Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:11 AM - Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines (Richard Dudley)
2. 05:57 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
3. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
4. 09:31 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Stephen Richards)
5. 10:41 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
6. 02:13 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 02:16 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 02:20 PM - Re: Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 02:31 PM - Re: Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines (Richard Dudley)
10. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
11. 03:23 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
12. 03:29 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
13. 03:44 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
14. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Mat,
I have been on the RV list, RV-6 list and Aeroelectric list for about 16
years.
I sold my RV-6A in 2008 and have monitored those lists ever since. I
consider
all your lists a great service to the aviation community and especially
to the
home building community. They were a great help to me while building
my RV-6A and even enjoyed them, even after selling my airplane.
I would like to discontinue my subscriptions. I have long since
lost my login and pass words. So, I have been unable to unsubscribe
on your website. Over the years, I have received e-mailings to
two different addresses: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net and
rhdudley331@cfl.rr.com.
Please unsuscribe me form all Matronix lists.
Thank you in advance.
Yours truly,
Richard H Dudley
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 03/07/2016 21:30, Ken Ryan a crit :
/
> /Thanks Gilles. As I tend to be biased towards the manufacturer when
> it comes to guidance, I am referring heavily to the Rotax 914
> installation instructions. Can you tell me specifically which areas
> that you feel are suspect? If you could do that it would help me to
> evaluate their "suggestions" against my installation./
/
/Hi Ken and all,
It took me some time to download and peruse the latest 914 Installation
Manual (February 2015).
Concerning the ignition switches, it seems there has been no changes
since the 1996 version that was current when we wired our project. The
manual just mentions
"Type : two separate, suitable on-off switches" (page 114 newer edition)
The Rotax 914 relies on two electrical pumps to keep running.
Rotax suggests to feed the main pump from the voltage
rectifier/regulator, and the aux pump from the main bus.
If the regulator fails - not a rare occurence - you are left with only
the aux pump and the battery to stay aloft.
I feel a critical pump should run direct from a battery bus.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Thanks Giles. Does that mean that you would run both pumps from the same
battery bus, or just the main pump? I thought about putting them both on
the battery bus but that would violate the clearly stated requirement that
"...the fuel pumps are connected on two completely independent power
supplies." On airplane that you are familiar with that have both generator
and alternator, do they both feed the same battery? Rotax in British
Columbia steered me away from trying to combine the outputs, even though
that is what is shown on the installation manual drawing.
The way I have things drawn now I have the main pump wired to the
integrated generator (as shown in the 914 installation manual) but I have
the auxiliary pump wired to a battery bus. The auxiliary pump should run
continuously as long as the external alternator is working. If both
alternator and generator were to quit, then it would be battery only on the
auxiliary pump.
My current drawing is different from the Rotax 914 installation manual in
that I don't have the integrated generator connected to the main bus
(except through a momentary contact switch for exciting it into action). So
the only thing the generator and regulator are doing is powering that one
pump. I also plan on mounting the regulator on the cabin side of the
firewall, where it is cooler. I am thinking that given the low load and
cooler environment, the regulator might be more reliable.
All comments are appreciated. My starting/charging/fuel pump wiring is
still all on paper only at this point, so I can still make changes.
Ken
On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 4:55 AM, GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr> wrote:
>
> *Le 03/07/2016 =C3- 21:30, Ken Ryan a =C3=A9crit : *
>
> *Thanks Gilles. As I tend to be biased towards the manufacturer when it
> comes to guidance, I am referring heavily to the Rotax 914 installation
> instructions. Can you tell me specifically which areas that you feel are
> suspect? If you could do that it would help me to evaluate their
> "suggestions" against my installation.*
>
>
> Hi Ken and all,
>
> It took me some time to download and peruse the latest 914 Installation
> Manual (February 2015).
>
> Concerning the ignition switches, it seems there has been no changes sinc
e
> the 1996 version that was current when we wired our project. The manual
> just mentions
> "Type : two separate, suitable on-off switches" (page 114 newer edition)
>
> The Rotax 914 relies on two electrical pumps to keep running.
> Rotax suggests to feed the main pump from the voltage rectifier/regulator
,
> and the aux pump from the main bus.
> If the regulator fails - not a rare occurence - you are left with only
> the aux pump and the battery to stay aloft.
> I feel a critical pump should run direct from a battery bus.
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
I understood Rotax recommended separate switches so you could turn the engi
ne on the starter with ignition off to check oil pressure after a oil chang
e. We have fitted a keyed ignition switch as we were given one and a start
pushbutton, Not ready to run engine yet.
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: "GTH" <gilles.thesee@free.fr>
Sent: =8E03/=8E07/=8E2016 20:25
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions
Le 03/07/2016 =C3- 17:17, Ken Ryan a =C3=A9crit :
With the Rotax the rotary keyed ignition switch is not allowed. Independent
toggles for the ignitions are clearly specified.
Hi Ken and all,
Didn't know about that.
