> My electrical system architecture will have the primary pump running
> directly off the integrated generator. The primary pump will be the ONLY
> load on the generator. The backup pump will run off the battery bus,
> connected to the external alternator. My question is, does it make any
> sense to include a battery in the generator/primary pump system?
>
>
> What does your system architecture look like?
> Are you duplicating a system already flying
> or is this something original?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said,
>the integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a
>22K capacitor specified. The external alternator powers the main bus
>and charges the battery. There has been some recent discussion
>suggesting a need for a battery in the system, but I was not
>planning one on the generator-fuel pump circuit.
Giving well considered advice based on the information
you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with
risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'.
With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8
in the 'Connection.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf
Use your external alternator as the MAIN and
the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire
the main pump to the battery bus, the standby
pump to the main bus.
This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of
builders over the past 20+ years and offers
very high system reliability with no weight
penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer.
Rotax builds pretty good engines but their
expertise in aircraft electrical systems is
not well demonstrated.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
Thanks Bob. I'll look at it.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
> It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the
> integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor
> specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the
> battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a
> battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel
> pump circuit.
>
>
> Giving well considered advice based on the information
> you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with
> risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'.
>
> With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8
> in the 'Connection.
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf
>
> Use your external alternator as the MAIN and
> the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire
> the main pump to the battery bus, the standby
> pump to the main bus.
>
> This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of
> builders over the past 20+ years and offers
> very high system reliability with no weight
> penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer.
>
> Rotax builds pretty good engines but their
> expertise in aircraft electrical systems is
> not well demonstrated.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the endurance bus
I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch that energizes it?
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Bob. I'll look at it.
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>>
>> It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the
>> integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor
>> specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the
>> battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a
>> battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel
>> pump circuit.
>>
>>
>> Giving well considered advice based on the information
>> you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with
>> risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'.
>>
>> With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8
>> in the 'Connection.
>>
>> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf
>>
>> Use your external alternator as the MAIN and
>> the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire
>> the main pump to the battery bus, the standby
>> pump to the main bus.
>>
>> This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of
>> builders over the past 20+ years and offers
>> very high system reliability with no weight
>> penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer.
>>
>> Rotax builds pretty good engines but their
>> expertise in aircraft electrical systems is
>> not well demonstrated.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
At 04:08 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the
>endurance bus I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch
>that energizes it?
The endurance bus would be loaded with
only those goodies you would operate from
the stand-by alternator . . . generally
limited to 15-18 amps which is the
internal alternator's rated output.
Everything else goes on the Main bus.
During loss of main alternator, you continue
flight to airport of intended destination
with the battery contactor OFF, E-bus
alternate feed switch ON, S/B alternator
switch ON.
When airport is in sight, you now have all
the battery's reserves available to close
the battery contactor and operate all the
goodies for descent and approach to landing.
The e-bus is an integral component of the
energy management philosophy on which Z-13/8
is based. The big advantage for you is that
unlike an SD-8 s/b alternator mounted to the
back of a Lycoming, YOUR s/b alternator is about
twice that size. You have much larger e-bus
options for the endurance mode of flight.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own
switch. Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Jun 21, 2016 13:27, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:08 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
> Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the endurance
> bus I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch that energizes it?
>
>
> The endurance bus would be loaded with
> only those goodies you would operate from
> the stand-by alternator . . . generally
> limited to 15-18 amps which is the
> internal alternator's rated output.
>
> Everything else goes on the Main bus.
> During loss of main alternator, you continue
> flight to airport of intended destination
> with the battery contactor OFF, E-bus
> alternate feed switch ON, S/B alternator
> switch ON.
>
> When airport is in sight, you now have all
> the battery's reserves available to close
> the battery contactor and operate all the
> goodies for descent and approach to landing.
