Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:48 AM - Alternator failure mode (Owen Baker)
2. 06:20 AM - Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
3. 07:28 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Kelly McMullen)
4. 09:30 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
5. 10:17 AM - Re: Grounding Questions (Charlie England)
6. 12:13 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
7. 12:26 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (Robert Borger)
8. 01:40 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
9. 01:40 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
10. 01:48 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
11. 03:06 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 03:13 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 07:12 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Art Zemon)
14. 07:27 PM - Re: Grounding Questions (Sebastien)
Message 1
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Subject: | Alternator failure mode |
7/31/2016
Hello John B, You wrote: =9CWhy would anyone ever want to shut off
the alternator?=9D
In order to ensure that their low voltage warning system is working.
The checklist for the shut down procedure at the end of each flight in
my EAB KIS TR-1
airplane includes turning the alternator OFF (via a switch in the field
breaker line) while the engine
is still running and ensuring that:
1) The flashing light for the low voltage warning system starts
flashing.
2) The Garmin GNS 430W and the Garmin GTX 327 transponder keep working
normally on battery
power alone.
Item 2 above is essential if I am to return to my home base inside the
Washington DC SFRA.
They would also be nice / essential to have on cross country if my
alternator failed** and I wanted
to communicate with ATC or a tower prior to making a landing before the
battery
ran out of amps.
OC
**PS: In just my small circle of acquaintance pilots I know of two
instances (one a type certificated airplane, the other an EAB) where the
alternator
stopped working because of interrupted field current. One was a loose
wire the other an inadvertent alternator shut down. Neither airplane
was equipped with low voltage warning and the situation was only
discovered after the battery ran down and things stopped working.
===========
Time: 01:09:06 AM PST US
From: John B <jbsoar@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode
Bob-
Is there anything worng with using the field breaker as an alternator
control switch? Why would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator?
John B
Message 2
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Subject: | Grounding Questions |
Folks,
I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane and
wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, metal,
high wing. The salient points are:
1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which
means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the
instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and
2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to get
from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel.
I see several choices:
I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the
wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the wing. I
don't like this idea, even though it would *probably* be fine.
I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector to
the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from the left
position/strobe light, a second wire from the right position/strobe light,
etc.
I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the grounds
for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the grounds for the
fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for the landing lights
in both wings.
I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single wire
to the grounding block behind the instrument panel.
What thoughts do you have? Thanks.
-- Art Z.
http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
I think you are overly obsessing the issue. All of your wing electrics
are resistive loads, not radio frequency gizmos. You might gain a
smidgeon of accuracy in the fuel sender with a separate ground, but
separate grounds for all the rest won't make a hoot of difference. Make
a ground connection from wing root to fuselage near wing root. Ground
each item locally in the wing. No need to run separate wire from wing
root to your central ground point. You could run a separate ground for
the fuel sender to central ground, but not likely to make a noticeable
difference. TC aircraft use local grounds for all that stuff.
You don't say if you plan traditional nav and strobe lights or LEDs. I
recommend the latter for lower current draw and no need for a high
voltage strobe power supply, and mostly eliminates the one RFI noise
source in wings. LEDs will be similar in cost for quality units, so
money isn't much of a factor.
On 7/31/2016 6:18 AM, Art Zemon wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane
> and wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C,
> metal, high wing. The salient points are:
>
> 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which
> means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the
> instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and
> 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to
> get from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel.
>
> I see several choices:
>
> I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the
> wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the
> wing. I don't like this idea, even though it would /probably/ be fine.
>
> I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector
> to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from
> the left position/strobe light, a second wire from the right
> position/strobe light, etc.
>
> I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the
> grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the
> grounds for the fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for
> the landing lights in both wings.
>
> I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single
> wire to the grounding block behind the instrument panel.
>
> What thoughts do you have? Thanks.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Hi Art. Everything on my BD-4 wingtips is grounded to the wing spar with no d
ifficulties. I think your spar is a much better ground than any wire could b
e as far as lights and pitot heat. You're adding weight and complexity to no
purpose. Drill a hole in the end of each spar and put a nutplate or rivet n
ut in.
