---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/21/16: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:31 AM - Wrong email address - Re-send pls (Franz Fux) 2. 12:54 AM - Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply (Rob Turk) 3. 06:08 AM - Re: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:24 AM - do I need to change my capacitor (AirEupora) 5. 08:55 AM - Re: do I need to change my capacitor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 10:11 AM - battery question (Ken Ryan) 7. 11:46 AM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 12:08 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 9. 01:38 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 01:51 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 11. 02:10 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 12. 02:21 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 13. 02:37 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 14. 05:00 PM - Re: battery question (user9253) 15. 05:31 PM - Re: Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 16. 05:33 PM - Re: battery question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 17. 06:11 PM - Re: battery question (Ken Ryan) 18. 07:41 PM - Re: battery question (Justin Jones) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:13 AM PST US From: "Franz Fux" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Wrong email address - Re-send pls I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive and uncontrollable spam. Please re-send your email to my new address: franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. Apologies for the inconvenience, Franz Fux Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond www.lastfrontierheli.com --- Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA Tel: 250 558 7980 Fax: 250 558 7981 Reservations: 1-888-655-5566 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply From: Rob Turk This guy seems to have set up an auto-reply. The options to make this stop are to have the moderator manually remove him from the list, or to send a 500-page fax to the number listed below, requesting him to remove his auto-reply. On 6/21/2016 9:30 AM, Franz Fux wrote: > > I will no longer be checking franz@lastfrontierheli.com due to excessive > and uncontrollable spam. > > Please re-send your email to my new address: > > franz.fux@lastfrontierheli.com and make a note of it for the future. > > Apologies for the inconvenience, > > Franz Fux > Last Frontier Heliskiing - Go Beyond > www.lastfrontierheli.com > --- > > Head Office: PO Box 1237, Vernon, BC V1T 6N6, CANADA > > Tel: 250 558 7980 > Fax: 250 558 7981 > Reservations: 1-888-655-5566 > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:08:57 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Wrong email address - friggin autoreply At 02:53 AM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > >This guy seems to have set up an auto-reply. The options to make >this stop are to have the moderator manually remove him from the >list, or to send a 500-page fax to the number listed below, >requesting him to remove his auto-reply. I've asked Matt to remove his old address from the list server's recognized addresses Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:26 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: do I need to change my capacitor From: "AirEupora" When I built my plane I got a copy of Bob N Electrical manual and started following his advice on the way I should build my system. One of the first things I did was install the capacitor on the Jabiru electrical charging system. That was four years ago and hundred hours. I have had a couple of things happen to charging system. Burnt Molex plug, replace with block and terminals. This last incident was the voltage regulator went out, but it took couple of systems with it. I was flying with the Trio/MGL auto-pilot on and the circuit breaker popped. I waited a minute then pushed it back in and it popped again. I left it out for the rest of the flight. I observed that my voltage had dropped to 12.8, but it did not enter into my mind that I had loss voltage. Over the next couple of flights I started having starting problems after a flight. I finally figured out that my voltage regulator was bad. I replace it. Then started finding burnt resistors on the auto-pilot wiring, a burnt diode on the battery charging wire. It was still working correctly. Then Matt, at MGL found my mother board damaged. Today I read on the Europa List that I should check or replace my capacitor. Apparently there is only one check I can do. I'm wondering if I should just replace it for peace of mind as I'm planning on heading to KOSH in July. Rick Stockton N120EJ 3300L Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457354#457354 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: do I need to change my capacitor Subject: AeroElectric-List: do I need to change my capacitor From: "AirEupora" When I built my plane I got a copy of Bob N Electrical manual and started following his advice on the way I should build my system. One of the first things I did was install the capacitor on the Jabiru electrical charging system. That was four years ago and hundred hours. I have had a couple of things happen to charging system. Burnt Molex plug, replace with block and terminals. These connectors would not have been my first choice for power wiring . . . I remember seeing the open-barrel, b-crimp pins from AMP, Inc back about 1968 when they were being incorporated into Cessna's production harnesses. They looked pretty cheesy to me . . . but they have stood the test of time. Having said that, they ARE very process and environment sensitive. They must be properly crimped and they have to be kept dry. It would have been interesting to inspect the carcass to see if we could deduce root cause. In