Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:38 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253)
2. 05:26 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
3. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
4. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
5. 08:41 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253)
6. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Ken Ryan)
7. 10:05 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
9. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Questions (GTH)
10. 11:05 AM - Re: Z-13/8 Questions (user9253)
11. 11:39 AM - EXPBUS Circuit Failure (hmanvel)
12. 08:39 PM - Dead battery (Dennis Wright)
13. 08:54 PM - Re: Dead battery (Charlie England)
14. 10:56 PM - Re: Dead battery (Peter Pengilly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Mike Miller has done autopsies on several failed Ducati regulators and he attributes
the failures to poor manufacturing and vibration, not from heat. Some RV-12
owners have reported a gradual failure where they get low voltage alarms
at RPMs where they used to have normal voltage. Each regulator could fail differently.
Some builders are reluctant to mount the regulator inside of the passenger compartment
because they do not want to breath smoke if the regulator does fail
in that location.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457742#457742
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 05/07/2016 13:37, user9253 a crit :
/
> <fransew@gmail.com> Mike Miller has done autopsies on several failed
> Ducati regulators and he attributes the failures to poor manufacturing
> and vibration, not from heat. Some RV-12 owners have reported a
> gradual failure where they get low voltage alarms at RPMs where they
> used to have normal voltage. Each regulator could fail differently.
> Some builders are reluctant to mount the regulator inside of the
> passenger compartment because they do not want to breath smoke if the
> regulator does fail in that location. /
Hi all,
In the past years we performed some study of the Rotax alternator and
regulator.
My buddy Jerome Delamarre studied the functionning of the switching
regulator, and conducted some thermal analysis of the unit. It seems
there is definitely a thermal issue with the regulator.
I published some data here
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
The rest of the study will be published some day in an indefinite future ;-)
Re the smoke, the components are potted inside a metal case, and the
failed regulators I saw showed no external trace of failure. So the
possibility of smoke seems to be remote.
For instance, about 500 Dyn'Aero MCRs have the regulator inside the
cabin, and although the cases of regulator failures are not infrequent,
I never heard of a smoking unit.
What *can* be happen though, is a capacitor bursting, very disturbing
for the crew they told me.
Bottom line, after some thorough analysis of the Ducati regulator and a
Schicke, we elected to install a Schicke GR4. Worked flawlessly since
the beginning.
FWIW
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Thanks Joe, all good points.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 3:37 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Mike Miller has done autopsies on several failed Ducati regulators and he
> attributes the failures to poor manufacturing and vibration, not from
> heat. Some RV-12 owners have reported a gradual failure where they get low
> voltage alarms at RPMs where they used to have normal voltage. Each
> regulator could fail differently.
> Some builders are reluctant to mount the regulator inside of the
> passenger compartment because they do not want to breath smoke if the
> regulator does fail in that location.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457742#457742
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
Thanks for the input. Reading the information you linked to, it looks like
your conclusion was that if the regulator is making full power (240 watts)
then in order for the operating temperature to remain safe, the ambient
temperature must be no greater than MINUS 59 C (-74F). Meanwhile, Rotax
says that ambient temperature must not exceed PLUS 90 C (+194F). That's
quite a discrepancy, -74F vs +194F. Please, tell me I have mis-interpreted
your paper.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 4:24 AM, GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr> wrote:
>
> *Le 05/07/2016 =C3- 13:37, user9253 a =C3=A9crit : *
>
<fransew@gmail.com>
>
> Mike Miller has done autopsies on several failed Ducati regulators and he
attributes the failures to poor manufacturing and vibration, not from heat
. Some RV-12 owners have reported a gradual failure where they get low vol
tage alarms at RPMs where they used to have normal voltage. Each regulator
could fail differently.
> Some builders are reluctant to mount the regulator inside of the passen
ger compartment because they do not want to breath smoke if the regulator d
oes fail in that location.
> *
>
> Hi all,
>
> In the past years we performed some study of the Rotax alternator and
> regulator.
> My buddy Jerome Delamarre studied the functionning of the switching
> regulator, and conducted some thermal analysis of the unit. It seems ther
e
> is definitely a thermal issue with the regulator.
> I published some data here
> http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
> The rest of the study will be published some day in an indefinite future
> ;-)
>
> Re the smoke, the components are potted inside a metal case, and the
> failed regulators I saw showed no external trace of failure. So the
> possibility of smoke seems to be remote.
> For instance, about 500 Dyn'Aero MCRs have the regulator inside the cabin
,
> and although the cases of regulator failures are not infrequent, I never
> heard of a smoking unit.
