Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:39 AM - Voltage drop (Michael Lazarowicz)
2. 08:47 AM - Re: Voltage drop (user9253)
3. 09:11 AM - Re: Voltage drop (David Saylor)
4. 10:38 AM - Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B (Frederic Stucklen)
5. 01:55 PM - Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B (Kelly McMullen)
6. 04:16 PM - Re: Voltage drop (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 04:33 PM - Re: Voltage drop (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 05:03 PM - Re: Voltage drop (Kelly McMullen)
9. 05:09 PM - Re: Voltage drop (Trent Heidtke)
10. 06:59 PM - Re: Voltage drop (Michael Lazarowicz)
Message 1
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I was doing some checks on my RV8 electrical system that I just finished a
few weeks ago. This is a brand new plane under construction. Before I fired
up any of the Garmin G3x stuff, I tested the usual systems , starter , fuel
pump lights etc. all seemed to work fine. I fired up the G3x and it also
come on line with no problems.
Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. When the
starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as the starter
stopped they came back on. It appears that the current draw from the
starter took the voltage available to the other Items so low they shut down
( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 volts or so). I have a new
odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. Here are my questions.
1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal?
2. Could this be a battery issue?
3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ?
Thanks
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
Everything that you described sounds normal to me. Check out Bob's Z-10/8 electrical
drawing with a brownout battery.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459684#459684
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.
Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does the same thing.
You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're describing.
I use one from TCW that works great.
--Dave
On Saturday, August 20, 2016, Michael Lazarowicz <tllaz330@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was doing some checks on my RV8 electrical system that I just finished a
> few weeks ago. This is a brand new plane under construction. Before I fired
> up any of the Garmin G3x stuff, I tested the usual systems , starter , fuel
> pump lights etc. all seemed to work fine. I fired up the G3x and it also
> come on line with no problems.
>
> Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again. When the
> starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as the starter
> stopped they came back on. It appears that the current draw from the
> starter took the voltage available to the other Items so low they shut down
> ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11 volts or so). I have a new
> odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged. Here are my questions.
>
> 1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal?
>
> 2. Could this be a battery issue?
>
> 3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ?
>
> Thanks
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator |
and AC 20-165B
Hi,
I put one into my RV-7A on the ADS600-EXP unit because the early software
would fail if the
GPS signal was lost (after doing a roll) and was never re-acquired.. The
warning light would and
Would come ON and stay ON, indicating an ADS-B function failure. More recent
versions of the
Software appear to have solved that issue.
Fred Stucklen
RV-7A N924RV 1298 Hrs.
I didn't put them in my 6A....
I couldn't find anything the stated 'required'...plenty that said
'optional'.
My .02
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
eschlanser
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:16 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B
--> <eschlanser@yahoo.com>
I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already
flying
ABAM plane.
The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per AC
20-165B
para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a UAT
device,
the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are listed
as
ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure.
Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it refers to
initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC).
The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my call
to
them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for
status
failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the
installation?
Eric Schlanser
South Haven, MI
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165BADSB annunciator |
and AC 20-165B
Keep in mind that the FAA has not issued any guidance(that I am aware
of) at all for certification of ADS-B equipment installed in
experimental aircraft. All of the guidance assumes a certified aircraft.
So you take your best effort with regards to compliance and recognize
something may need to change down the road.
On 8/20/2016 10:15 AM, Frederic Stucklen wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> I put one into my RV-7A on the ADS600-EXP unit because the early
> software would fail if the
>
> GPS signal was lost (after doing a roll) and was never re-acquired.
> The warning light would and
>
> Would come ON and stay ON, indicating an ADS-B function failure. More
> recent versions of the
>
> Software appear to have solved that issue
>
>
> Fred Stucklen
>
> RV-7A N924RV 1298 Hrs.
