Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:36 AM - Under Sized Wire (user9253)
2. 05:06 AM - Re: Under Sized Wire (racerjerry)
3. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Kelly McMullen)
4. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Rene)
5. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Charlie England)
6. 08:58 AM - Re: Under Sized Wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 09:06 AM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (A R Goldman)
8. 10:27 AM - Re: Connectors for Wing Roots (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 11:17 AM - Re: Connectors for Wing Roots (rayj)
10. 12:19 PM - Re: Connectors for Wing Roots (Charlie England)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Kelly McMullen)
12. 06:37 PM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 07:24 PM - Re: Re: Under Sized Wire (Rene)
14. 08:28 PM - Re: Connectors for Wing Roots (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
Message 1
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Subject: | Under Sized Wire |
On page 20 of the October 2016 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, the author wrote,
> "On one very nicely equipped RV-10, there was a 14 AWG wire being used as the
main feed from the alternator. It was not only improperly sized, but also a
potential fire hazard, as it was attached to a 60-amp alternator breaker. Clearly,
the wire would have melted before the breaker could have activated."
I agree that the wire was very undersized and would get very hot. But would it
actually melt?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459972#459972
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation.
Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot.
Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire.
Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong.
Available here:
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861
--------
Jerry King
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the
RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit.
it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter
relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus is
appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about
15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav lights,
landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery recharge
after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few minutes.
Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated
60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there.
On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote:
>
> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation.
Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot.
>
> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire.
>
> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong.
> Available here:
> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane
Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked
fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three
times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic.
Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat
soaked.
I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine.
My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real
help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max
load is nowhere near that....
Rene'
801-721-6080
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly
McMullen
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Under Sized Wire
--> <kellym@aviating.com>
Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the RV-10,
and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit.
it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter
relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus is
appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about
15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav lights, landing
lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery recharge after start
will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few minutes.
Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated
60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there.
On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote:
> --> <gnking2@verizon.net>
>
> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by
incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation
turns to snot.
>
> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire.
>
> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong.
> Available here:
> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/g
> o/document.information/documentID/99861
>
> --------
> Jerry King
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=459975#459975
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only
included advice to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big
a deal; there's just better stuff available now).
On the subject of using 14awg wire on a 60 amp alternator: The point is
not what is a typical draw; it's what the wire could potentially see.
The mantra is: size the wire for the load (which can be a bit more than
the *rated* capacity of the alternator, if the battery happened to be
really low, or there were lots of loads like landing lights, pitot heat,
etc), then fuse to protect the wire.
And none of us has answered the original question: Would the wire melt?
I don't know the answer for sure, but I do recall the rule of thumb for
fuseable links: make the link 4 wire sizes under the wire size you're
protecting. Ex: a #12 fuseable link wire protects a #8 wire. So, if a #8
is actually needed, #14 sounds like a quick blow fuse to me.
Charlie
On 8/28/2016 10:05 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
> <kellym@aviating.com>
>
> Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the
> RV-10, and certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit.
> it uses AWG 8 aircraft wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for
> starter relay to bus, so both battery feed and alternator feed to bus
> is appropriate. Master relay to starter relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs
> about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus strobes and nav
> lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps. Battery
> recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few
> minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to
> the rated 60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed
> could get there.
>
> On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote:
>> <gnking2@verizon.net>
>>
>> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by
>> incapacitation. Incapacitation happens long before the wire
>> insulation turns to snot.
>>
>> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire.
>>
>> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong.
>> Available here:
>> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861
>>
>>
>> --------
>> Jerry King
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
At 06:34 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote:
>
>On page 20 of the October 2016 issue of Kitplanes Magazine, the author wrote,
> > "On one very nicely equipped RV-10, there was a 14 AWG wire being
> used as the main feed from the alternator. It was not only
> improperly sized, but also a potential fire hazard, as it was
> attached to a 60-amp alternator breaker. Clearly, the wire would
> have melted before the breaker could have activated."
> I agree that the wire was very undersized and would get very
> hot. But would it actually melt?