Maybe it concerns the latest engines. Or maybe it is in the new installatio
n documents, but as Rotax didn't change the engines already flying, I would
not lose sleep on the keyswitch vs separate switches problem.
Hundreds of airplanes have been flying for years with a standard ignition k
eyswitch for their Rotax without the slightest issue.
I'd even state that the Rotax circuit wiring suggestions are to be taken wi
th a grain of salt, especially concerning the 914.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Thanks for that info Stephen. Makes sense to me.
On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Stephen Richards <
stephencliverichards@gmail.com> wrote:
> I understood Rotax recommended separate switches so you could turn the
> engine on the starter with ignition off to check oil pressure after a oil
> change. We have fitted a keyed ignition switch as we were given one and a
> start pushbutton, Not ready to run engine yet.
> Clive
> ------------------------------
> From: GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr>
> Sent: =8E03/=8E07/=8E2016 20:25
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Z-13/8 Questions
>
>
> *Le 03/07/2016 =C3- 17:17, Ken Ryan a =C3=A9crit : *
>
>
> *With the Rotax the rotary keyed ignition switch is not allowed.
> Independent toggles for the ignitions are clearly specified. *
>
>
> Hi Ken and all,
>
> Didn't know about that.
> Maybe it concerns the latest engines. Or maybe it is in the new
> installation documents, but as Rotax didn't change the engines already
> flying, I would not lose sleep on the keyswitch vs separate switches
> problem.
> Hundreds of airplanes have been flying for years with a standard ignition
> keyswitch for their Rotax without the slightest issue.
> I'd even state that the Rotax circuit wiring suggestions are to be taken
> with a grain of salt, especially concerning the 914.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
At 07:55 AM 7/4/2016, you wrote:
>Le 03/07/2016 =C3 21:30, Ken Ryan a =C3=A9crit=C2 :
>>Thanks Gilles. As I tend to be biased towards
>>the manufacturer when it comes to guidance, I
>>am referring heavily to the Rotax 914
>>installation instructions. Can you tell me
>>specifically which areas that you feel are
>>suspect? If you could do that it would help me
>>to evaluate their "suggestions" against my installation.
>
>Hi Ken and all,
>
>It took me some time to download and peruse the
>latest 914 Installation Manual (February 2015).
>
>Concerning the ignition switches, it seems there
>has been no changes since the 1996 version that
>was current when we wired our project. The manual just mentions
>"Type : two separate, suitable on-off switches" (page 114 newer edition)
>
>The Rotax 914 relies on two electrical pumps to keep running.
>Rotax suggests to feed the main pump from the
>voltage rectifier/regulator, and the aux pump from the main bus.
>If the regulator fails - not a rare occurence
>-=C2 you are left with only the aux pump and the battery to stay aloft.
>I feel a critical pump should run direct from a battery bus.
How is one 'critical' and the other not?
The magic in having two pumps and separate
power sources is that the likelihood of
dual failures in any given tank of fuel
is vanishingly small. If the engine runs
per published performance specs on either
pump, then there are no 'critical' pumps,
just one pump backing up another pump.
How would you ever get down to one, battery
operated pump? Wasn't his airplane going to
get an external alternator in addition to
the stock, 912/914 PM alternator-rectifier/regulator?
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
>
>If the regulator fails - not a rare occurence
The failure driver for the Rotax/Ducatti R/R
has root cause in thermal considerations . . .
where the ship attempts to use full rated output
from the power source.
What kind of fuel pump are we talking about?
How much current does it draw? Certainly nothing
approaching the 18A capability of the power
source.
It seems that the rather strange recommendation
for dedicating the stock Alternator-R/R to simple
powering of the fuel pump is a hedge . . . with
loads limited to a fraction of the system's
advertised output capabilities, the regulator
should last a very long time.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines |
>
>I would like to discontinue my subscriptions. I have long since
>lost my login and pass words. So, I have been unable to unsubscribe
>on your website. Over the years, I have received e-mailings to
>two different addresses: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net and
>rhdudley331@cfl.rr.com.
>Please unsuscribe me form all Matronix lists.
You don't need a password to subscribe/unsubscribe
the email lists . . . only for browser access to
the forums.
Go to http://matrontics.com/subscribe and you'll
be offered a page that will let you modify your
emailed list subscriptions. After dropping from
the lists, you'll get one last email asking
you to confirm the decision.
Good luck!
Bob . . .
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV6-List: Official RV6-List Usage Guidelines |
Thanks, Bob!!!
RH Dudley
On 7/4/2016 5:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>>
>> I would like to discontinue my subscriptions. I have long since
>> lost my login and pass words. So, I have been unable to unsubscribe
>> on your website. Over the years, I have received e-mailings to
>> two different addresses: rhdudley1@bellsouth.net and
>> rhdudley331@cfl.rr.com.
>> Please unsuscribe me form all Matronix lists.
