---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 09/08/16: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 12:28 PM - Isolating the Rotax alternator (spcialeffects) 3. 05:16 PM - Re: Isolating the Rotax alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 06:26 PM - Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 07:24 PM - Re: Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering (Jim Baker) 6. 07:31 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (David Saylor) 7. 07:52 PM - Re: Alternator failure mode (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 07:53 PM - Alternator failure mode (David Saylor) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Ducatti R/R deficiencies At 06:36 PM 9/7/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, >You have a few misconceptions about the Rotax regulator. All the >power components are screwed to the case, heatsink compound is used. >Rotax does not depend on the potting compound for heatsinking the >power components. In your photo, item 1 and 2 are SCRs >(MCR16N). Item 3 is a MOSFET to drive the fault lamp. The power >diodes (button case) are not shown, they would attach between the >plate on the left side and the two leads on the lower left side of >the PCB. This version is obsolete since late 2009. Interesting! Yes I missed that. This EMT studies thing has been a profound distraction. Dave had alluded to solder problems with the design as well. I'm a bit amazed by your findings . . . solder? Gee . . . soldering is as generic to electronics manufacturing as water is to fish. Yet the problems you've identified suggest that some of Ducatti's fish are flopping around on the bank. It's unfortunate that Silent-Hektik is not more widely distributed. I had one in my shop to evaluate (but didn't have access to the drive stand). Nonetheless, it exudes an air of quality. I've got a customer project to get off the bench this week and then I'll finish up my drive stand for pad-driven alternators. The machine work for the proof of concept package I posted a few days ago is done, I'll pick up the parts in Wichita today or tomorrow. This really isn't rocket science. It's like baking a cake . . . there are benefits to be secured by following time-tested recipes for success. We'll get some real numbers off of a R/R fabricated from robust parts intimately acquainted with capable heat-sinking . . . assembled with Kester 63/37 solder! Thanks for sharing your discoveries . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:28:02 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Isolating the Rotax alternator From: "spcialeffects" Hi all. I am building a europa with a rotax 914 engine. I am having quite a few electrical goodies and for this reason i am having/need 2 alternators which will run together, the rotax alternator will run an essential bus bar and the auxiliary b&c 420 alternator will run a load shed bus bar. Also the batteries (2) I'm having are the Li-5 Red Top Lithium Phosphate. As part of the LAA here in the UK the modification to use these batteries requires a means of isolating both batteries AND both alternators. I'm using Mr Knuckles mother of all electrical systems as my main platform. In the cockpit I'm using 2 cessna duel rocker switches, 1 for each system and a carlin toggle switch for the cross over feed. Now the auxiliary alternator i can isolate using the field wire but the rotax alternator doesn't have one. I spoke to my rotax engineer and he said i could interrupt one of the ac yellow wires, before it goes to the regulator, which by the way is a Schicke GR6, and put a 40amp relay in which i can switch on and off. I would just like to confirm with those of you much more capable than me, if this is correct. This side of my build, electrics, is by far the most challenging discipline i have tried to understand. Many thanks Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=460361#460361 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:16:42 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Isolating the Rotax alternator At 02:26 PM 9/8/2016, you wrote: > > >Hi all. I am building a europa with a rotax 914 engine. I am having >quite a few electrical goodies and for this reason i am having/need >2 alternators which will run together, the rotax alternator will run >an essential bus bar and the auxiliary b&c 420 alternator will run a >load shed bus bar. Also the batteries (2) I'm having are the Li-5 >Red Top Lithium Phosphate. As part of the LAA here in the UK the >modification to use these batteries requires a means of isolating >both batteries AND both alternators. > I'm using Mr Knuckles mother of all electrical systems as my > main platform. In the cockpit I'm using 2 cessna duel rocker > switches, 1 for each system and a carlin toggle switch for the > cross over feed. Now the auxiliary alternator i can isolate using > the field wire but the rotax alternator doesn't have one. I spoke > to my rotax engineer and he said i could interrupt one of the ac > yellow wires, before it goes to the regulator, which by the way is > a Schicke GR6, and put a 40amp relay in which i can switch on and > off. I would just like to confirm with those of you much more > capable than me, if this is correct. That would be my recommendation > This side of my build, electrics, is by far the most > challenging discipline i have tried to understand. > > >Many thanks Frank You're most welcome. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:35 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering I've tested a LOT of batteries of all stripe purchased off the Internet. Sadly, more than half of those claiming extra-ordinary capacity will not deliver even a large fraction of claimed capacity. Tenergy products tested in my lab are the exception. Both the 10Ah (D size) and 3800mAh (subC-size) cells delivered very close to nameplate ratings. I gave them 4 stars only because the jury is still out on service life . . . but I am optimistic. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:19 PM PST US From: Jim Baker Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Heads-up on eBay Ni-Mh offering SnVzdCBib3VnaHQgMzAgc3ViLUMgYmFzZWQgb24gc2ltaWxhciBjYXBhY2l0eSB0ZXN0cyBvbiBh IGNvdXBsZSBib3VnaHQgYSBtb250aCBhZ28uIExhemluZXNzIGRlZmluZWQuLi4ucmVoYWJiaW5n IGEgcGFpciBvZiBkcmlsbCBwYWNrcy4uLi4uCgpKaW0gQmFrZXIKNDA1IDQyNiA1Mzc3CgotLS0t LU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQpGcm9tOiAiUm9iZXJ0IEwuIE51Y2tvbGxzLCBJSUkiIDxu dWNrb2xscy5ib2JAYWVyb2VsZWN0cmljLmNvbT4KVG86IGFlcm9lbGVjdHJpYy1saXN0QG1hdHJv bmljcy5jb20KU2VudDogVGh1LCAwOCBTZXAgMjAxNiAyMToyNApTdWJqZWN0OiBBZXJvRWxlY3Ry aWMtTGlzdDogSGVhZHMtdXAgb24gZUJheSBOaS1NaCBvZmZlcmluZwoKLS0+IEFlcm9FbGVjdHJp Yy1MaXN0IG1lc3NhZ2UgcG9zdGVkIGJ5OiAiUm9iZXJ0IEwuIE51Y2tvbGxzLCBJSUkiIDxudWNr b2xscy5ib2JAYWVyb2VsZWN0cmljLmNvbT4KCgoKSSd2ZSB0ZXN0ZWQgYSBMT1Qgb2YgYmF0dGVy aWVzIG9mIGFsbCBzdHJpcGUgcHVyY2hhc2VkIG9mZiB0aGUgCkludGVybmV0LiBTYWRseSwgbW9y ZSB0aGFuIGhhbGYgb2YgdGhvc2UgY2xhaW1pbmcgZXh0cmEtb3JkaW5hcnkgCmNhcGFjaXR5IHdp bGwgbm90IGRlbGl2ZXIgZXZlbiBhIGxhcmdlIGZyYWN0aW9uIG9mIGNsYWltZWQgY2FwYWNpdHku IApUZW5lcmd5IHByb2R1Y3RzIHRlc3RlZCBpbiBteSBsYWIgYXJlIHRoZSBleGNlcHRpb24uIEJv dGggdGhlIDEwQWggKEQgCnNpemUpIGFuZCAzODAwbUFoIChzdWJDLXNpemUpIGNlbGxzIGRlbGl2 ZXJlZCB2ZXJ5IGNsb3NlIHRvIG5hbWVwbGF0ZSAKcmF0aW5ncy4gSSBnYXZlIHRoZW0gNCBzdGFy cyBvbmx5IGJlY2F1c2UgdGhlIGp1cnkgaXMgc3RpbGwgb3V0IG9uIApzZXJ2aWNlIGxpZmUgLiAu IC4gYnV0IEkgYW0gb3B0aW1pc3RpYy4KCgoKCiAgIEJvYiAuIC4gLiAKCgpfLT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQpfLT0gICAg ICAgICAgLSBUaGUgQWVyb0VsZWN0cmljLUxpc3QgRW1haWwgRm9ydW0gLQpfLT0gVXNlIHRoZSBN YXRyb25pY3MgTGlzdCBGZWF0dXJlcyBOYXZpZ2F0b3IgdG8gYnJvd3NlCl8tPSB0aGUgbWFueSBM aXN0IHV0aWxpdGllcyBzdWNoIGFzIExpc3QgVW4vU3Vic2NyaXB0aW9uLApfLT0gQXJjaGl2ZSBT ZWFyY2ggJiBEb3dubG9hZCwgNy1EYXkgQnJvd3NlLCBDaGF0LCBGQVEsCl8tPSBQaG90b3NoYXJl LCBhbmQgbXVjaCBtdWNoIG1vcmU6Cl8tPQpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3Mu Y29tL05hdmlnYXRvcj9BZXJvRWxlY3RyaWMtTGlzdApfLT0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgLSBNQVRST05JQ1MgV0VCIEZPUlVNUyAtCl8tPSBTYW1lIGdyZWF0IGNvbnRlbnQgYWxzbyBh dmFpbGFibGUgdmlhIHRoZSBXZWIgRm9ydW1zIQpfLT0KXy09ICAgLS0+IGh0dHA6Ly9mb3J1bXMu bWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbQpfLT0KXy09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT0KXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAtIE5FVyBNQVRST05JQ1Mg TElTVCBXSUtJIC0KXy09IEFkZCBzb21lIGluZm8gdG8gdGhlIE1hdHJvbmljcyBFbWFpbCBMaXN0 IFdpa2khCl8tPSAgIC0tPiBodHRwOi8vd2lraS5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tCl8tPT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09Cl8tPSAgICAg ICAgICAgICAtIExpc3QgQ29udHJpYnV0aW9uIFdlYiBTaXRlIC0KXy09ICBUaGFuayB5b3UgZm9y IHlvdXIgZ2VuZXJvdXMgc3VwcG9ydCEKXy09ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg LU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFkbWluLgpfLT0gICAtLT4gaHR0cDovL3d3dy5tYXRyb25pY3Mu Y29tL2NvbnRyaWJ1dGlvbgpfLT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PQoKCgoK ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:45 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode Several weeks ago I posted about an alternator failure. Here are a few more details. I tested the field circuit as Bob recommended, and it all checked out. After un/plugging the alternator connector several times, I noticed that the terminal within the connector that supplies the low voltage light had failed. Part was still crimped to the airframe wire, and part was held fast in the connector. I replaced the connector, and since all the wiring checked out, and since the alternator had last been working, I tried the alternator again. This time it had a hard failure. Zero amps, and just battery voltage on the bus. There wasn't any odd behavior this time. It just didn't work. So I rechecked all the wiring, and it all checked out. I installed a new