I would definitely run wires to your single point ground for the fuel gauges
. My wing is fibreglass and the fuel gauges were grounded to the fuse and a l
ittle corrosion on the ring terminal was enough to throw them off significan
tly.
Also leave plenty of extra wire in the wings for when you take them off. It'
s awful having to remove a wing to plug a wire back in that you pulled loose
removing a wingtip. I would leave an extra 2-3' sticking out of the wing ti
p and an extra 3' at the wing root. Remember as you pull the wings off the d
istance gets almost 2 feet longer before the wing comes off and you can unpl
ug the wire.
Sebastien
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 09:18, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane and w
ondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C, metal, high w
ing. The salient points are:
>
> 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual, which mea
ns I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of the instrument p
anel to a connector at the wing root, and
> 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel to ge
t from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel.
>
> I see several choices:
>
> I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the the wi
ng spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install the wing. I do
n't like this idea, even though it would probably be fine.
>
> I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root connector to t
he grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a wire from the left p
osition/strobe light, a second wire from the right position/strobe light, et
c.
>
> I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the grounds
for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the grounds for the f
uel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds for the landing lights in
both wings.
>
> I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single wire t
o the grounding block behind the instrument panel.
>
> What thoughts do you have? Thanks.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
I'd agree, but I'd avoid rivnuts like the plague they are. I've never
met a rivnut that didn't spin. If you use 'em, at some point you'll be
fighting to get the screw out so you can drill them out to replace with
plate nuts.
On 7/31/2016 11:28 AM, Sebastien wrote:
> Hi Art. Everything on my BD-4 wingtips is grounded to the wing spar
> with no difficulties. I think your spar is a much better ground than
> any wire could be as far as lights and pitot heat. You're adding
> weight and complexity to no purpose. Drill a hole in the end of each
> spar and put a nutplate or rivet nut in.
>
> I would definitely run wires to your single point ground for the fuel
> gauges. My wing is fibreglass and the fuel gauges were grounded to the
> fuse and a little corrosion on the ring terminal was enough to throw
> them off significantly.
>
> Also leave plenty of extra wire in the wings for when you take them
> off. It's awful having to remove a wing to plug a wire back in that
> you pulled loose removing a wingtip. I would leave an extra 2-3'
> sticking out of the wing tip and an extra 3' at the wing root.
> Remember as you pull the wings off the distance gets almost 2 feet
> longer before the wing comes off and you can unplug the wire.
>
> Sebastien
>
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 09:18, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name
> <mailto:art@zemon.name>> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I am planning the wiring for stuff that goes in the wings of my plane
>> and wondering about how to properly ground it. The plane is a BD-4C,
>> metal, high wing. The salient points are:
>>
>> 1) The wings are removable and will come off during each annual,
>> which means I will build a wiring harness that goes from the back of
>> the instrument panel to a connector at the wing root, and
>> 2) I need to run the wires through a conduit inside 2x2 inch channel
>> to get from the top of the cabin to behind the instrument panel.
>>
>> I see several choices:
>>
>> I could ground everything to the airframe in the wing and trust the
>> the wing spar makes an electrically sound connection when I install
>> the wing. I don't like this idea, even though it would /probably/ be
>> fine.
>>
>> I could run a ground wire for each device from the wing root
>> connector to the grounding block behind the instrument panel. E.g., a
>> wire from the left position/strobe light, a second wire from the
>> right position/strobe light, etc.
>>
>> I could combine the grounds for "like devices." E.g., combine the
>> grounds for the position/strobe lights in both wings, combine the
>> grounds for the fuel senders in both wings, and combine the grounds
>> for the landing lights in both wings.
>>
>> I could combine all of the grounds at the wing root and run a single
>> wire to the grounding block behind the instrument panel.
>>
>> What thoughts do you have? Thanks.