>
> You don't need a password to subscribe/unsubscribe
> the email lists . . . only for browser access to
> the forums.
>
> Go to http://matrontics.com/subscribe
> <http://matrontics.com/subscribe> and you'll
> be offered a page that will let you modify your
> emailed list subscriptions. After dropping from
> the lists, you'll get one last email asking
> you to confirm the decision.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Thanks for those comments Bob. Your reasoning makes sense to me.
Sent from my Android. Sorry Steve.
On Jul 4, 2016 1:23 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> If the regulator fails - not a rare occurence
>
>
> The failure driver for the Rotax/Ducatti R/R
> has root cause in thermal considerations . . .
> where the ship attempts to use full rated output
> from the power source.
>
> What kind of fuel pump are we talking about?
> How much current does it draw? Certainly nothing
> approaching the 18A capability of the power
> source.
>
> It seems that the rather strange recommendation
> for dedicating the stock Alternator-R/R to simple
> powering of the fuel pump is a hedge . . . with
> loads limited to a fraction of the system's
> advertised output capabilities, the regulator
> should last a very long time.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 04/07/2016 17:52, Ken Ryan a crit :
/
> /Thanks Giles. Does that mean that you would run both pumps from the
> same battery bus, or just the main pump? I thought about putting them
> both on the battery bus but that would violate the clearly stated
> requirement that "...the fuel pumps are connected on two completely
> independent power supplies." /
On our airplane the main pump runs from the main battery bus any time
the ignition switch is on.
The aux pump runs from a dedicated aux battery fed through a battery
management module.
> /On airplane that you are familiar with that have both generator and
> alternator, do they both feed the same battery?/
I'm aware of only one other Rotax aircraft with two alternators, but I
don't know how they wired their machine.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Le 04/07/2016 18:30, Stephen Richards a crit :
> I understood Rotax recommended separate switches so you could turn the
> engine on the starter with ignition off to check oil pressure after a
> oil change. We have fitted a keyed ignition switch as we were given
> one and a start pushbutton, Not ready to run engine yet.
I'll bet the two separate ignition switches are for the magneto checks
before each flight.
Rotax doesn't give recommadations for the starter switch, which may or
may not be combined with an ignition keyswitch.
It's up to the homebuilder.
There are different ways of priming the oil circuit, but no problem for
oil pressure if you perform the oil changes as recommended. Unless you
drain the oil lines, but then the procedure is in in the maintenance
manual, separate starter switch or not.
--
A+
Gilles
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 04/07/2016 23:10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a crit :
/
> /
> If the engine runs
> per published performance specs on either
> pump, then there are no 'critical' pumps,
> just one pump backing up another pump.
> /
Hi Bob,
Of course.
I'd say that for us the "critical" one is the pump that we think should
run anytime the ignition is on.
And the backup the one that is pilot operated.
I saw so many voltage regulator failures around that I would not like to
depend on the regulator to keep the engine running
>
> /How would you ever get down to one, battery
> operated pump? Wasn't his airplane going to
> get an external alternator in addition to
> the stock, 912/914 PM alternator-rectifier/regulator?/
The point was "why do you say some of Rotax suggestions are to be taken
with a grain of salt ?", not any suggestion as to how Ken should or
shouldn't wire his airplane.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Gilles, I hear you loud and clear on depending on the regulator to keep the
engine running. At this point, I am considering that to the the weakest
point in my proposed design. But, I am not convinced that there is a
significant probability of regulator failure, given that my plan is to run
only the pump (approx 5 amps) off the generator. That would mean that the
regulator is only being stressed to less than 1/3 capacity. Also, given
that I plan to install the regulator on the cabin side of the firewall,
that would further mitigate heat issues. Like Bob, I'm thinking this should
significantly lower the probability of regulator failure.
My question for you, and for the group, is this: what is the normal (if
there is a normal) mode of failure for these regulators? Do they just
suddenly stop working, or is there typically some warning of failure?
As always, thanks. It's amazing how many things there are to consider.
Ken
On Mon, Jul 4, 2016 at 2:41 PM, GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr> wrote:
>
> *Le 04/07/2016 =C3- 23:10, Robert L. Nuckolls, III a =C3=A9crit : *
>
>
> * If the engine runs per published performance specs on either pump
,
> then there are no 'critical' pumps, just one pump backing up another
> pump. *
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Of course.
> I'd say that for us the "critical" one is the pump that we think should
> run anytime the ignition is on.
> And the backup the one that is pilot operated.
> I saw so many voltage regulator failures around that I would not like to
> depend on the regulator to keep the engine running
>
>
> * How would you ever get down to one, battery operated pump? Wasn't his
> airplane going to get an external alternator in addition to the stock
,
> 912/914 PM alternator-rectifier/regulator?*
>
>
> The point was "why do you say some of Rotax suggestions are to be taken
> with a grain of salt ?", not any suggestion as to how Ken should or
> shouldn't wire his airplane.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
>
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