alternator and it works fine. I took the back cover off the failed alternator and found it as shown in the pictures. I think undamaged terminal is the ground. It seems to attach to the alternator case. The failed terminal connects to what I assume is the regulator. The only explanation I can offer is that I lightly washed the alternator in solvent while it was removed for other engine work. I might have contaminated the brush/commutator interface. I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. Any guesses as to how an impending failure like this could have given me the overvoltage without opening the field breaker? I hope this was a one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. --Dave On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Yes, the breaker is the only control. Otherwise the alternator comes on > with the battery. I had the breaker pulled before start because of of som e > extended battery-on tests.=C3=82 > > > Okay . . . it would be a good lick to open the > breaker, clip an ammeter across the breaker, > battery on, engine not running. CONFIRM that > what appears to be field excitation current > is running through the breaker. > > > Again, it didn't last long but it was very strange to see the OV and the > breaker popped--I had to tell myself to shut down instead of analyze, > before the magic smoke came out... > > > Good move . . . > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:44 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode > >The only explanation I can offer is that I >lightly washed the alternator in solvent while >it was removed for other engine work.=C2 I might >have contaminated the brush/commutator >interface.=C2 I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. > >Any guesses as to how an impending failure like >this could have given me the overvoltage without >opening the field breaker?=C2 I hope this was a >one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. I'm not privy to the intimate details of the Plain Power approach to modifying the stock alternator for external control of the field circuit. All I have to go on is based on a telephone conversation with PP right after the crow-bar mod came on the market. Do you still have the whole alternator and all it's pieces? I wouldn't mind doing a autopsy on it. I'd pay postage both ways. What I can see in the pictures doesn't give me a clear notion of what might have failed first but it would be interesting to see if that fact is discoverable. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:50 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: AeroElectric-List: Alternator failure mode Several weeks ago I posted about an alternator failure. Here are a few more details. I tested the field circuit as Bob recommended, and it all checked out. After un/plugging the alternator connector several times, I noticed that the terminal within the connector that supplies the low voltage light had failed. Part was still crimped to the airframe wire, and part was held fast in the connector. I replaced the connector, and since all the wiring checked out, and since the alternator had last been working, I tried the alternator again. This time it had a hard failure. Zero amps, and just battery voltage on the bus. There wasn't any odd behavior this time. It just didn't work. So I rechecked all the wiring, and it all checked out. I installed a new alternator and it works fine. I took the back cover off the failed alternator and found it as shown in the pictures. I think undamaged terminal is the ground. It seems to attach to the alternator case. The failed terminal connects to what I assume is the regulator. The only explanation I can offer is that I lightly washed the alternator in solvent while it was removed for other engine work. I might have contaminated the brush/commutator interface. I didn't soak it--just a light external cleaning. Any guesses as to how an impending failure like this could have given me the overvoltage without opening the field breaker? I hope this was a one-in-a-zillion and that Plane Power's overvoltage protection is useful. --Dave On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 6:47 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Yes, the breaker is the only control. Otherwise the alternator comes on > with the battery. I had the breaker pulled before start because of of som e > extended battery-on tests.=C3=82 > > > Okay . . . it would be a good lick to open the > breaker, clip an ammeter across the breaker, > battery on, engine not running. CONFIRM that > what appears to be field excitation current > is running through the breaker. > > > Again, it didn't last long but it was very strange to see the OV and the > breaker popped--I had to tell myself to shut down instead of analyze, > before the magic smoke came out... > > > Good move . . . > > > Bob . . . > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.