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
=8B
strobe position lights.pdf
<https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRkE/
view?usp=drive_web>
=8B
Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
-- Art Z.
--
http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/>
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure mode |
Gents,
I have been using this product (SparkBright Eclipse) to monitor the
battery voltage on my Europa for a couple years now and it seems to work
great. I have a second one which will be installed on the Little Toot
Sport Biplane project which is almost complete.
http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php
Simple Red/Yellow/Green indication. If you see RED, battery is
discharging. If you see YELLOW, battery is charged but the alternator
isn=99t providing sufficient voltage to maintain. If you see
GREEN, battery is charged and alternator is providing sufficient voltage
to maintain. If you see alternating RED/GREEN you have an over-voltage
situation with the alternator/regulator.
It=99s a simple two wire install (red & black) and only requires a
small hole in the panel for mounting.
I have no interest in the company other than as a satisfied user.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Owen Baker <bakerocb@cox.net> wrote:
7/31/2016
Hello John B, You wrote: =9CWhy would anyone ever want to shut off
the alternator?=9D
In order to ensure that their low voltage warning system is working.
The checklist for the shut down procedure at the end of each flight in
my EAB KIS TR-1
airplane includes turning the alternator OFF (via a switch in the field
breaker line) while the engine
is still running and ensuring that:
1) The flashing light for the low voltage warning system starts
flashing.
2) The Garmin GNS 430W and the Garmin GTX 327 transponder keep working
normally on battery
power alone.
Item 2 above is essential if I am to return to my home base inside the
Washington DC SFRA.
They would also be nice / essential to have on cross country if my
alternator failed** and I wanted
to communicate with ATC or a tower prior to making a landing before the
battery
ran out of amps.
OC
**PS: In just my small circle of acquaintance pilots I know of two
instances (one a type certificated airplane, the other an EAB) where the
alternator
stopped working because of interrupted field current. One was a loose
wire the other an inadvertent alternator shut down. Neither airplane
was equipped with low voltage warning and the situation was only
discovered after the battery ran down and things stopped working.
===========
Time: 01:09:06 AM PST US
From: John B <jbsoar@gmail.com <>>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode
Bob-
Is there anything worng with using the field breaker as an alternator
control switch? Why would anyone ever want to shut off the alternator?
John B
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Art,
Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry throug
h are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite well e
ven when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wingt
ips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end.
Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar to b
e your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to the f
irst connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than that I
'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground might b
e problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible t
o make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remembe
r to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a MINIMUM
of one foot.
Sebastien
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
> =8B
> strobe position lights.pdf
> =8B
> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Art,
Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry throug
h are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite well e
ven when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wingt
ips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end.
Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar to b
e your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to the f
irst connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than that I
'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground might b
e problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible t
o make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remembe
r to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a MINIMUM
of one foot.
Sebastien
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
> =8B
> strobe position lights.pdf
> =8B
> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Also is the red box in your diagram a connector or the nav strobe unit itsel
f? If the latter you will need to add a connector at the tip end of the spar
so that you can disconnect the light for wing tip removal. Make sure you ha
ve enough slack in the wires so that the connectors hang out a foot from bot
h the spar and the wing tip each.
Sebastien
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
> =8B
> strobe position lights.pdf
> =8B
> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
At 03:38 PM 7/31/2016, you wrote:
>Art,
>
>Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and
>carry through are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry
>through quite well even when coated with oil. Obviously anything
>mounted in the fiberglass wingtips will need a ground wire connected
>to the spar at the tip end.
>
>Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the
>spar to be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from
>the panel to the first connector as the installation instructions
>suggest. Further than that I'm not sure it would add anything and
>connecting the shield to ground might be problematic. You need to
>keep the in-spar connector as simple as possible to make wing
>removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. Remember to
>make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a
>MINIMUM of one foot.
That's what I would do if it were my airplane . . .
Bob . . .
