AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Sun 07/31/16


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:48 AM - Alternator failure mode (Owen Baker)
     2. 06:20 AM - Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
     3. 07:28 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Kelly McMullen)
     4. 09:30 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
     5. 10:17 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Charlie England)
     6. 12:13 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
     7. 12:26 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (Robert Borger)
     8. 01:40 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
     9. 01:40 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
    10. 01:48 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
    11. 03:06 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 03:13 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    13. 07:12 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
    14. 07:27 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 04:48:18 AM PST US
    From: "Owen Baker " <bakerocb@cox.net>
    Subject: Alternator failure mode
    7/31/2016 Hello John B, You wrote: =9CWhy would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator?=9D In order to ensure that their low voltage warning system is working. The checklist for the shut down procedure at the end of each flight in my EAB KIS TR-1 airplane includes turning the alternator OFF (via a switch in the field breaker line) while the engine is still running and ensuring that: 1) The flashing light for the low voltage warning system starts flashing. 2) The Garmin GNS 430W and the Garmin GTX 327 transponder keep working normally on battery power alone. Item 2 above is essential if I am to return to my home base inside the Washington DC SFRA. They would also be nice / essential to have on cross country if my alternator failed** and I wanted to communicate with ATC or a tower prior to making a landing before the battery ran out of amps. OC **PS: In just my small circle of acquaintance pilots I know of two instances (one a type certificated airplane, the other an EAB) where the alternator stopped working because of interrupted field current. One was a loose wire the other an inadvertent alternator shut down. Neither airplane was equipped with low voltage warning and the situation was only discovered after the battery ran down and things stopped working. =========== Time: 01:09:06 AM PST US From: John B <jbsoar@gmail.com> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode Bob- Is there anything worng with using the field breaker as an alternator control switch? Why would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator? John B


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:20:21 AM PST US
    From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
    Subject: Grounding Questions
    Folks, I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane and wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, metal, high wing. The salient points are: 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to get from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel. I see several choices: I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the wing. I don't like this idea, even though it would *probably* be fine. I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from the left position/strobe light, a second wire from the right position/strobe light, etc. I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the grounds for the fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for the landing lights in both wings. I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single wire to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. What thoughts do you have? Thanks. -- Art Z. http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:28:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    I think you are overly obsessing the issue. All of your wing electrics are resistive loads, not radio frequency gizmos. You might gain a smidgeon of accuracy in the fuel sender with a separate ground, but separate grounds for all the rest won't make a hoot of difference. Make a ground connection from wing root to fuselage near wing root. Ground each item locally in the wing. No need to run separate wire from wing root to your central ground point. You could run a separate ground for the fuel sender to central ground, but not likely to make a noticeable difference. TC aircraft use local grounds for all that stuff. You don't say if you plan traditional nav and strobe lights or LEDs. I recommend the latter for lower current draw and no need for a high voltage strobe power supply, and mostly eliminates the one RFI noise source in wings. LEDs will be similar in cost for quality units, so money isn't much of a factor. On 7/31/2016 6:18 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane > and wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, > metal, high wing. The salient points are: > > 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which > means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the > instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and > 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to > get from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel. > > I see several choices: > > I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the > wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the > wing. I don't like this idea, even though it would /probably/ be fine. > > I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector > to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from > the left position/strobe light, a second wire from the right > position/strobe light, etc. > > I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the > grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the > grounds for the fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for > the landing lights in both wings. > > I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single > wire to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. > > What thoughts do you have? Thanks. > > -- Art Z. > > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel >


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:30:13 AM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Hi Art. Everything on my BD-4 wingtips is grounded to the wing spar with no d ifficulties. I think your spar is a much better ground than any wire could b e as far as lights and pitot heat. You're adding weight and complexity to no purpose. Drill a hole in the end of each spar and put a nutplate or rivet n ut in. I would definitely run wires to your single point ground for the fuel gauges . My wing is fibreglass and the fuel gauges were grounded to the fuse and a l ittle corrosion on the ring terminal was enough to throw them off significan tly. Also leave plenty of extra wire in the wings for when you take them off. It' s awful having to remove a wing to plug a wire back in that you pulled loose removing a wingtip. I would leave an extra 2-3' sticking out of the wing ti p and an extra 3' at the wing root. Remember as you pull the wings off the d istance gets almost 2 feet longer before the wing comes off and you can unpl ug the wire. Sebastien > On Jul 31, 2016, at 09:18, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Folks, > > I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane and w ondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, metal, high w ing. The salient points are: > > 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which mea ns I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the instrument p anel to a connector at the wing root, and > 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to ge t from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel. > > I see several choices: > > I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the wi ng spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the wing. I do n't like this idea, even though it would probably be fine. > > I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector to t he grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from the left p osition/strobe light, a second wire from the right position/strobe light, et c. > > I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the grounds for the f uel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for the landing lights in both wings. > > I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single wire t o the grounding block behind the instrument panel. > > What thoughts do you have? Thanks. > > -- Art Z. > > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:17:50 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    I'd agree, but I'd avoid rivnuts like the plague they are. I've never met a rivnut that didn't spin. If you use 'em, at some point you'll be fighting to get the screw out so you can drill them out to replace with plate nuts. On 7/31/2016 11:28 AM, Sebastien wrote: > Hi Art. Everything on my BD-4 wingtips is grounded to the wing spar > with no difficulties. I think your spar is a much better ground than > any wire could be as far as lights and pitot heat. You're adding > weight and complexity to no purpose. Drill a hole in the end of each > spar and put a nutplate or rivet nut in. > > I would definitely run wires to your single point ground for the fuel > gauges. My wing is fibreglass and the fuel gauges were grounded to the > fuse and a little corrosion on the ring terminal was enough to throw > them off significantly. > > Also leave plenty of extra wire in the wings for when you take them > off. It's awful having to remove a wing to plug a wire back in that > you pulled loose removing a wingtip. I would leave an extra 2-3' > sticking out of the wing tip and an extra 3' at the wing root. > Remember as you pull the wings off the distance gets almost 2 feet > longer before the wing comes off and you can unplug the wire. > > Sebastien > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 09:18, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name > <mailto:art@zemon.name>> wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane >> and wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, >> metal, high wing. The salient points are: >> >> 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, >> which means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of >> the instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and >> 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel >> to get from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel. >> >> I see several choices: >> >> I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the >> the wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install >> the wing. I don't like this idea, even though it would /probably/ be >> fine. >> >> I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root >> connector to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a >> wire from the left position/strobe light, a second wire from the >> right position/strobe light, etc. >> >> I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the >> grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the >> grounds for the fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds >> for the landing lights in both wings. >> >> I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single >> wire to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. >> >> What thoughts do you have? Thanks. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel >>


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:13:30 PM PST US
    From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? =8B strobe position lights.pdf <https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRkE/ view?usp=drive_web> =8B Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) -- Art Z. -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:26:04 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Alternator failure mode
    From: Robert Borger <rlborger@mac.com>
    Gents, I have been using this product (SparkBright Eclipse) to monitor the battery voltage on my Europa for a couple years now and it seems to work great. I have a second one which will be installed on the Little Toot Sport Biplane project which is almost complete. http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php Simple Red/Yellow/Green indication. If you see RED, battery is discharging. If you see YELLOW, battery is charged but the alternator isn=99t providing sufficient voltage to maintain. If you see GREEN, battery is charged and alternator is providing sufficient voltage to maintain. If you see alternating RED/GREEN you have an over-voltage situation with the alternator/regulator. It=99s a simple two wire install (red & black) and only requires a small hole in the panel for mounting. I have no interest in the company other than as a satisfied user. Blue skies & tailwinds, Bob Borger Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP 3705 Lynchburg Dr. Corinth, TX 76208-5331 Cel: 817-992-1117 rlborger@mac.com On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote: 7/31/2016 Hello John B, You wrote: =9CWhy would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator?=9D In order to ensure that their low voltage warning system is working. The checklist for the shut down procedure at the end of each flight in my EAB KIS TR-1 airplane includes turning the alternator OFF (via a switch in the field breaker line) while the engine is still running and ensuring that: 1) The flashing light for the low voltage warning system starts flashing. 2) The Garmin GNS 430W and the Garmin GTX 327 transponder keep working normally on battery power alone. Item 2 above is essential if I am to return to my home base inside the Washington DC SFRA. They would also be nice / essential to have on cross country if my alternator failed** and I wanted to communicate with ATC or a tower prior to making a landing before the battery ran out of amps. OC **PS: In just my small circle of acquaintance pilots I know of two instances (one a type certificated airplane, the other an EAB) where the alternator stopped working because of interrupted field current. One was a loose wire the other an inadvertent alternator shut down. Neither airplane was equipped with low voltage warning and the situation was only discovered after the battery ran down and things stopped working. =========== Time: 01:09:06 AM PST US From: John B <jbsoar@gmail.com <>> Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode Bob- Is there anything worng with using the field breaker as an alternator control switch? Why would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator? John B