any case, the 'upgrade' to terminal block was a safe bet. This last incident was the voltage regulator went out, but it took couple of systems with it. I was flying with the Trio/MGL auto-pilot on and the circuit breaker popped. I waited a minute then pushed it back in and it popped again. I left it out for the rest of the flight. I observed that my voltage had dropped to 12.8, but it did not enter into my mind that I had loss voltage. If you had a low volts warning system, it would have been flashing for anything below 13.5 volts. The battery cannot be charged with voltages that low. 14.2 to 14.6 is the target. Over the next couple of flights I started having starting problems after a flight. I finally figured out that my voltage regulator was bad. I replace it. Then started finding burnt resistors on the auto-pilot wiring, a burnt diode on the battery charging wire. It was still working correctly. Then Matt, at MGL found my mother board damaged. Where is this diode in the system? Did you pattern your system to a Z-figure? Today I read on the Europa List that I should check or replace my capacitor. Apparently there is only one check I can do. I'm wondering if I should just replace it for peace of mind as I'm planning on heading to KOSH in July. The capacitor is not a critical operational device. Unless you've suffered an extended over-voltage condition, the capacitor is probably fine. Do you have ov protection? What are your bus voltage readings with the new regulator? Can you share a copy of your architecture drawings with us? Did your autopilot repair guy offer a probable cause for what was discovered in the damage patterns? It's not clear to me that 'smoked' components are necessarily linked to regulator failure unless there was a sustained over-voltage condition prior to the failure that caused it to go belly-up. The constellation of failures you've cited may well be separate incidents with their own root causes. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:11:31 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: AeroElectric-List: battery question I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to run. My electrical system architecture will have the primary pump running directly off the integrated generator. The primary pump will be the ONLY load on the generator. The backup pump will run off the battery bus, connected to the external alternator. My question is, does it make any sense to include a battery in the generator/primary pump system? ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:39 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question At 12:09 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to >run. My electrical system architecture will have the primary pump >running directly off the integrated generator. The primary pump will >be the ONLY load on the generator. The backup pump will run off the >battery bus, connected to the external alternator. My question is, >does it make any sense to include a battery in the generator/primary >pump system? What does your system architecture look like? Are you duplicating a system already flying or is this something original? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:01 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel pump circuit. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:09 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > > I am installing a Rotax 914 which requires an electric fuel pump to run. > My electrical system architecture will have the primary pump running > directly off the integrated generator. The primary pump will be the ONLY > load on the generator. The backup pump will run off the battery bus, > connected to the external alternator. My question is, does it make any > sense to include a battery in the generator/primary pump system? > > > What does your system architecture look like? > Are you duplicating a system already flying > or is this something original? > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:37 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, >the integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a >22K capacitor specified. The external alternator powers the main bus >and charges the battery. There has been some recent discussion >suggesting a need for a battery in the system, but I was not >planning one on the generator-fuel pump circuit. Giving well considered advice based on the information you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'. With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8 in the 'Connection. http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf Use your external alternator as the MAIN and the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire the main pump to the battery bus, the standby pump to the main bus. This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of builders over the past 20+ years and offers very high system reliability with no weight penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer. Rotax builds pretty good engines but their expertise in aircraft electrical systems is not well demonstrated. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:31 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question Thanks Bob. I'll look at it. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > > It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the > integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor > specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the > battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a > battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel > pump circuit. > > > Giving well considered advice based on the information > you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with > risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'. > > With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8 > in the 'Connection. > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf > > Use your external alternator as the MAIN and > the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire > the main pump to the battery bus, the standby > pump to the main bus. > > This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of > builders over the past 20+ years and offers > very high system reliability with no weight > penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer. > > Rotax builds pretty good engines but their > expertise in aircraft electrical systems is > not well demonstrated. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:10:41 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the endurance bus I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch that energizes it? On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:48 PM, Ken Ryan wrote: > Thanks Bob. I'll look at it. > > On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > >> At 02:03 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >> >> It was suggested to me by the Rotax dealer in Canada. Like I said, the >> integrated generator only runs the main fuel pump. There is a 22K capacitor >> specified. The external alternator powers the main bus and charges the >> battery. There has been some recent discussion suggesting a need for a >> battery in the system, but I was not planning one on the generator-fuel >> pump circuit. >> >> >> Giving well considered advice based on the information >> you've supplied is difficult if not fraught with >> risk. We're viewing your system through a 'knothole'. >> >> With that much generation ability, consider Figures Z-13/8 >> in the 'Connection. >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Adobe_Architecture_Pdfs/Z13-8T.pdf >> >> Use your external alternator as the MAIN and >> the built in alternator as the STANDBY. Wire >> the main pump to the battery bus, the standby >> pump to the main bus. >> >> This architecture has been vetted by hundreds of >> builders over the past 20+ years and offers >> very high system reliability with no weight >> penalties over what the Rotax folks might offer. >> >> Rotax builds pretty good engines but their >> expertise in aircraft electrical systems is >> not well demonstrated. >> >> >> Bob . . . >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:21:08 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question At 04:08 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the >endurance bus I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch >that energizes it? The endurance bus would be loaded with only those goodies you would operate from the stand-by alternator . . . generally limited to 15-18 amps which is the internal alternator's rated output. Everything else goes on the Main bus. During loss of main alternator, you continue flight to airport of intended destination with the battery contactor OFF, E-bus alternate feed switch ON, S/B alternator switch ON. When airport is in sight, you now have all the battery's reserves available to close the battery contactor and operate all the goodies for descent and approach to landing. The e-bus is an integral component of the energy management philosophy on which Z-13/8 is based. The big advantage for you is that unlike an SD-8 s/b alternator mounted to the back of a Lycoming, YOUR s/b alternator is about twice that size. You have much larger e-bus options for the endurance mode of flight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:37:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question From: Ken Ryan I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own switch. Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous. Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve. On Jun 21, 2016 13:27, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:08 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > > Am I correct in thinking that if I wanted to do away with the endurance > bus I could eliminate the relay (1N4001) and the switch that energizes it? > > > The endurance bus would be loaded with > only those goodies you would operate from > the stand-by alternator . . . generally > limited to 15-18 amps which is the > internal alternator's rated output. > > Everything else goes on the Main bus. > During loss of main alternator, you continue > flight to airport of intended destination > with the battery contactor OFF, E-bus > alternate feed switch ON, S/B alternator > switch ON. > > When airport is in sight, you now have all > the battery's reserves available to close > the battery contactor and operate all the > goodies for descent and approach to landing. > > The e-bus is an integral component of the > energy management philosophy on which Z-13/8 > is based. The big advantage for you is that > unlike an SD-8 s/b alternator mounted to the > back of a Lycoming, YOUR s/b alternator is about > twice that size. You have much larger e-bus > options for the endurance mode of flight. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:46 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery question From: "user9253" What advantage does an additional battery offer? email me at fransew at gmail -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457369#457369 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:31 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: battery question I'm not saying that a battery offers any advantages. I'm asking whether or not it is necessary to have a battery in the system. Another poster on this forum breached the idea (just a few days ago) that a battery might be necessary to "smooth" the output. I "think" that idea was debunked, but I'm never quite sure how to interpret some of the responses. In any event, that discussion was about a "failed" battery. I have not seen the idea of battery elimination discussed. I've been reviewing Z-13/8 and it seems to have some advantages but also seems to add unnecessary complications. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, user9253 wrote: > > What advantage does an additional battery offer? > email me at fransew at gmail > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457369#457369 > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:05 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: >I already have the ability to turn each >component on or off with its own >switch.=C2 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous. The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's a plan-b configuration tool for gathering a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b authorship on the ground. When the LV warning light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle on to airport of intended destination. It's also a dual-source bus that functions in the rare event of loss of battery contactor. It is powered up from the main bus through the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . . e-bus is up. Have you done a load analysis to know what energy is needed to get into an optimized endurance mode? Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:37 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question I don't think it's a big deal to flip a couple of switches if the LV light comes on. I have done a load analysis, but I don't completely understand what you mean by "optimized endurance mode." The only thing necessary to keep the airplane in the air is one fuel pump, approximately 5 amps. This is a VFR only airplane, so nothing else is really necessary to get home safely. The EFIS is Dynon with their proprietary backup battery. If everything is turned on and working, the draw is about 25 amps (peak). With the system I already planned, the primary fuel pump is driven by the generator in an autonomous system. There isn't even a fuel pump switch in this system. The system consists of generator, regulator, capacitor, fuel pump, inline fuse, momentary contact switch to energize the generator, and the wiring to connect things together. The auxiliary fuel pump is switched off a battery bus (not really a bus, just a wire from the hot side of the battery relay) with an inline fuse. Everything else runs off the main bus, which is connected to the external alternator and battery. If the generator (or regulator) fails, the main fuel pump stops but there is still the battery and the alternator to power the auxiliary fuel pump and keep the engine running. If the alternator fails, the engine keeps running because the main fuel pump is not affected. The main bus becomes powered by the battery. Depending upon the situation load shedding might be desirable to preserve enough battery power to run the aux fuel pump for landing (normal takeoff and landings use both pumps). It seems the worst case scenario is the generator failure, as that takes out the main fuel pump and should the auxiliary pump fail, the airplane comes down. I don't really know what happens if the EarthX ETX36C lithium battery fails. Hopefully the airplane does not burn up in flight. On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > > I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own > switch.=C3=82 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superflu ous. > > > The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's > a plan-b configuration tool for gathering > a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE > bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b > authorship on the ground. When the LV warning > light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle > on to airport of intended destination. > > It's also a dual-source bus that functions > in the rare event of loss of battery contactor. > > It is powered up from the main bus through > the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . . > e-bus is up. > > Have you done a load analysis to know > what energy is needed to get into an > optimized endurance mode? > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:54 PM PST US From: Justin Jones Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: battery question Maybe a little off topic, but if anyone is worried about the single battery i dea, I installed the EarthX set of jumper wires connecting directly to the b attery (pos and neg). They come to the instrument panel and terminate in a s ocket. It's the install kit that EarthX sells with their Lithium jump pack. W hole kit is less than 1lb. It will work to jumpstart the plane (ask how I kn ow) and it will extend battery life if you loose all alternators on your sys tem. The jump pack can't be recharged by plugging it in during flight. Only by pl ugging it in to the charger that comes with it. It also charges any usb devi ce. Justin > On Jun 21, 2016, at 18:32, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > > At 04:34 PM 6/21/2016, you wrote: > >> I already have the ability to turn each component on or off with its own s witch.=C3=82 Separate ebus with its wiring and relay etc. seem superfluous. > > The e-bus is NOT an avionics bus . . . it's > a plan-b configuration tool for gathering > a REDUCED electrical load onto an ENDURANCE > bus. It's a way to do all of your plan-b > authorship on the ground. When the LV warning > light comes on, flip 3 switches and trundle > on to airport of intended destination. > > It's also a dual-source bus that functions > in the rare event of loss of battery contactor. > > It is powered up from the main bus through > the normal feed diode . . . main bus up . . . > e-bus is up. > > Have you done a load analysis to know > what energy is needed to get into an > optimized endurance mode? > > Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.