---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 07/06/16: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:16 AM - Re: Dead battery (Bill Watson) 2. 08:38 AM - Re: EXPBUS Circuit Failure (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:23 AM - dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where (Ken Ryan) 4. 09:50 AM - Re: Dead battery (Alec Myers) 5. 10:18 AM - Re: dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where (user9253) 6. 10:39 AM - Re: dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 10:45 AM - Re: Dead battery (John Morgensen) 8. 11:29 AM - Re: Dead battery (Bill Watson) 9. 02:14 PM - Re: Dead battery (user9253) 10. 04:58 PM - Re: Dead battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 04:58 PM - Re: Dead battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 12. 06:22 PM - Re: Dead battery (John Morgensen) 13. 06:39 PM - Re: Dead battery (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery From: Bill Watson And I can confirm, that if your system charging voltage is 13.5, you will kill your battery in amazing short order. You have to get it up to 14.5 or so. In the mean time, charge it on a proper charger (for AGM Batts) between flights. Bill "killer of at least 3" Watson On 7/6/2016 1:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > > Agree, charging voltage should be more like 14.2 to 14.5 v, especially > for an Odessey type battery. > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:38:00 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: EXPBUS Circuit Failure > Apparently the one circuit/breaker was dropping out with any sort > of load on it. Not sure why, but I have fixed it by wiring an > inline fuse to the devices, and disconnecting from the output on the EXPBUS. I don't know what the failure modes are for the polyfuses . . . we looked at them on two separate occasions at Beech and just couldn't figure out how to integrate them into system wiring . . . Had the idea progressed any further, we proably would have done some endurance/halt testing on the devices to see if their weaknesses would present . . . but given the service life demonstrated on your airplane, I'm not sure we could have 'turned that rock over' as a part of preliminary design studies. Those polyfuses are widely available parts. If you choose to identify and replace the one that went belly up, I can help you find a replacement. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:23:04 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: AeroElectric-List: dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where When and where should electrical connections receive grease? What type of grease should be used? --Thanks. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:41 AM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery Just to add one more datapoint, I'd been running on a charging voltage of 13 .2 to 13.4 for three years+ on a Comcorde sealed gel battery - and while it h as been sluggish starts for the past three Canadian winters I don't see any e vidence that it's damaged, certainly not dead. On Jul 6, 2016, at 11:15, Bill Watson wrote: And I can confirm, that if your system charging voltage is 13.5, you will ki ll your battery in amazing short order. You have to get it up to 14.5 or so. In the mean time, charge it on a prope r charger (for AGM Batts) between flights. Bill "killer of at least 3" Watson > On 7/6/2016 1:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: > Agree, charging voltage should be more like 14.2 to 14.5 v, especially for an Odessey type battery. > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:18:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where From: "user9253" Everything you ever wanted to know about grease and electrical connections: http://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm I have never used conductive grease on electrical connections. I use dielectric grease on connections exposed to moisture. Dielectric grease does NOT increase resistance in a connection because it gets squeezed out from between electrical terminals. That squeezed out grease prevents air and dirt and water from entering. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457798#457798 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:31 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: dielectric grease vs conductive grease: when and where At 11:20 AM 7/6/2016, you wrote: >When and where should electrical connections receive grease? What >type of grease should be used? --Thanks. If the connections are subject to water drip/splash. Dow Corning DC4 is my favorite. http://tinyurl.com/hbty5z2 http://tinyurl.com/heqjw25 it's a silicone based grease that doesn't attack rubbers and plastics. There are, no doubt, others. We also used DC4 to 'pot' coax connectors on towers before wrapping with Scotch 33 tape. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:43 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery From: John Morgensen I have a similar problem with an RV4 that I purchased. Dead battery. Discovered field wire broken - repaired. Field wire is jumpered directly to the alternator output. No fuse, cb, or switch. The alternator appears to be internally regulated. I am seeing no more than 13.5 volts. With no load at all on the field wire, is that what is keeping the voltage down? john On 7/6/2016 8:15 AM, Bill Watson wrote: > And I can confirm, that if your system charging voltage is 13.5, you > will kill your battery in amazing short order. > > You have to get it up to 14.5 or so. In the mean time, charge it on a > proper charger (for AGM Batts) between flights. > > Bill "killer of at least 3" Watson > > On 7/6/2016 1:53 AM, Peter Pengilly wrote: >> >> Agree, charging voltage should be more like 14.2 to 14.5 v, >> especially for an Odessey type battery. >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Avast logo > > > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > www.avast.com > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:29:33 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery From: Bill Watson On 7/6/2016 1:44 PM, John Morgensen wrote: > > I have a similar problem with an RV4 that I purchased. > > Dead battery. > Discovered field wire broken - repaired. > Field wire is jumpered directly to the alternator output. No fuse, cb, > or switch. > The alternator appears to be internally regulated. > > I am seeing no more than 13.5 volts. > > With no load at all on the field wire, is that what is keeping the > voltage down? Well, charging at 13.5 will kill an Odyssey AGM battery. I have a regulator and alternator - my regulator is adjustable and needed to be set to 14.5 to get a normal charge on my Odysseys. In general, 13.5 is fine for lead acid batteries. I'm doing this from memory and experience but the place to look is the spec sheets. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:07 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Dead battery From: "user9253" JohnInReno, A bad connection could be causing low voltage. Check both ends of the wire from the alternator "B" terminal. Pull hard on the terminals to make sure they are solid with no corrosion. Also check the engine ground wire. The engine mount should NOT be part of the ground circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=457815#457815 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:04 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery > >I have a regulator and alternator - my regulator is adjustable and >needed to be set to 14.5 to get a normal charge on my Odysseys. > >In general, 13.5 is fine for lead acid batteries. It has never been fine for any version of a lead-acid battery. In fact, low voltage warning systems are generally calibrated to come on at or below 13.5 volts. Batteries take on energy at 13.8 and above . . . 14.2 plus/minus 0.2 volts has been the lead-acid legacy setpoint for 70 years or more. B&C sets their regulators for 14.5 to 14.6 out the door. An alternator producing 13.5 will not charge a battery, but it will keep the battery from becoming discharged . . . assuming it was charged before flight. If the aircraft is stored with a charger/maintainer then the engine gets started by a 100% battery. If the alternator set-point is only 13.5, then the battery doesn't get replenished . . . until it gets connected to the charger while parked. Under THIS scenario, the battery is happy as a clam and will last a really long time. Assuming the battery is never supported externally for energy replenishment the 13.5v bus won't top off a battery that has just started the engine. At the same time, the 13.5v bus runs all the electro- whizzies just fine. Starting a well tuned engine only takes 3-5% of a battery's stored energy. So a topped off battery can be expected to take you flying for 5-10 times before you notice that it's getting 'weak'. Whacking it down over a long period of time without replenishment eventually produces the "dead battery" syndrome . . . storing a battery in a low state of charge is hard on its chemistry . . . no matter what kind of lead acid battery it is. We were presented with a 13.5v bus on a 182 a few days ago on a Canadian ship that was suffering the effects off high resistance joints and a poorly adjusted regulator. His "dead battery" symptoms were predictable . . . AGM . . . Flooded . . . it doesn't matter. The charging system needs attention to get the bus up . . . 14.5v is a good target. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:55 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery At 12:44 PM 7/6/2016, you wrote: >Dead battery. >Discovered field wire broken - repaired. >Field wire is jumpered directly to the alternator output. No fuse, >cb, or switch. >The alternator appears to be internally regulated. then that is not a 'field' wire . . . it's a control line that the automotive ECM talks to for turning the alternator off and on. >I am seeing no more than 13.5 volts. >With no load at all on the field wire, is that what is keeping the >voltage down? If repairing the CONTROL line did not correct the problem, then the alternator is broke. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:33 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery From: John Morgensen Sorry if I high-jacked the thread. My problem is a lycoming O-320 and it bothers me that there is no fuse, cb, or switch on the control wire going to the alternator. john On 7/6/2016 4:57 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 12:44 PM 7/6/2016, you wrote: > >> Dead battery. > >> Discovered field wire broken - repaired. >> Field wire is jumpered directly to the alternator output. No fuse, >> cb, or switch. >> The alternator appears to be internally regulated. > > then that is not a 'field' wire . . . it's > a control line that the automotive ECM talks > to for turning the alternator off and on. > >> I am seeing no more than 13.5 volts. >> With no load at all on the field wire, is that what is keeping the >> voltage down? > > If repairing the CONTROL line did not correct > the problem, then the alternator is broke. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:29 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Dead battery At 08:19 PM 7/6/2016, you wrote: >Sorry if I high-jacked the thread. My problem is a lycoming O-320 >and it bothers me that there is no fuse, cb, or switch on the >control wire going to the alternator. This is an OBAM aircraft? Do you have an alternator on/off switch . . . either as a separate device -or- split rocker - etc? It is functionally sufficient to simply wire the control lead of an internally regulated alternator direcdtly to the b-lead or other always-hot source . . . this simply causes the alternator to come on line as soon as the engine starts. At the same time, you have no control over the alternator . . . if you turn the battery switch off, the alternator continues to provide output. If you experience an ov condition, there's no provisions for bringing the runaway alternator to heel. 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