Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:42 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (Charles Kuss)
2. 03:22 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:12 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (William Hunter)
4. 07:27 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 07:39 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (William Hunter)
6. 09:01 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (C&K)
7. 09:52 AM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (ashleysc@broadstripe.net)
8. 12:27 PM - Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad (David Lloyd)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Bill,
Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while
sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power
to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off]
It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods
of time.
I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s) in
the rectifier bridge. A diode is the electrical equivalent to a check valve
in a hydraulic system. It allows current to flow in one direction only. The rectifier's
purpose is to change the AC current the alternator makes into DC current
that your car's battery needs. Diodes can fail two ways. Fail Open [most
common] - the diode no longer allows any current to pass. This causes the alternator
to lose a portion of it's output capacity. Fail Shorted - this allows the
alternator to pass a portion of it's output as AC current. No drop in the alternator's
capacity will be noted. However, pumping AC current into a DC battery
will kill the battery in a matter of months, hence the premature battery failures.
Why do alternator diodes fail? Generally, because the battery is low
and when the engine starts, the alternator has to generate a LOT of current to
charge the battery. You can NOT test for shorted diodes with an ammeter. You
need proper testing equipment to find this condition. So, if you find that you
have shorted alternator diodes, repair the alternator(s). Then make sure that
each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine. That way, you don't
over tax the alternator right after start up.
Charlie
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 10/28/16, William Hunter <billhuntersemail@gmail.com> wrote:
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Date: Friday, October 28, 2016, 7:54 PM
My car battery died
after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad
luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are
classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal
when not in use) and some are often used daily drivers
(stock cars with stock electric systems).
It seems back in the day "maintenance
free" batteries seemed to last longer.
Is there something different now a days?
Bill Hunter
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to
have very bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles
are classic cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when
not in use) and some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with
stock electric systems).
The 'classics' did not load the battery
in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting the
battery in such vehicles for long term storage was
seldom, if ever, a useful thing to do. I think the
electric clock was the biggest load with very small
energy requirements.
Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands
while parked. I think my wife's Saturn has a battery
load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This
is greater than the normal and expected self-discharge
current characteristic of flooded batteries. If her
car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery
will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a
discharged condition self-destructs.
It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer.
Is there something different now a days?
I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very
small persistent loads even when parked . . . the
older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long
periods of time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer'
. . . not a 'trickle charger' the maintainer simply
holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at
which self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds
a nominally 12.9v battery up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts.
Not high enough to do any charging but higher than
normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become
a source of energy to offset self-discharging. I used
to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were
stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel.
Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years.
A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant
charge into a battery . . . which can be
greater than the self-discharge current . . . and
is ultimately deleterious to a battery on long term
storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders
I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's
a host of products out there.
http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk
The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are
used in my shop. Walmart stocks the Schumacher
product for about $25.
================
Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from
discharging while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge
[not having to supply power to those electrical circuits which run
even with the ignition switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle"
charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods of time.
Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid
battery also has a self-discharge characteristic
that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte.
Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in
90-120 days just sitting unload. Maintenance free
batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge
with the sealed battery being the present king
of long term storage. An SVLA battery should retain
70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long
as the temperatures are not really high.
I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted
diode(s) in the rectifier bridge.
<snip>
Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start
each engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up.
I've never encountered such a failure. The power
diodes used in alternators are exceedingly robust
devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage
is measured in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with
brushes and commutators that carry output current),
the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators
are inherently current limited. Normal operations
. . . even starting an engine with jumpers with
the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge
battery does no 'over tax' an alternator in any
serious way. I've seen that admonition for making
sure your battery is fully charged before firing
up the engine with a new alternator . . and I'm
mystified by it.
These things are explained in more detail in
The AeroElectric Connection. You can download
a copy here
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
or acquire a paper-copy here
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5
Your unexplained short term failure may be a
one-of event. But as a general observation, today's
battery products are as good as they ever have been.
Persistent failures have an explanation that
should and can be identified.
Bob . . .
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Thanks All!!!
This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had this
conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share this email
thread with him.
BTW.the most recent victim was a Saturn.
..
Cheers!!!
Bill Hunter
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert L.
Nuckolls, III
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 3:21 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very
bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars
used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some
are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems).