> What *can* be happen though, is a capacitor bursting, very disturbing for
> the crew they told me.
>
> Bottom line, after some thorough analysis of the Ducati regulator and a
> Schicke, we elected to install a Schicke GR4. Worked flawlessly since the
> beginning.
> FWIW
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Gilles
> http://contrails.free.fr
> http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
The ambient temperature can be greater if the air is moving.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457750#457750
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
So I guess if it's in the high pressure area of the engine compartment, it
should be good in flight, but maybe not so much during taxi and cool down?
Maybe a timer like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG2f2ZjPxQ&t=0s
could be connected to a computer fan such that the fan always runs when the
master switch is on, and continues to run for a period of time (10
minutes?) after the master switch is turned off. Alternatively, it could be
set to come on only after the master switch is turned off.
The regulator on a UL engine that I installed on a Zenith had two features
for dissipating heat: 1) it was mounted to aluminum engine shrouding using
a heat conducting gel to facilitate heat transfer from the regulator body
to the aluminum engine shroud and 2) it was blasted by cooling air through
a dedicated 1 inch scat hose.
On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 7:39 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The ambient temperature can be greater if the air is moving.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457750#457750
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
At 06:37 AM 7/5/2016, you wrote:
>
>Mike Miller has done autopsies on several failed Ducati regulators
>and he attributes the failures to poor manufacturing and vibration,
vibration in a potted assembly?
> not from heat.
Has he published a teardown report?
> Some RV-12 owners have reported a gradual failure where they get
> low voltage alarms at RPMs where they used to have normal
> voltage. Each regulator could fail differently.
Color me skeptical . . . these regulators have
been in production for decades. There must have
been thousands sold. Over that period of time
and numbers of examples, I find it curious that
a constellation of failure modes would emerge.
At the debut of the 912/914 series engines on
this side of the pond . . . a SINGLE phase
PM dynamo in the 18-20A class was really pushing
the state of the art. The control devices
capable of handling that much current would
normally have been mounted directly to metallic
heatsinks with fins.
To my knowledge, production examples still
expect the potting compound to bring BTUs to
the outside world. Why Rotax continues to
sell/recommend this device is curious considering
the fact that there are much more robust/modern
devices available.
The OBAM aviation community has been slicing/dicing
this sad piece of technology for too long. It
has been thermally challenged since day-one.
I cannot argue against 'constellations' of
other failure modes . . . but debating a broader
spectrum of issues seems a waste of $time$.
It's like worrying about whether or not the
a/c and stereo are working in a car with
3 flat tires.
>Some builders are reluctant to mount the regulator inside of the
>passenger compartment because they do not want to breath smoke
>if the regulator does fail in that location.
Has one EVER 'smoked'? Has a 'smoked' R/R
every been preserved for examination? Our ranks are
rife with anecdotal information on a product
with a very long service history . . . and
and continues to be offered by a company with
a lot of 'skin in the game'. Why jepoardize
consumer relations on a product costing
$thousands$ by sticking with a demonstrably
marginal accessory that probably costs them
less than $50?
I've observed some pretty strange marketing
decisions by big-name manufacturers.
To be sure, there are really powerful cultural
forces in company behaviors. I could tell you
some interesting stories about the intractability
of several supposed European 'project partners.'
So just maybe, the Rotax decision to stay with
Ducatti has nothing to do with science and
economics.
Emacs!
My advice to Rotax customers. Pitch the Ducatti
R/R right out of the box . . . or put it up on
eBay. There's a bunch of ultralights flying the
912 that can probably make good use of an R/R that
should probably be rated at 10A.
The Silent-Hektick electronics cavity volume
is a fraction of that in the Ducatti. Square-
inches of fin area for heat dissipation is much
greater. Further, the thing is RATED at 47A . . .
so de-rating to run it on an 18A Rotax dynamo
seems a rational decision that goes toward
longevity and serviceability.
There are probably other devices out there
with equal or better performance than the Ducatti.
There will come a time when incandescent landing
lights will be a thing of the past along with carburetors,
VOR receivers and E6B computers. It's time for the
Ducatti R/R to be retired as the best Rotax could
offer at introduction . . . but long since
surpassed by better ideas.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 05/07/2016 17:23, Ken Ryan a crit :
/
> /Thanks for the input. Reading the information you linked to, it looks
> like your conclusion was that if the regulator is making full power
> (240 watts) then in order for the operating temperature to remain
> safe, the ambient temperature must be no greater than MINUS 59 C
> (-74F). Meanwhile, Rotax says that ambient temperature must not exceed
> PLUS 90 C (+194F). That's quite a discrepancy, -74F vs +194F. Please,
> tell me I have mis-interpreted your paper./
Hi Ken,
You correctly read the info on my webpage.