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Alternator failure mode |
At 02:24 PM 7/31/2016, you wrote:
>Gents,
>
>I have been using this product (SparkBright Eclipse) to monitor the
>battery voltage on my Europa for a couple years now and it seems to
>work great. I have a second one which will be installed on the
>Little Toot Sport Biplane project which is almost complete.
>
><http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php>http://www.sparkbright.co.uk/battery-voltage-monitors.php
I ordered one in to play with about ten years ago . . .
maybe more. It performs electrically as advertised
but a bit dim for sunlight visability. They may have
boosted the light output of their LED choices. I'll
suggest good critical review.
The other factor to ponder considers utility. You
generally don't benefit from a green light saying
everything is okay 99.99% of the time. If your
alternator is fitted with ov protection, you'd
never see a red light since the alternator is
brought to heel in tens of milliseconds . . .
whereupon the bus volts drop to battery voltage.
This leaves ACTIVE NOTIFICATION OF LOW voltage as
the only really useful function . . . and you
do want to make sure you're going to see it
under all anticipated lighting conditions.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Sebastien & Bob,
Thank you for your suggestions. I shielded the strobe wire between the
switch and the spar tube. I left the wires running inside the spar tube
unshielded.
I don't know what the red box represents because all I have right now is
the installation doc, no hardware. I added connectors at the wing tips to
the drawing, just in case the red box is not a connector of some sort. And
I will definitely be sure that I have nice long service loops for removing
the wings and the wing tips.
Here is the updated drawing. =8B
strobe position lights.pdf
<https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRkE/
view?usp=drive_web>
=8B
Cheers,
-- Art Z.
On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> Art,
>
> Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry
> through are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through qui
te
> well even when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the
> fiberglass wingtips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the
> tip end.
>
> Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar
> to be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel
to
> the first connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further tha
n
> that I'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to grou
nd
> might be problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as
> possible to make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as
> possible. Remember to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the car
ry
> through a MINIMUM of one foot.
>
> Sebastien
>
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
>
> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
> =8B
> strobe position lights.pdf
> <https://drive.google.com/a/zemon.name/file/d/0BzOP2gb9_3RQSDZrNWw1bHdvRk
E/view?usp=drive_web>
> =8B
> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/>
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
>
--
http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <http://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/>
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Grounding Questions |
Looks great Art.
Sebastien
> On Jul 31, 2016, at 22:09, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Sebastien & Bob,
>
> Thank you for your suggestions. I shielded the strobe wire between the swi
tch and the spar tube. I left the wires running inside the spar tube unshiel
ded.
>
> I don't know what the red box represents because all I have right now is t
he installation doc, no hardware. I added connectors at the wing tips to the
drawing, just in case the red box is not a connector of some sort. And I wi
ll definitely be sure that I have nice long service loops for removing the w
ings and the wing tips.
>
> Here is the updated drawing. =8B
> strobe position lights.pdf
> =8B
> Cheers,
> -- Art Z.
>
>
>> On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Art,
>>
>> Looks good except all your Local Grounds from the wing spar and carry thr
ough are unnecessary. The spar grounds itself to the carry through quite wel
l even when coated with oil. Obviously anything mounted in the fiberglass wi
ngtips will need a ground wire connected to the spar at the tip end.
>>
>> Are you planning on using shielded wire in the spar or count on the spar t
o be your shielding? You might want to use shielded wire from the panel to t
he first connector as the installation instructions suggest. Further than th
at I'm not sure it would add anything and connecting the shield to ground mi
ght be problematic. You need to keep the in-spar connector as simple as poss
ible to make wing removal and installation as simple and safe as possible. R
emember to make sure the wire from the panel hangs out the carry through a M
INIMUM of one foot.
>>
>> Sebastien
>>
>>> On Jul 31, 2016, at 15:11, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>>
>>> Kelly & Sebastien & Charlie,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your suggestions. How does this wiring plan look to you?
>>> =8B
>>> strobe position lights.pdf
>>> =8B
>>> Be nice, please. It's my first attempt at a wiring diagram. :-)
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
>
>
> --
> http://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
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