The 'classics' did not load the battery
in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting the
battery in such vehicles for long term storage was
seldom, if ever, a useful thing to do. I think the
electric clock was the biggest load with very small
energy requirements.
Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands
while parked. I think my wife's Saturn has a battery
load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This
is greater than the normal and expected self-discharge
current characteristic of flooded batteries. If her
car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery
will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a
discharged condition self-destructs.
It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer.
Is there something different now a days?
I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very
small persistent loads even when parked . . . the
older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long
periods of time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer'
. . . not a 'trickle charger' the maintainer simply
holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at
which self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds
a nominally 12.9v battery up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts.
Not high enough to do any charging but higher than
normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become
a source of energy to offset self-discharging. I used
to have a stable of laboratory batteries that were
stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel.
Some of them were service-ready after more than ten years.
A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant
charge into a battery . . . which can be
greater than the self-discharge current . . . and
is ultimately deleterious to a battery on long term
storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders
I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's
a host of products out there.
http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk
The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are
used in my shop. Walmart stocks the Schumacher
product for about $25.
================
Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging
while sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to
supply power to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition
switch off] It's best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit,
unused for long periods of time.
Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid
battery also has a self-discharge characteristic
that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte.
Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in
90-120 days just sitting unload. Maintenance free
batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge
with the sealed battery being the present king
of long term storage. An SVLA battery should retain
70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long
as the temperatures are not really high.
I would suggest that you have your alternator(s) tested for shorted diode(s)
in the rectifier bridge.
<snip>
Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each
engine. That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up.
I've never encountered such a failure. The power
diodes used in alternators are exceedingly robust
devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage
is measured in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with
brushes and commutators that carry output current),
the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators
are inherently current limited. Normal operations
. . . even starting an engine with jumpers with
the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge
battery does no 'over tax' an alternator in any
serious way. I've seen that admonition for making
sure your battery is fully charged before firing
up the engine with a new alternator . . and I'm
mystified by it.
These things are explained in more detail in
The AeroElectric Connection. You can download
a copy here
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
or acquire a paper-copy here
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5
Your unexplained short term failure may be a
one-of event. But as a general observation, today's
battery products are as good as they ever have been.
Persistent failures have an explanation that
should and can be identified.
Bob . . .
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:
>Thanks All!!!
>
>This is very good information. My 87 year old
>father and I have had this conversation numerous
>times over the decades and I will share this email thread with him.
>
>BTW=85the most recent victim was a Saturn.
I will suggest an experiment. . .
Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing
fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight
things will work.
Put it into the current measurement
mode. Remove one wire from the
Saturn's battery and put the multi-
meter in the gap.
I'll do the same on my wife's car . . .
it was about 15 years ago that
I made the discovery and my memory
of exact value is fuzzy . . .
but tomorrow.
Right now I'm packing up our Cotton
Candy concession into another 'classic'.
My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra
Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with
only 37K miles on it.
I've been honing my mechanics skills
re-furbing the things that succumb to
age and use. But it's very road-worthy and
we're participating in a fund raiser for
my grandchildren's grade school in
Wichita this evening.
Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and
some other 'electro whizzies . . .
I'll check all the cars for parasitic
parked loads and report back. If
anyone else on the List is so inclined,
it would be interesting to get some
data on a variety of vehicles.
Bob . . .
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Good idea Bob... I'm on a trip right now but will participate in this
clinical study when I get home. I'll see if my dad will join in on the fun
and contribute as well.
I hope your skills at setting the digital clock have not deteriated...
Bill Hunter
On Oct 29, 2016 9:33 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:
>
> Thanks All!!!
>
> This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had this
> conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share this email
> thread with him.
>
> BTWthe most recent victim was a Saturn.
>
>
> I will suggest an experiment. . .
>
> Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing
> fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight
> things will work.
>
> Put it into the current measurement
> mode. Remove one wire from the
> Saturn's battery and put the multi-
> meter in the gap.
>
> I'll do the same on my wife's car . . .
> it was about 15 years ago that
> I made the discovery and my memory
> of exact value is fuzzy . . .
> but tomorrow.
>
> Right now I'm packing up our Cotton
> Candy concession into another 'classic'.
> My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra
> Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with
> only 37K miles on it.