>
>
> *I didn't put them in my 6A....*
>
> * *
>
> * I couldn't find anything the stated 'required'...plenty that said*
>
> * 'optional'.*
>
> * *
>
> * My .02*
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> * -----Original Message-----*
>
> * From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com>*
>
> * [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]
> <mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com]> On Behalf Of*
>
> * eschlanser*
>
> * Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 5:16 PM*
>
> * Subject: AeroElectric-List: ADSB annunciator and AC 20-165B*
>
> * *
>
> * --> <eschlanser@yahoo.com <mailto:eschlanser@yahoo.com>>*
>
> * *
>
> * I'm finishing the installation of a Navworx ADS600B in my already
> flying*
>
> * ABAM plane.*
>
> * *
>
> * The installation is finished except for an ADSB annunciator. Per
> AC 20-165B*
>
> * para 3.7.2.1, "For legacy mode C installations that are adding a
> UAT device,*
>
> * the following two failure annunciations are optional" and are
> listed as*
>
> * ADS-B Device Failure and Function Failure. *
>
> * *
>
> * Of course, there is more verbiage that is confusing me as it
> refers to*
>
> * initial airworthiness certification (STC or TC).*
>
> * *
>
> * The good folks at Navworx seem to have left for the weekend so my
> call to*
>
> * them went unanswered. Does anyone here know if an annunciator for
> status*
>
> * failures of the Navworx ADS600B are a required part of the
> installation? *
>
> * *
>
> * Eric Schlanser*
>
> * South Haven, MI*
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
>
>Yesterday I had everything on line and tested the starter again.
>When the starter turned all my other electronics died. As soon as
>the starter stopped they came back on. It appears that the current
>draw from the starter took the voltage available to the other Items
>so low they shut down ( most of the G3X stuff shuts down below 11
>volts or so). I have a new odyssey battery 680 and it appears to be charged.
What engine, alternator and battery combination?
>Here are my questions.
Your battery is either (1) not charged -OR- (2) too small -OR-
Both.
>1. Battery solenoid gets warm with the battery master on. Is this normal?
Yes
>2. Could this be a battery issue?
Probably . . .
>3. What test can I perform on the solenoid, battery etc. ?
Put a computer controlled charger on the battery
and leave it connected until the charger says, "it's
charged.
Fire up the engine and report back on
your observations . . . in particular, what
is the bus voltage with the engine running,
alternator ON, normal running loads ON.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C2
>
>Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C2 the same thing.=C2
>
>You'll need some kind of back-up battery to
>prevent what you're describing. I use one from TCW that works great.
Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any
electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with
a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost
certainly will reboot every time you start the engine.
I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify
these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1)
study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during
engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their
product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that
has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane.
To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn
on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start.
Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on
the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger
on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected.
But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list
has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did
not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh
and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things.
Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit
with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one
kind or another.
Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons
we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace
legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified
product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully
from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test
requirements document.
Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted
to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen
needs to be as available and responsive as their steam
gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine
start.
This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem.
If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy
for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest
to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply
brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that
COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs.
The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity
to a system striving to honor a operating practice that
has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated
risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for
the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty?
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
The only situation I have experienced where oil pressure response time
was important is for a cold start, as in below freezing, where the
amount of pre-heat is questionable as to whether it was applied long
enough. As in if pressure doesn't come up in 30 seconds, one should shut
down and apply heat longer to the engine compartment. Seems like some
electrowhizzy engine monitors take 30 seconds to boot. On the other
hand, most of them respond well to a small backup battery that keeps
input voltage high enough to prevent a reboot.
On 8/20/2016 4:06 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn
> on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start.
> Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on
> the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger
> on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected.
>
> Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons
> we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace
> legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified
> product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully
> from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test
> requirements document.
> The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity
> to a system striving to honor a operating practice that
> has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated
> risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for
> the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty?
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
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Fairly common occurrence with the new electronic panels.
Did a fair amount of research on this before deciding to feed at least
one
glass panel with an alternate battery so that in addition to not being
affected by startup (having immediate engine instrumentation awareness
when
I do), tasks like doing flight plans can be done with the engine off.
Just a thought
Anyway, Bob has a few 2 battery diagrams in his book that were extremely
helpful when I did my panel/avionics/engine monitoring system.
Trent
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2016 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop
At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C2
Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C2 the same thing.=C2
You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're
describing.
I use one from TCW that works great.
Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any
electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with
a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost
certainly will reboot every time you start the engine.
I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify
these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1)
study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during
engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their
product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that
has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane.
To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn
on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start.
Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on
the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger
on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected.
But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list
has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did
not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh
and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things.
Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit
with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one
kind or another.
Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons
we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace
legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified
product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully
from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test
requirements document.
Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted
to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen
needs to be as available and responsive as their steam
gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine
start.
This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem.