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:40:44 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Art, Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry throug h are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite well e ven when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wingt ips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end. Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar to b e your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to the f irst connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than that I 'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground might b e problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible t o make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remembe r to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a MINIMUM of one foot. Sebastien > On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, > > Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? > =8B > strobe position lights.pdf > =8B > Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) > > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:40:46 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Art, Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry throug h are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite well e ven when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wingt ips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end. Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar to b e your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to the f irst connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than that I 'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground might b e problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible t o make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remembe r to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a MINIMUM of one foot. Sebastien > On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, > > Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? > =8B > strobe position lights.pdf > =8B > Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) > > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:48:34 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Also is the red box in your diagram a connector or the nav strobe unit itsel f? If the latter you will need to add a connector at the tip end of the spar so that you can disconnect the light for wing tip removal. Make sure you ha ve enough slack in the wires so that the connectors hang out a foot from bot h the spar and the wing tip each. Sebastien > On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, > > Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? > =8B > strobe position lights.pdf > =8B > Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) > > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel


    Message 11


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    Time: 03:06:28 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    At 03:38 PM 7/31/2016, you wrote: >Art, > >Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and >carry through are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry >through quite well even when coated with oil. Obviously anything >mounted in the fiberglass wingtips will need a ground wire connected >to the spar at the tip end. > >Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the >spar to be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from >the panel to the first connector as the installation instructions >suggest. Further than that I'm not sure it would add anything and >connecting the shield to ground might be problematic. You need to >keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible to make wing >removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remember to >make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a >MINIMUM of one foot. That's what I would do if it were my airplane . . . Bob . . .


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:13:28 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Alternator failure mode
    At 02:24 PM 7/31/2016, you wrote: >Gents, > >I have been using this product (SparkBright Eclipse) to monitor the >battery voltage on my Europa for a couple years now and it seems to >work great. I have a second one which will be installed on the >Little Toot Sport Biplane project which is almost complete. > ><http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php>http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php I ordered one in to play with about ten years ago . . . maybe more. It performs electrically as advertised but a bit dim for sunlight visability. They may have boosted the light output of their LED choices. I'll suggest good critical review. The other factor to ponder considers utility. You generally don't benefit from a green light saying everything is okay 99.99% of the time. If your alternator is fitted with ov protection, you'd never see a red light since the alternator is brought to heel in tens of milliseconds . . . whereupon the bus volts drop to battery voltage. This leaves ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW voltage as the only really useful function . . . and you do want to make sure you're going to see it under all anticipated lighting conditions. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:12:21 PM PST US
    From: Art Zemon <art@zemon.name>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Sebastien & Bob, Thank you for your suggestions. I shielded the strobe wire between the switch and the spar tube. I left the wires running inside the spar tube unshielded. I don't know what the red box represents because all I have right now is the installation doc, no hardware. I added connectors at the wing tips to the drawing, just in case the red box is not a connector of some sort. And I will definitely be sure that I have nice long service loops for removing the wings and the wing tips. Here is the updated drawing. =8B strobe position lights.pdf <https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRkE/ view?usp=drive_web> =8B Cheers, -- Art Z. On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote: > Art, > > Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry > through are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through qui te > well even when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the > fiberglass wingtips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the > tip end. > > Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar > to be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to > the first connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further tha n > that I'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to grou nd > might be problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as > possible to make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as > possible. Remember to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the car ry > through a MINIMUM of one foot. > > Sebastien > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, > > Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? > =8B > strobe position lights.pdf > <https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRk E/view?usp=drive_web> > =8B > Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) > > -- Art Z. > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > > -- http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*


    Message 14


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    Time: 07:27:18 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Grounding Questions
    Looks great Art. Sebastien > On Jul 31, 2016, at 22:09, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: > > Sebastien & Bob, > > Thank you for your suggestions. I shielded the strobe wire between the swi tch and the spar tube. I left the wires running inside the spar tube unshiel ded. > > I don't know what the red box represents because all I have right now is t he installation doc, no hardware. I added connectors at the wing tips to the drawing, just in case the red box is not a connector of some sort. And I wi ll definitely be sure that I have nice long service loops for removing the w ings and the wing tips. > > Here is the updated drawing. =8B > strobe position lights.pdf > =8B > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > >> On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote: >> Art, >> >> Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry thr ough are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite wel l even when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wi ngtips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end. >> >> Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar t o be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to t he first connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than th at I'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground mi ght be problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as poss ible to make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. R emember to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a M INIMUM of one foot. >> >> Sebastien >> >>> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote: >>> >>> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie, >>> >>> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you? >>> =8B >>> strobe position lights.pdf >>> =8B >>> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-) >>> >>> -- Art Z. >>> >>> -- >>> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >>> >>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > > > > -- > http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel




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