We got the regulator thermal characteristics actually measured in a lab.
Concerning what Rotax says, well unless they publish their own results,
I'd stick with the grain of salt ;-)
Especially when you consider the failures around as soon as people draw
much current from their alternator & regulator.
Besides they are not wrong : temperatures no greater than 90 C doesn't
mean that 70 or 80 C are safe...
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
/Le 05/07/2016 18:18, Ken Ryan a crit :
/
> /
> /
> / two features for dissipating heat: 1) it was mounted to aluminum
> engine shrouding using a heat conducting gel to facilitate heat
> transfer from the regulator body to the aluminum engine shroud and 2)
> it was blasted by cooling air through a dedicated 1 inch scat hose./
Add to that a safe and cool place with no exhaust, turbo, engine block
radiating or convecting heat at the regulator (i.e. not in the engine
comparment ;-), and everything will be well.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Questions |
I am not taking sides here, just reporting Mike Miller's postings. Joe G.
> My motivation for the analyses was based on the abysmal failure rate, with no
good data available on a cause. I cant make any broad claims as to the cause
of the failures, only claims based on a sample of one unit. I think the electrical
design is fine, simple and safe for the use in a VFR aircraft, Im not so
sure about the mechanical design/assembly. I first thought the failures were based
on the stress of thermal cycles. After the analysis I think its simply vibration.
I base this on the review of the fretted solder joints you can see in
the pictures. The main failure on mine (and Im guessing yours too) is a broken
lead on the SCR (the SCR is the power switch that controls the regulator output.)
The likely cause of the failure is the movement between SCRs bolted to the
case (required as a heat sink) and floating PCB in the epoxy jel. Your post
questioned the SCR installation with the bent over leads to attach to the PCB.
This is not uncommon, for a component requiring a heat sink. I would be confident
your regulator is fixed by re-soldering the SCR leads. I would touch up
all three pins, on both SCRs, also inspect all the other solder connections for
fretting. I dont think you need to remove the PCB from the case, unless an SCR
lead is broken at the component (like mine was.) I use several epoxy potting
compounds here at work, so for me repotting was a non issue. I did use a harder
epoxy to reduce the gel effect. I suggest you not remove the board from the
case, and after you are finished, cover the bottom with high temp RTV. There
are no heat issues on the bottom of the regulator. All you want to do is seal
it up, Just my opinion.
>
> Oh, the reason you found two layers of epoxy, its part of the manufacturing process.
The regulator is filled with epoxy, placed in a vacuum chamber to remove
the air bubbles, after curing its topped off again.
>
> I asked LEAF about the two failed regulators I returned under warrantee. They
said they just trash them, Rotax doesnt want them back. They also told me, Rotax
will not give me anymore credits for failed regulators, because the problem
is the aircraft/aircraft design, not the regulator. I sent Vans a feedback form
for the failures, not to blame Vans for the problem, I just thought they would
have more pull with Rotax to get it fixed. With that said, I think Rotax
knows there is a problem, I say this based on the cost of the regulator. $160.00
may be a lot of money, but its cheap as Rotax prices go. Im guessing Ducati
sells it for about $50 to Rotax, but it goes through Kodiak, in the Bahamas,
then a distributor (LEAF/Lockwood,) each tacking on freight and markup, before
we see it. "
See http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=1092091&postcount=23 for pictures
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457760#457760
Message 11
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| Subject: | EXPBUS Circuit Failure |
I found several conversations on this site relating to the Expbus system, and Electronic
Circuit Breakers. I wanted to relate my recent experience. I have
two Expbus systems in my Rutan Defiant. They have operated flawlessly for 16
years, or about 870 hours on the airplane. Recently one circuit, with two devices
on it, started shutting down intermittently, but with no indication of a
short on the indicator board. I found the problem the other day, by pulling the
two devices (terra nav and Gemini backup efis) and checking voltage at each
connector. Both read normal 12+ volts. I then plugged in the Gemini, checked
voltage at the nav connector, now it was 3.4 volts. I plugged in the nav radio,
pulled out the Gemini, and IT was now showing about 3.4 volts. Apparently
the one circuit/breaker was dropping out with any sort of load on it. Not sure
why, but I have fixed it by wiring an inline fuse to the devices, and disconnecting
from the output on the EXPBUS.