If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy
for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest
to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply
brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that
COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs.
The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity
to a system striving to honor a operating practice that
has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated
risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for
the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty?
Bob . . .
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Voltage drop |
Thanks Bob,
I do have a backup battery that is already wired in but have it
disconnected because there is no charging going on. The other problem is
that my odyssey battery (680) was more discharged than I thought . It is
on a charger now and it should rectify the problem. I was just concerned I
had a bad relay or miss-wired something. The good news is I checked all my
wiring Battery/ Alt. switch etc. They were all fine.
I do have a basic question that I cannot seem to answer in my mind. When
the Battery switch is on, there is power going to the alternator via the
main B lead. Since that lead is connected directly to the output side of
the battery relay dose it not draw a significant amount of current when the
Battery master is on and the alternator is not running. In you book it
show hat lead connected to coils that are stationary in the alternator,
then to ground believe. My non electrical mind just cannot figure that out
.
It's been 5 years since I retired, but I do remember some screen
interruption, all be it small and fast during engine starts on some if not
all the planes I flew to make a buck. Usually when changing from
APU power to the engine driven generators. I guess its just part of the
program
Thanks again for all your help
Mike
On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Trent Heidtke <theidtke@cox.net> wrote:
> Fairly common occurrence with the new electronic panels.
>
> Did a fair amount of research on this before deciding to feed at least on
e
> glass panel with an alternate battery so that in addition to not being
> affected by startup (having immediate engine instrumentation awareness wh
en
> I do), tasks like doing flight plans can be done with the engine off.
>
> Just a thought
>
> Anyway, Bob has a few 2 battery diagrams in his book that were extremely
> helpful when I did my panel/avionics/engine monitoring system.
>
> Trent
>
>
> *From:* owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Robert L.
> Nuckolls, III
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2016 4:07 PM
> *To:* aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: AeroElectric-List: Voltage drop
>
>
> At 11:10 AM 8/20/2016, you wrote:
>
> The contactor normally gets a little warm--no worries there.=C3=82
>
> Your battery is probably just fine. My 925 does=C3=82 the same thing.=C3
=82
>
> You'll need some kind of back-up battery to prevent what you're
> describing. I use one from TCW that works great.
>
>
> Oops . . . I stubbed my toe here. If you have any
> electro-whizzies that reboot when presented with
> a bus voltage below 11.0 volts . . . then they almost
> certainly will reboot every time you start the engine.
>
> I'm somewhat chagrined that folks who build and qualify
> these panel mounted super-computers don't either (1)
> study the real world of bus voltage behaviors during
> engine start and/or (2) advise the customer that their
> product WILL reboot during a start-up transient that
> has ALWAYS existed on EVERY airplane.
>
> To my mind, the simplest work-around is simply not to turn
> on . . . or depend on these gizmos until after engine start.
> Yeah, I know, our instructors taught us to concentrate on
> the oil pressure display after engine start with a finger
> on the mag switches lest the pressure not come up as expected.
>
> But I would be interested to hear if anyone on this list
> has ever experienced an failure of oil circulation that did
> not manifest until right after start up. No doubt, Lindbergh
> and contemporaries had good reason to worry about such things.
> Those guys carried tool boxes around in the rear cockpit
> with an eye toward needing off field maintenance of one
> kind or another.
>
> Now we have a new suite of technology which, for reasons
> we'll never know, was NOT designed to replace
> legacy instrumentation. DO-160 requires a qualified
> product to (1) not be damaged by and (2) recover gracefully
> from bus voltage brownouts quantified in the test
> requirements document.
>
> Problem is, graceful recovery has not been interpreted
> to mean that the oil pressure display on the glass screen
> needs to be as available and responsive as their steam
> gage counterparts during the first few seconds after engine
> start.
>
> This leaves the system integrator (YOU) with a problem.
> If you're going to pay homage to the legacy philosophy
> for monitoring engine parameters that were of intense interest
> to Charles Lindbergh, then we have to ADD power supply
> brown-out buffers for these new electro-whizzies . . . that
> COULD have been designed to accommodate such brown-outs.
>
> The question becomes, are we adding cost, weight and complexity
> to a system striving to honor a operating practice that
> has been around since Lindbergh? What are the demonstrated
> risks for cranking up an engine 'blind' an waiting for
> the 'new' technology to wake up and report for duty?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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