>
> The e-bus is an integral component of the
> energy management philosophy on which Z-13/8
> is based. The big advantage for you is that
> unlike an SD-8 s/b alternator mounted to the
> back of a Lycoming, YOUR s/b alternator is about
> twice that size. You have much larger e-bus
> options for the endurance mode of flight.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
What advantage does an additional battery offer?
email me at fransew at gmail
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457369#457369
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
I'm not saying that a battery offers any advantages. I'm asking whether or
not it is necessary to have a battery in the system. Another poster on this
forum breached the idea (just a few days ago) that a battery might be
necessary to "smooth" the output. I "think" that idea was debunked, but I'm
never quite sure how to interpret some of the responses. In any event, that
discussion was about a "failed" battery. I have not seen the idea of
battery elimination discussed. I've been reviewing Z-13/8 and it seems to
have some advantages but also seems to add unnecessary complications.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What advantage does an additional battery offer?
> email me at fransew at gmail
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457369#457369
>
>
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>I already have the ability to turn each
>component on or off with its own
>switch.=C2 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous.
The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's
a plan-b configuration tool for gathering
a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE
bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b
authorship on the ground. When the LV warning
light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle
on to airport of intended destination.
It's also a dual-source bus that functions
in the rare event of loss of battery contactor.
It is powered up from the main bus through
the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . .
e-bus is up.
Have you done a load analysis to know
what energy is needed to get into an
optimized endurance mode?
Bob . . .
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
I don't think it's a big deal to flip a couple of switches if the LV light
comes on. I have done a load analysis, but I don't completely understand
what you mean by "optimized endurance mode."
The only thing necessary to keep the airplane in the air is one fuel pump,
approximately 5 amps. This is a VFR only airplane, so nothing else is
really necessary to get home safely.
The EFIS is Dynon with their proprietary backup battery.
If everything is turned on and working, the draw is about 25 amps (peak).
With the system I already planned, the primary fuel pump is driven by the
generator in an autonomous system. There isn't even a fuel pump switch in
this system. The system consists of generator, regulator, capacitor, fuel
pump, inline fuse, momentary contact switch to energize the generator, and
the wiring to connect things together.
The auxiliary fuel pump is switched off a battery bus (not really a bus,
just a wire from the hot side of the battery relay) with an inline fuse.
Everything else runs off the main bus, which is connected to the external
alternator and battery.
If the generator (or regulator) fails, the main fuel pump stops but there
is still the battery and the alternator to power the auxiliary fuel pump
and keep the engine running.
If the alternator fails, the engine keeps running because the main fuel
pump is not affected. The main bus becomes powered by the battery.
Depending upon the situation load shedding might be desirable to preserve
enough battery power to run the aux fuel pump for landing (normal takeoff
and landings use both pumps).
It seems the worst case scenario is the generator failure, as that takes
out the main fuel pump and should the auxiliary pump fail, the airplane
comes down.
I don't really know what happens if the EarthX ETX36C lithium battery
fails. Hopefully the airplane does not burn up in flight.
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
> I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own
> switch.=C3=82 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superflu
ous.
>
>
> The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's
> a plan-b configuration tool for gathering
> a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE
> bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b
> authorship on the ground. When the LV warning
> light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle
> on to airport of intended destination.
>
> It's also a dual-source bus that functions
> in the rare event of loss of battery contactor.
>
> It is powered up from the main bus through
> the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . .
> e-bus is up.
>
> Have you done a load analysis to know
> what energy is needed to get into an
> optimized endurance mode?
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: battery question |
Maybe a little off topic, but if anyone is worried about the single battery i
dea, I installed the EarthX set of jumper wires connecting directly to the b
attery (pos and neg). They come to the instrument panel and terminate in a s
ocket. It's the install kit that EarthX sells with their Lithium jump pack. W
hole kit is less than 1lb. It will work to jumpstart the plane (ask how I kn
ow) and it will extend battery life if you loose all alternators on your sys
tem.
The jump pack can't be recharged by plugging it in during flight. Only by pl
ugging it in to the charger that comes with it. It also charges any usb devi
ce.
Justin
> On Jun 21, 2016, at 18:32, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelect
ric.com> wrote:
>
> At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote:
>
>> I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own s
witch.=C3=82 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous.
>
> The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's
> a plan-b configuration tool for gathering
> a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE
> bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b
> authorship on the ground. When the LV warning
> light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle
> on to airport of intended destination.
>
> It's also a dual-source bus that functions
> in the rare event of loss of battery contactor.
>
> It is powered up from the main bus through
> the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . .
> e-bus is up.
>
> Have you done a load analysis to know
> what energy is needed to get into an
> optimized endurance mode?
>
> Bob . . .
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