---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/03/16: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:48 AM - Re: Switch wiring (Carlos Trigo) 2. 05:13 AM - Re: Non-Working Radio Help Needed (user9253) 3. 05:40 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253) 4. 08:20 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan) 5. 09:22 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253) 6. 09:30 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253) 7. 12:18 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH) 8. 12:25 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan) 9. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan) 10. 12:51 PM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253) 11. 04:26 PM - Re: Re: Hypothetical Battery Contactor Failure (rayj) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:27 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Switch wiring From: Carlos Trigo Well, I had to ask exactly because the Carling documents don't have any info rmation about the contacts, not even a wiring schematic, as it is usual. Thanks Werner, Eric and Bob; Now I know that the middle contacts are very si mply the 2 lamp contacts. Nice! It is already wired... Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 02/07/2016, =C3-s 20:57, Robert L. Nuckolls, III escreveu: > At 10:34 AM 7/2/2016, you wrote: >> Guys >> >> The switch in the attached images is model LT-2561-601-012 from Carling >> Technologies, which is a DPDT switch with illuminated lever tip. >> I know that the 2 sets of contacts on each side are the DPDT contacts, so no >> doubt about their wiring. >> Now about the other 2 middle contacts, which are for the LED tip >> illumination, how are they wired? > > Here's the carling data sheet on that series > of switches. > > http://tinyurl.com/jda6zop > > Looking at an exerpt we see > > > > Your LT2561 is two pole, three position on-off-on > with .25" quick connects, satin chrome handle, > red display in all three positions and a 12 volt > incandescent lamp (so you don't have to worry about > polarity). > > > > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:13:49 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-Working Radio Help Needed From: "user9253" It sure sounds like an antenna problem. If the antenna has been confirmed good, maybe the problem is the interface between the antenna and radio. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457670#457670 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:40:15 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions From: "user9253" A 30 amp fuse is normally too high for protecting a #14 wire. There are two purposes for circuit protection, overload and short circuits. Since a PM dynamo is self current limiting, overload protection does not need to the provided. But short circuit protection does. The battery and the rest of the electrical system needs to be protected against the PM dynamo circuit shorting out. A 30 amp fuse will definitely blow when a 14 awg wire shorts out. The event will happen so quickly that the tefzel insulation will not get hot enough to be damaged. B and C provides a schematic that is wired as you suggested. In fact, there is no battery contactor at all. http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf Most aircraft are wired with the battery contactor and starter contactor in series. One advantage is being able to shut off the battery contactor if the starter contactor gets stuck closed. I understand Rotax's reasoning. There is more than one way to wire an airplane. Like other design considerations, compromises need to be made. The advantage of one feature causes a disadvantage someplace else. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457672#457672 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:18 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions Thanks Joe, especially for the explanation regarding overload and short circuit. I never clearly understood that before. Here's another question: With the Rotax the rotary keyed ignition switch is not allowed. Independent toggles for the ignitions are clearly specified. Given that, what would be the options for inserting a keyed switch to prevent unauthorized starting? The only thing I have come up with is to put it in series with the battery contactor (given that the starter cable is connected to the output side of that contactor). If I moved the starter cable to the battery side of the contactor, where might I use a keyed switch? Ken On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 4:38 AM, user9253 wrote: > > A 30 amp fuse is normally too high for protecting a #14 wire. There are > two purposes for circuit protection, overload and short circuits. Since a > PM dynamo is self current limiting, overload protection does not need to > the provided. But short circuit protection does. The battery and the rest > of the electrical system needs to be protected against the PM dynamo > circuit shorting out. A 30 amp fuse will definitely blow when a 14 awg > wire shorts out. The event will happen so quickly that the tefzel > insulation will not get hot enough to be damaged. > B and C provides a schematic that is wired as you suggested. In fact, > there is no battery contactor at all. > http://www.bandc.aero/pdfs/420-506_REVB.pdf > Most aircraft are wired with the battery contactor and starter contactor > in series. One advantage is being able to shut off the battery contactor > if the starter contactor gets stuck closed. I understand Rotax's > reasoning. There is more than one way to wire an airplane. Like other > design considerations, compromises need to be made. The advantage of one > feature causes a disadvantage someplace else. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457672#457672 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:08 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions From: "user9253" Ken, assuming that you are installing a starter contactor, how about wiring it as shown in Z13/8? Battery, Battery Contactor, Starter Contactor, Starter Replace the push button switch in Z13/8 with a momentary key switch like Mouser part number 611-Y208122A203NQ Ignore the Mouser Switch Function description. The C&K data sheet shows that the DPDT that can be wired to function as desired. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457674#457674 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:42 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions From: "user9253" If your starter contactor does not have an internal diode, install an exterior one with the arrow pointing towards positive. The banded end of a diode is the end of the diode that the arrow points towards. A diode will protect the start switch from arcing. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457676#457676 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:18:30 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions From: GTH /Le 03/07/2016 17:17, Ken Ryan a crit : / > / > / > /With the Rotax the rotary keyed ignition switch is not allowed. > Independent toggles for the ignitions are clearly specified. > / Hi Ken and all, Didn't know about that. Maybe it concerns the latest engines. Or maybe it is in the new installation documents, but as Rotax didn't change the engines already flying, I would not lose sleep on the keyswitch vs separate switches problem. Hundreds of airplanes have been flying for years with a standard ignition keyswitch for their Rotax without the slightest issue. I'd even state that the Rotax circuit wiring suggestions are to be taken with a grain of salt, especially concerning the 914. -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:25:26 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions Thanks Joe, good idea. On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 8:20 AM, user9253 wrote: > > Ken, assuming that you are installing a starter contactor, how about > wiring it as shown in Z13/8? > Battery, Battery Contactor, Starter Contactor, Starter > Replace the push button switch in Z13/8 with a momentary key switch like > Mouser part number 611-Y208122A203NQ > Ignore the Mouser Switch Function description. The C&K data sheet shows > that the DPDT that can be wired to function as desired. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457674#457674 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:51 PM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions Thanks Gilles. As I tend to be biased towards the manufacturer when it comes to guidance, I am referring heavily to the Rotax 914 installation instructions. Can you tell me specifically which areas that you feel are suspect? If you could do that it would help me to evaluate their "suggestions" against my installation. On Sun, Jul 3, 2016 at 10:53 AM, GTH wrote: > > *Le 03/07/2016 =C3- 17:17, Ken Ryan a =C3=A9crit : * > > > *With the Rotax the rotary keyed ignition switch is not allowed. > Independent toggles for the ignitions are clearly specified. * > > > Hi Ken and all, > > Didn't know about that. > Maybe it concerns the latest engines. Or maybe it is in the new > installation documents, but as Rotax didn't change the engines already > flying, I would not lose sleep on the keyswitch vs separate switches > problem. > Hundreds of airplanes have been flying for years with a standard ignition > keyswitch for their Rotax without the slightest issue. > I'd even state that the Rotax circuit wiring suggestions are to be taken > with a grain of salt, especially concerning the 914. > > > -- > Best regards, > Gilles > http://contrails.free.fr > http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:51:29 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions From: "user9253" I agree with Gilles. What difference does it make if both ignition switches and start switch are within one housing or are independent switches? Unless you consider the switch handle being a common point of failure. Advantage of individual switches are less cost and easier to replace and troubleshoot. > I'd even state that the Rotax circuit wiring suggestions are to be taken with a grain of salt Agree, how about the warning not to run the engine with regulator terminal C not connected or the regulator will self destruct? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457690#457690 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:09 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hypothetical Battery Contactor Failure From: rayj Bob, Don't tuck that piece of knowledge away just yet. I believe you usage was correct. The following is from my correspondence with my sister. Her qualifications include a B.A. in English, an M.A. in Library Science and a career as a technical writer, copy writer, college instructor teaching creative writing. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- First off, "immeasurably" is the adverbial form of the adjective "immeasurable," so the difference is how they are used in relation to the other parts of the sentence rather than in their fundamental meanings. Cutting to the chase, we begin with the OED definition of "immeasurable" (adjective) which is given as "Not measurable; that cannot be measured; immense." This takes us to the definition of "immeasurably" (adverb) which is given as "To an immeasurable extent or degree; beyond measure; immensely, vastly." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The essence of the terms in question is to describe things that can't be measured. This includes things which are too small to be measured as well as too large to be measured. The terms are also used to describe things which are too large to be measured. From a usage stand point I again refer to my sister's correspondence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... the phrase "benefits immeasurably" (which indeed uses the correct form, an adverb modifying the verb 'benefits')... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bottom line the words "benefits immeasurably" convey the idea correctly and are used properly from a sentence construction stand point. Hope this information is useful. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 07/02/2016 08:31 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 10:48 AM 7/1/2016, you wrote: >> >> >> [quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]At 08:13 AM 6/30/2016, you wrote: >> >> > >> > In the mean time, as long >> > as you don't hit the alternator with a really BIG load >> > (which few system are capable of doing anyhow), the >> > modern alternator runs self-excited and benefits immeasurably >> > from battery presence with respect to noise. >> >> >> Just to clarify, did you really mean "benefits immeasurably"? I think >> maybe the opposite. >> >> Immeasurable: Too large, extensive or extreme to measure. > > I've been thinking that word described an unquantifiable > entity; impossible to express in terms of quantity for any reason. > In fact, I've learned that it refers not to generally unknowable > numbers but only to nebulously large numbers. > > I can go to bed tonight knowing something I did not > know this morning . . . it's a good day. Thanks for > the heads-up! > > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.