Interesting question. You may recall the experiment
I conducted on a 20 AMP load through a 22AWG Tefzel
wire on the workbench some years back.
While the wire did run hot (and voltage drop was
no doubt higher than one would like) the jacket
temperature stabilized well below maximum ratings for
the insulation.
http://tinyurl.com/6qr72fr
I suspect a 14AWG hanging out in open
air would not be seriously challenged for
survival at 60A . . . but running the
wire into bundles of other wires would
have a profound influence on its
ability to reject heat.
Wire ratings are not so much a function
of the copper but of the insulation,
energy dissipated in the wire, temperature
rise due to dissipation of that energy
and ability to dump BTUs off into the
environment. Insulation . . . and materials
in contact with that insulation are the
potential victims at risk.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
Yes the wire will melt -or-not depending on its gauge and the amount of overload.
If my memory serves me correctly the fanles specify that a particular gauge will
handle a particular amperage and with these variables will increase its temperature
by so many degrees
The wire won't melt until the temperature gets to the melting point of copper or
whatever material it is made of. However the heat rise can cause all types
of hurt as it starts to degrade the insulation and you get the characteristic
electrical fire smell.
Bundled wires have a smaller rating as the heat produced can effect adjacent wires
So with a slight overload the wires will
Probably not melt
A larger gauge will of course maintain more heat and possibly become a greater
hazard
Now add the situation of an undersized wire and a large current flow and it will
indeed melt explosively-- or "fuse" which will Break the circuit. In fact thrall
is what a fuse or fusable link is. The difference is that they are usually
thermally protected and placed in a safe access able area
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Aug 28, 2016, at 10:37 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only included advice
to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big a deal; there's just
better stuff available now).
>
> On the subject of using 14awg wire on a 60 amp alternator: The point is not what
is a typical draw; it's what the wire could potentially see. The mantra is:
size the wire for the load (which can be a bit more than the *rated* capacity
of the alternator, if the battery happened to be really low, or there were lots
of loads like landing lights, pitot heat, etc), then fuse to protect the wire.
>
> And none of us has answered the original question: Would the wire melt? I don't
know the answer for sure, but I do recall the rule of thumb for fuseable links:
make the link 4 wire sizes under the wire size you're protecting. Ex: a #12
fuseable link wire protects a #8 wire. So, if a #8 is actually needed, #14
sounds like a quick blow fuse to me.
>
> Charlie
>
>> On 8/28/2016 10:05 AM, Kelly McMullen wrote:
>>
>> Not sure whether the builder ever saw Van's wiring diagram for the RV-10, and
certainly could not have purchased the optional wiring kit. it uses AWG 8 aircraft
wire for alternator to bus, and 8 AWG for starter relay to bus, so both
battery feed and alternator feed to bus is appropriate. Master relay to starter
relay is 2 AWG. My RV-10 runs about 15 amps with everything in the panel plus
strobes and nav lights, landing lights or pitot heat each add about 10 amps.
Battery recharge after start will up the flow to a bit over 40 amps for a few
minutes. Never have seen the current output of alternator get close to the rated
60 amps. I suppose a night start with landing lights needed could get there.
>>
>>> On 8/28/2016 5:05 AM, racerjerry wrote:
>>>
>>> The REAL problem is smoke in the cockpit, shortly followed by incapacitation.
Incapacitation happens long before the wire insulation turns to snot.
>>>
>>> Aircraft wire MUCH BETTER - avoid auto parts store PVC insulated wire.
>>>
>>> Use AC 43.13-1B as a guide and you will not go wrong.
>>> Available here:
>>> http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Jerry King
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Connectors for Wing Roots |
The Matronics server seems to no longer allow
embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment
along with a link to the picture
At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote:
>Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide
>mfg. and pt. no.
>Cheers! Stu.
Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal
we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line.
As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly
secure in tension . . . but no more so than a
knife splice.
http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3
I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here
somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been
excited about using them.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Connectors for Wing Roots |
The picture and the table of prices came through to me in email.
Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN
The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty,
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system.
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness,
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second.