>
> I've been honing my mechanics skills
> re-furbing the things that succumb to
> age and use. But it's very road-worthy and
> we're participating in a fund raiser for
> my grandchildren's grade school in
> Wichita this evening.
>
> Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and
> some other 'electro whizzies . . .
> I'll check all the cars for parasitic
> parked loads and report back. If
> anyone else on the List is so inclined,
> it would be interesting to get some
> data on a variety of vehicles.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Won't matter too much on an 87 but especially for newer vehicles I'd
suggest putting the ammeter in the circuit before disconnecting the
battery so that you don't lose momentary power with resultant loss of
accumulated "learning" in the ecu as well as things like radio settings.
I understand that it can even require a return to the dealer to
re-instate radios that have anti-theft security features. Even better
might be a 9 volt battery temporarily plugged into a cigarette lighter
which should also keep the memories intact.
Ken
On 29/10/2016 10:26 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
> At 09:11 AM 10/29/2016, you wrote:
>> Thanks All!!!
>>
>> This is very good information. My 87 year old father and I have had
>> this conversation numerous times over the decades and I will share
>> this email thread with him.
>>
>> BTWthe most recent victim was a Saturn.
>
> I will suggest an experiment. . .
>
> Acquire a multimeter . . . nothing
> fancy. One of those $5 Harbor Freight
> things will work.
>
> Put it into the current measurement
> mode. Remove one wire from the
> Saturn's battery and put the multi-
> meter in the gap.
>
> I'll do the same on my wife's car . . .
> it was about 15 years ago that
> I made the discovery and my memory
> of exact value is fuzzy . . .
> but tomorrow.
>
> Right now I'm packing up our Cotton
> Candy concession into another 'classic'.
> My father willed his '87 GMC Sierra
> Classic 1500 to Dr. Dee . . . with
> only 37K miles on it.
>
> I've been honing my mechanics skills
> re-furbing the things that succumb to
> age and use. But it's very road-worthy and
> we're participating in a fund raiser for
> my grandchildren's grade school in
> Wichita this evening.
>
> Hmmm . . . the Sierra has TBI and
> some other 'electro whizzies . . .
> I'll check all the cars for parasitic
> parked loads and report back. If
> anyone else on the List is so inclined,
> it would be interesting to get some
> data on a variety of vehicles.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Hi Bob;
Hi All;
Further to the SLVA battery success stories:
When we were living 7 months in Anchorage and 5 months in Costa Rica each year,
we had a 1982 Nissan King Cab pickup that sat outdoors in Alaska's winter, Every
April first we would arrive back in Alaska, shovel the snow away from the
pickup, turn the switch, and it never failed to start up. The sealed lead acid
battery never let us dawn, even though we abused it unmercifully.
Cheers! Stu.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2016 3:21:26 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have very bad
luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic cars used
rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and some are often
used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems).
The 'classics' did not load the battery in the normal 'parked' condition. Disconnecting
the battery in such vehicles for long term storage was seldom, if ever,
a useful thing to do. I think the electric clock was the biggest load with
very small energy requirements .
Modern vehicles MAY have small battery demands while parked. I think my wife's
Saturn has a battery load on the order of 0.02 amps when parked. This is greater
than the normal and expected self-discharge current characteristic of flooded
batteries. If her car is not driven for a long period of time, the battery
will be discharged. Further, a battery stored in a discharged condition self-destructs.
It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last longer.
Is there something different now a days?
I don't think so. Modern cars may have some very small persistent loads even when
parked . . . the older cars will not. Batteries that sit for long periods of
time will benefit from use of a 'maintainer' . . . not a 'trickle charger' the
maintainer simply holds a battery's terminal voltage just above that at which
self-discharging takes place. A maintainer holds a nominally 12.9v battery
up to about 13.2 to 13.5 volts. Not high enough to do any charging but higher
than normal open circuit volts. Hence, the ac mains become a source of energy
to offset self-discharging. I used to have a stable of laboratory batteries that
were stored on a single maintainer all connected in parallel. Some of them
were service-ready after more than ten years .
