---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/02/16: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:18 AM - Re: LED Ghosting (Thermos) 2. 08:02 AM - Re: Re: LED Ghosting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:14 AM - Re: Re: LED Ghosting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 09:20 AM - Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch (micreb) 5. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: LED Ghosting (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 09:31 AM - 4 light wig-wag (micreb) 7. 11:03 AM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 11:20 AM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 11:22 AM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 12:46 PM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 02:28 PM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Buckaroo Banzai) 12. 06:22 PM - Re: 4 light wig-wag (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:18:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting From: "Thermos" Bob, Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- "The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that come back for other reasons." Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. Thanks, Dave -------- Dave RV-7 fuselage Boston, MA Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461883#461883 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential >mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- > >"The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the >one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate >that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that >come back for other reasons." > >Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this >mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the >same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-on replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But if you'd rather mod the regulator instead, that's certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED . . . THE ORIGINAL REPLY GOT TRUNCATED. LET'S TRY AGAIN. At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >Bob, > >Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential >mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- > >"The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the >one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate >that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that >come back for other reasons." > >Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this >mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the >same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-on replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But if you'd rather mod the regulator instead, that's certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:41 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Hourmeter / oil pressure switch From: "micreb" Wow, this got frustrating... But finally success. Anyone else up against this just go to NAPA and get an Echlin Oil Pressure Switch PN OP6627. It's a higher pressure rating than some of the other generics, and labels exactly as Bobs 'Hourmeter/Oil P Warn' diagram.... Right down to the P,S,& I labeled fast on studs..... It's 1/4 NPT threads. Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461887#461887 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:22 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: LED Ghosting MAYBE THE THIRD TIME IS THE 'CHARM' . . . I RAN A CUT-N-PASTE THROUGH A VISIBLE TEXT ONLY FILTER JUST IN CASE SOME HIDDEN CHARACTER WAS CAUSING THE MESSAGE TO END EARLY . . . At 09:16 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: Bob, Reawakening this thread, you mentioned a few years ago a potential mod to the LR3C to eliminate "ghosting" when using LEDs as annunciatirs- "The 'problem' can be eliminated by snipping out the one-time-useful resistor. I think I'll suggest that B&C eliminate that resistor in future production and modify any regulators that come back for other reasons." Am I understanding this correctly as a solution, and if so, was this mod ever made by B&C? I purchased an LR3C this year and if it's the same as before, I may wait 'till it's out of warranty then do the mod myself. The LV warning output from the LR3 is designed to drive INCANDESCENT lamps while offering a warning for loss of operating power to the LV warning system. This philosophy has served TC and OBAM aviation well for several decades. LEDS are the new kids on the block . . . and like lithium batteries, dynamic microphones, LED nav lights, etc . . . they are not form/fit/function drop-in replacements for their legacy ancestors. It's easy to make an LED emulate the incandescent lamp for purposes of using it to annunciate low volts on an LR3 installation. See: http://tinyurl.com/cgnwr5k But as you've noted modifying the regulator instead, is certainly doable . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:31:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag From: "micreb" I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance the already attention getting 2 light system? All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the prices come down.... Paul -------- I'd rather be flying than building but there's an end to the means here (I hope). Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=461888#461888 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag At 11:30 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing >and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? >Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance >the already attention getting 2 light system? >All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the >prices come down.... probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are no particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:20:13 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag At 11:30 AM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > >I replaced the wing tips on my Murphy Rebel and now have a landing >and taxi light on each wing... Who needs runway lights, eh? >Anyone have any ideas on wigwag for all 4 lights that would enhance >the already attention getting 2 light system? >All 4 are halogen. Not really interested in LEDs yet till the >prices come down.... probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:08 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag probably no big advantage in 'doubling' the light output. The effectiveness of a wig-wag system has more to do with SPACING between the lamps than with intensity. The eye is a very logarithmic sensor device that delivers little new information to the brain due to 2x increase in intensity. On the other hand, visual acuity determines the angular displacement that must be exceeded before a pair of flashing lights is perceived as more than a single light source. Worked this issue MANY times in preparing accident analysis data for litigation of railroad grade crossing accidents. Lawyers were fond of latching onto visual differences between newest 12" roundels versus legacy 8" lenses. Perceived intensity of the lights is driven mostly by behaviors of the lens for shaping the beam than by the size of the lamp or its associated lens. The attention getting quality of a grade crossing signal (originally a single lamp on the end of a swinging arm . . . a wig wag) is the distance between the lamps. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Round Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:00 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag For some reason, my replies to the List have been getting truncated. I can seed the same email to my personal account with no adverse effects but files to the List get clipped. The last paragraphs of my abbreviated posting are as follows: Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:22 PM PST US From: Buckaroo Banzai Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag I saw 4 responses and they all ended the same way. It looked like a complete response to me. -------------------------------------------- On Wed, 11/2/16, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Date: Wednesday, November 2, 2016, 12:44 PM For some reason, my replies to the List have been getting truncated. I can seed the same email to my personal account with no adverse effects but files to the List get clipped. The last paragraphs of my abbreviated posting are as follows: Those interested in exploring this topic from the railroad perspective may download the grade crossing 'bible' at http://tinyurl.com/j3nveyx For our purposes, effectiveness of the wig-wag system is improved by mounting the lamps as far apart as practical on the wings. A larger 'stroke' distance translates into a greater range of perceptions. Our development wig-wag adds another feature that goes to range of perception. At great distance, the two lights visually merge and are not particularly attention getting. However, if you 'triple flash' each lamp during its respective on-cycle, then you exploit perception of flashing which occurs at greater range and perception of motion. http://tinyurl.com/bos5p5r As you approach the observer, perception of motion adds to perception of flashing. The short answer is, doubling up on the lamps is of little value. But mounting them further apart and/or flashing is a good thing to do. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:45 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: 4 light wig-wag At 04:24 PM 11/2/2016, you wrote: > > >I saw 4 responses and they all ended the same way. It looked like a >complete response to me. Oh good . . . thank you. I checked the forum through the browser and confirmed your observation. Pleased to know it's MY problem and not somebody else's! 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