--------
Harry Manvel
Defiant N2HM
PTK / Pontiac, MI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457761#457761
Message 12
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From: Dennis Wright
> Trying to figure out if I have an issue with my electrical system in my sonex
or just bad luck. Have had multiple battery failures. Here's the situation.
Battery is an odyssey pc625. , 12 volt. Engine is an Aerovee 2180. First flight
was in December 2015. Battery at that time was about 2.5 years old. During
the time before first flight had to charge batter several times due to minimal
use. After about 5 hrs of flying started experiencing a dead battery. Would
charge, fly, and next day battery would be dead again. Figured it was due to
age and fact that battery had sat uncharged for prolonged periods. Replaced
battery. After about 15 hrs flying time (about 3 months) on new battery, went
dead. Tried to charge but would not hold a charge. Had battery tested and showed
that it had a bad cell. Replaced battery. After about 25 hrs (about 3 months),
another dead battery and will not hold a charge Each time everything
is working perfect one day and dead the next. Not blo!
> wing any fuses, no smoking wires, system voltage is showing 13.5 volts when
I'm flying. Have not checked to see if there is a load on the battery when the
battery solenoid is open but do not have anything connected on the battery side
of the solenoid so unless the solenoid is bad, shouldn't have any load when
off. Would appreciate any thoughts on what the problem might be or where to
start to figure it out.
>
> From: Dennis Wright
>
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Dead battery |
On 7/5/2016 10:37 PM, Dennis Wright wrote:
>
>
> From: Dennis Wright
>
>> Trying to figure out if I have an issue with my electrical system in my sonex
or just bad luck. Have had multiple battery failures. Here's the situation.
Battery is an odyssey pc625. , 12 volt. Engine is an Aerovee 2180. First flight
was in December 2015. Battery at that time was about 2.5 years old. During
the time before first flight had to charge batter several times due to minimal
use. After about 5 hrs of flying started experiencing a dead battery. Would
charge, fly, and next day battery would be dead again. Figured it was due to
age and fact that battery had sat uncharged for prolonged periods. Replaced
battery. After about 15 hrs flying time (about 3 months) on new battery, went
dead. Tried to charge but would not hold a charge. Had battery tested and showed
that it had a bad cell. Replaced battery. After about 25 hrs (about 3
months), another dead battery and will not hold a charge Each time everything
is working perfect one day and dead the next. Not b!
> lo!
>> wing any fuses, no smoking wires, system voltage is showing 13.5 volts when
I'm flying. Have not checked to see if there is a load on the battery when the
battery solenoid is open but do not have anything connected on the battery
side of the solenoid so unless the solenoid is bad, shouldn't have any load when
off. Would appreciate any thoughts on what the problem might be or where to
start to figure it out.
>>
>> From: Dennis Wright
>>
>>
13.5v won't charge the battery.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Dead battery |
Agree, charging voltage should be more like 14.2 to 14.5 v, especially for
an Odessey type battery.
On 6 Jul 2016 05:07, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 7/5/2016 10:37 PM, Dennis Wright wrote:
>
>> wright.dennis@icloud.com>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Dennis Wright
>>
>> Trying to figure out if I have an issue with my electrical system in my
>>> sonex or just bad luck. Have had multiple battery failures. Here's the
>>> situation. Battery is an odyssey pc625. , 12 volt. Engine is an Aerovee
>>> 2180. First flight was in December 2015. Battery at that time was about
>>> 2.5 years old. During the time before first flight had to charge batter
>>> several times due to minimal use. After about 5 hrs of flying started
>>> experiencing a dead battery. Would charge, fly, and next day battery would
>>> be dead again. Figured it was due to age and fact that battery had sat
>>> uncharged for prolonged periods. Replaced battery. After about 15 hrs
>>> flying time (about 3 months) on new battery, went dead. Tried to charge
>>> but would not hold a charge. Had battery tested and showed that it had a
>>> bad cell. Replaced battery. After about 25 hrs (about 3 months), another
>>> dead battery and will not hold a charge Each time everything is working
>>> perfect one day and dead the next. Not !
>>>
>> b!
>
>> lo!
>>
>>> wing any fuses, no smoking wires, system voltage is showing 13.5 volts
>>> when I'm flying. Have not checked to see if there is a load on the battery
>>> when the battery solenoid is open but do not have anything connected on the
>>> battery side of the solenoid so unless the solenoid is bad, shouldn't have
>>> any load when off. Would appreciate any thoughts on what the problem might
>>> be or where to start to figure it out.
>>>
>>> From: Dennis Wright
>>>
>>>
>>> 13.5v won't charge the battery.
>
>
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