A 'trickle charger' puts a small but constant charge into a battery . . . which
can be greater than the self-discharge current . . . and is ultimately deleterious
to a battery on long term storage. I still have a couple of Battery Tenders
I keep attached to my battery inventory. There's a host of products out there.
http://tinyurl.com/zzjhalk
The Battery Tender and the Schumacher SEM1562 are used in my shop. Walmart stocks
the Schumacher product for about $ 25. =================
Simply disconnecting the batteries does not prevent them from discharging while
sitting. It merely slows down the rate of discharge [not having to supply power
to those electrical circuits which run even with the ignition switch off] It's
best to keep a "trickle" charger on batteries that sit, unused for long periods
of time.
Generally true . . . with additions. The lead-acid battery also has a self-discharge
characteristic that is a function of dissolved oxygen in the electrolyte.
Flooded batteries of bygone times would run down in 90-120 days just sitting
unload. Maintenance free batteries were a step up for controlling self discharge
with the sealed battery being the present king of long term storage. An SVLA
battery should retain 70-80% of capacity after a year of storage as long as
the temperatures are not really high. I would suggest that you have your alternator(s)
tested for shorted diode(s) in the rectifier bridge.
<snip>
Then make sure that each battery is fully charged BEFORE you start each engine.
That way, you don't over tax the alternator right after start up.
I've never encountered such a failure. The power diodes used in alternators are
exceedingly robust devices and their reverse leakage at battery voltage is measured
in nanoamps. Unlike generators (with brushes and commutators that carry
output current), the alternator has no such weak-link. Alternators are inherently
current limited. Normal operations . . . even starting an engine with jumpers
with the alternator grunting the load of a fully discharge battery does no
'over tax' an alternator in any serious way. I've seen that admonition for making
sure your battery is fully charged before firing up the engine with a new
alternator . . and I'm mystified by it.
These things are explained in more detail in The AeroElectric Connection. You can
download a copy here
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
or acquire a paper-copy here
http://tinyurl.com/cgr42l5
Your unexplained short term failure may be a one-of event. But as a general observation,
today's battery products are as good as they ever have been. Persistent
failures have an explanation that should and can be identified.
Bob . . .
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What Causes Battery to Go Bad |
Just some suggestions about auto battery failure. . . .
>From a simplified view point, batteries usually fail because. . .
1. Being over-charged in the vehicle or on a charger or both. .
2. Being constantly under-charged in vehicle or charger or both. .
3. Bad environment; vibration, etc.
My personal opinion is your problem is #2.
Just disconnecting the negative lead is not enough for a lead-acid based ba
ttery. It will self discharge thru a variety of "paths"; internally and ex
ternally.
Hooking up a small (low amperage) charger also leads mostly to a disaster a
s it eventually goes to an over-voltage state, thus gassing the cells dry.
A good solution is to connect a "Battery Maintainer" to the battery and lea
ve it connected. If it is set to the correct float voltage, it will charge
essentially to that voltage and then "sit" adding a little bit as is neede
d. These units are cheap. Even Harbor Freight has models that on sale or
under $10.
However, many of the units may come out of the box not calibrated exactly c
orrect for float voltage. The float voltage should be in the region of 13.
2 - 13.4 volts in my opinion.
One can buy a fairly good DVM, digital volt meter, for under $20. I sugges
t buying a Maintainer from a close by local store. Also pick up the DVM.
Hook it up to one of your batteries that is "good" and let it run for a cou
ple of days until it is stabilized and check the battery voltage; this will
be the stabilized float voltage. If it is too high or low, box it up and
return it for another unit. The factory QC in many cases is not very good
at final V settings of these units.
Personally, I take mine apart, carefully, locate the adjustment "pot", dril
l a small hole for a tiny screwdriver in the case and reassemble it.
And, carefully, adjust the voltage control pot over several days until I li
ke the final float voltage.......
Dave
PS; be careful of using a small solar panel to maintain charge. Many "12 v
olt" types can go to 18v or higher in bright sun. The panel must have a vo
ltage control within it. Low amp units can be controlled simply with a Zen
er type diode. . ..
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
----- Original Message -----
From: William Hunter
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2016 4:54 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: What Causes Battery to Go Bad
My car battery died after 9 months. In the last 20 years I seem to have v
ery bad luck with batteries in various vehicles. These vehicles are classic
cars used rarely (I disconnect the negative terminal when not in use) and
some are often used daily drivers (stock cars with stock electric systems).
It seems back in the day "maintenance free" batteries seemed to last long
er.
Is there something different now a days?
Bill Hunter
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|