---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 08/10/16: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Ed) 2. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Ed) 3. 10:35 AM - Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Eric M. Jones) 4. 11:10 AM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Ed) 5. 11:46 AM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Henador Titzoff) 6. 07:39 PM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Wig Wag difficulties (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties From: Ed Howdy Lyle, It is indeed a bandaid, but perhaps not a complete loss. 75 ohms at 12.5v is less than 2/10 of an amp. I can afford that. The problem that I have with it is it didn't work to make the flasher cycle. I think I'll try paralleling 2 of them. That will cost me about a third of an amp. Little enough if it makes the circuit work right. I'll still be at less than half of the 8 amps that 100w halogens would pull. Got a part number for the correct LED flasher? The one's I've been looking at need switched power to them or they will constantly flash. Not impossible to manage, but it means a revision of the wiring and switching at best and an additional switch at worst. Since I've already silk screened my panel, I'd like to avoid that. Ed On 8/9/2016 9:15 PM, Lyle Peterson wrote: > > > There are flashers specifically for LED lights that will operate with > the light (no pun intended) load of LEDs. They are used on cars and > motorcycles, particularly when incandescent lamps are replaced with LEDs. > > One of the reasons for installing LEDs is that they draw much less > current. Another is that the run very cool. Adding a resistor across > them defeats the purposes and the advantage is gone. The resistor has > to sink the current that an incandescent bulb would draw. This creates > heat just as it does when the incandescent bulb is lit. > > I consider the resistor to be a jury rigged cure that is best dealt with > by using the correct components. > > Lyle > > > On 8/9/2016 10:53 PM, user9253 wrote: >> >> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:23 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties From: Ed Thanks, Joe. Page 5.0 is the drawing I emulated, along with the resistors shown on the last page. I'm wired exactly as drawn and it's not working as it should. I'm thinking about trying parallel resistors to have 37.5 ohms across the lights. Maybe that will do it. Ed On 8/9/2016 8:53 PM, user9253 wrote: > > http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/WigWag/WigWag.pdf > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459415#459415 > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties From: "Eric M. Jones" I still sell my wig wags by the boatload. They require no load resistor and work on everything (almost). Not the cheapest, but they are guaranteed forever if I can manage it. -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459430#459430 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:10:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties From: Ed To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run slightly cooler. Ed ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:46:23 AM PST US From: Henador Titzoff Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties Look at the bright side, Ed.=C2- As your alternator fails and your batter y voltage goes down, your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor impleme ntation will suck in less current to dissipate less vital battery energy. =C2- There is a reason for LED lighting other than reliability - they use less power (energy).=C2- Why not do the right thing and replace that wig wagger with something that works with less current flowing through it, e.g . Eric Jones' wig wagger?=C2- It sounds like a brighter idea than power d issipating resistors giving off invisible infrared photons.=C2- I don't m ean to speak for Eric, but maybe he can ship you a unit to test drive.=C2 - If it works, great; if it doesn't, you ship it back.=C2-Henador Titzo ff From: Ed To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2016 2:09 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of an amp and run slightly cooler. Ed - S - WIKI - - =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:12 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties >Adding a resistor across them defeats the >purposes and the advantage is gone. . . . by how much? > your Gube Roldberg (I'm dyslexic) two resistor > implementation will suck in less current . . Incandescent lamps were king When that flasher was first applied to OBAM aircraft, further, the lowest cost solution for fabricating a useful wig-wag installation was realized by incorporating an automotive, 3-terminal flasher. Given that three terminals are quickly used up with two lamp outputs and one power input. For the internals of this flasher to function, it needed to seek a power ground through the OFF side lamp. This philosophy worked well in cars for decades before flying a few decades more in airplanes. When builders began the transition to LED populated fixtures, it seems that the legacy flasher technology was unable to secure a operable ground through the newer lamp technology. The first design goal was to offer a means by which existing incandescent installations could be converted to LED with a minimum of cost . . . and power 'wasted'. Experiments conducted in our shop and on some airplanes showed that the added resistors would allow a quick and easy transition to LED. 75 ohms paralleled with the fixtures I had access to appeared to be a good compromise while adding only 0.2 amps to system loads in the wig-wag mode. Yes, they run too hot to touch . . . so do battery contactors . . . There were, and stall are, plans for replacing the automotive flasher . . . but if the flasher is not performing as needed in a new installation, there has to be an explanation . . . which would be interesting to know. Had anyone offered an "LED compatible" wig-wag flasher in a neat little box with the resistors built in, few if any consumers would be aware of them . . . and probably not inclined to speak of them in pejoratives. To be sure, there are more efficient alternatives in new hardware . . . at a price in dollars (and perhaps labor to make a change-out). The notion that the resistors represent a significant 'waste' during battery only operations begs the question as to what the total endurance loads look like . . . I suggest that if one even chooses to run wig-wag in a battery only endurance mode . . . the resistor losses are insignificant. I'd like to think this forum is the place where designs are explored and decisions made on an analysis of measurements, outcome of experiment and a quest for achieving design goals . . . throwing sand and spit-balls is not helpful. Let's be good shepherd of electrons and see if we can figure out why this one system is not working as expected when hundreds of similar systems have been flying for years. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Wig Wag difficulties At 01:09 PM 8/10/2016, you wrote: > >To update where I'm at - I paralleled two 75 ohm, 5w resistors on >each light and got solid flashing for the 20 minutes that I tested >it. The resistors are too hot to grip between fingers but not too >hot to touch lightly. I calc about .33A loss and about 4.16 watts. I >might try some 50 ohm, 10w resistors which should save me a tenth of >an amp and run slightly cooler. A power resistor running at rated dissipation will sizzle-spit . . . over 100C surface temperature. They just do that. Your experiment suggests that the flasher in hand is a bit more demanding of a low- as-practical resistance to ground on the OFF lamp. I've had a couple builders use resistors much like this http://tinyurl.com/jroz29g while rated at many more watts . . . if not mounted to a heat sinking surface, it too would be too hot to touch. The handy thing about these guys is that they're easy to mount on metal surface that sharply reduces their operating surface temperature. And . . . of course . . . you can change out the flasher for one more specific to the application. I've opened several versions of those devices. One particular model was easily converted to a 4-wire device by cutting a trace on the board and soldering on a ground wire to bring out of the case. Then the need for 'grounding resistors' goes away. But if the externally added resistors is not a source of heartburn, then I suspect the devices cited above will do the job . . . and the price is right. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.