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)
On 08/28/2016 12:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> The Matronics server seems to no longer allow
> embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment
> along with a link to the picture
>
> At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote:
>> Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide
>> mfg. and pt. no.
>> Cheers! Stu.
>
>
> Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal
> we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line.
> As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly
> secure in tension . . . but no more so than a
> knife splice.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3
>
> I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here
> somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been
> excited about using them.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Connectors for Wing Roots |
Bob,
Same here. However, when I tried to reply to that email (the reply
included the images from your original post), the Matronics server
rejected my reply. I then deleted the images from my reply, and the
server accepted it.
That's not the 1st time it's happened to me in replying to one of your
emails that had embedded images, so apparently it must alter something
in the image when it 'broadcasts' the original email, and the resultant
altered image isn't allowed to come back into the server.
Charlie
On 8/28/2016 1:13 PM, rayj wrote:
>
> The picture and the table of prices came through to me in email.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN
>
> The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness,
> honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in
> our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed,
> acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of
> success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the
> produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate
> (1902-1968)
>
> On 08/28/2016 12:17 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
>> The Matronics server seems to no longer allow
>> embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment
>> along with a link to the picture
>>
>> At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote:
>>> Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide
>>> mfg. and pt. no.
>>> Cheers! Stu.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal
>> we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line.
>> As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly
>> secure in tension . . . but no more so than a
>> knife splice.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3
>>
>> I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here
>> somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been
>> excited about using them.
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
I never saw the context with regard to PVC insulation. Not in the
Kitplanes article,nor other messages here. The subject line was and is
undersized wire. 14 AWG will carry 60 amps, especially if the run is
short, for some period of time, probably not a long time. Question is
whether the resistance generates more heat than the insulation can
dissipate, and melts the insulation. Likely the load IS quite variable
and steady state is no more than 80 percent of alternator capacity, more
likely 30 percent.
On 8/28/2016 8:37 AM, Charlie England wrote:
> <ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> Note that all context was lost in replying to an email that only
> included advice to avoid PVC insulated wire (which isn't really that big
> a deal; there's just better stuff available now).
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
At 10:28 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote:
>
>Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane
>Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked
>fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three
>times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic.
>Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat
>soaked.
>
>I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine.
>
>My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real
>help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max
>load is nowhere near that....
This kinda has the 'smell' of a faulty
breaker . . . what kind was it and do
you still have it?
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Under Sized Wire |
I might...I will check at the hanger the next time I am out there.
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 7:35 PM
Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Under Sized Wire
At 10:28 AM 8/28/2016, you wrote:
Just FYI, after losing my first two alternators I upgraded to the Plane
Power 70 amp. I left the 60amp breaker in the feed line. Worked
fine....until I was on a long trip to FLA and it tripped the breaker. Three
times......after take off and I think it was related to keying up the mic.
Also, it happened on the second leg of the day....hot day....engine heat
soaked.
I upgraded to a 70 AMP breaker.....all is fine.
My amp meter measures the flow to and from the main battery. So no real
help there in determining if I was really seeing 70 amps. My calculated max
load is nowhere near that....
This kinda has the 'smell' of a faulty
breaker . . . what kind was it and do
you still have it?
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Connectors for Wing Roots |
Hi Bob;
I think the "wristlock" is different than the "handshake," but seem to do the same
function. Thanks; I didn't know about wristlock either.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2016 10:17:59 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Connectors for Wing Roots
The Matronics server seems to no longer allow
embedded images. Here's a re-post of my comment
along with a link to the picture
At 11:30 AM 8/26/2016, you wrote:
Not familiar with "handshake connectors." Please amplify and provide mfg. and pt.
no.
Cheers! Stu.
Here is one modern incarnation of a T&B terminal
we used to use on the Cessna twin engine line.
As you can see, they're not cheap. They're certainly
secure in tension . . . but no more so than a
knife splice.
http://tinyurl.com/z5nx9h3
I've got some 40 year old wrist-locks around here
somewhere . . . shows you how often I've been
excited about using them.
Bob . . .
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