---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/18/17: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:29 AM - Diode or relay in a circuit? (William Hunter) 2. 01:01 AM - Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (Stuart Hutchison) 3. 06:22 AM - Re: DPST switch in place of split rocker master (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 07:17 AM - Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (user9253) 5. 08:06 AM - Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (user9253) 6. 08:33 AM - Re: DPST switch in place of split rocker master (digidocs) 7. 09:12 AM - Red LED Beacon (J Rabon) 8. 09:30 AM - Re: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (William Hunter) 9. 10:28 AM - Re: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (Earl Gmail) 10. 10:41 AM - Re: Red LED Beacon (Bill Bradburry) 11. 12:00 PM - Re: Red LED Beacon (Eric M. Jones) 12. 04:34 PM - Re: Re: Red LED Beacon (William Hunter) 13. 04:58 PM - Re: Re: Red LED Beacon (William Hunter) 14. 05:32 PM - Re: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (William Hunter) 15. 08:42 PM - Re: Red LED Beacon (Rick Beebe) 16. 08:49 PM - Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:09 AM PST US From: William Hunter Subject: AeroElectric-List: Diode or relay in a circuit? I was hoping I could solicit the advice from you all on this forum regarding building a circuit for landing lights. Specifically my airplane is a retractable gear airplane and it has a high intensity landing light in the nose cone and I am also installing LED lights on each main landing gear leg. I am going to use the Rockrack switches that are the on/off/on variety. The plan is to wire up this switch so that when the switch is: UP: When the landing gear is retracted I want to turn off the LED lights attached to the gear legs so that they're not illuminated when they are inside the gear wells and just the landing light in the nose cone is illuminated. CENTER - All lights are extinguished. DOWN- All three lights are illuminated (the landing light in the nose and also the lights on each of the main landing gear legs are illuminated). I imagine that I need to either wire in a relay or to use a diode for this combined circuit. I was going to wire up an automobile relay however that might be a bit too much weight for such a simplistic circuit such as this. I imagine some kind of diode but that diode would have to handle as high as 10 amps. Additionally the rock rack switches contain two green LEDs that are user/externally wired so that when the switch is in the UP position the top LED is supposed to illuminate, when the switch is in the center position both LEDs are extinguished, and when the switch is in the DOWN position the bottom LED will illuminate. The Aveo people have been most unhelpful in providing me with a schematic for the three-way switch. If somebody could help out with this I would be most grateful! THANKS!!! Bill Hunter ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:01:25 AM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Diode or relay in a circuit? Sounds like unnecessary extra in-flight work for you Bill I would arm the entire circuit with a single switch that turns on the nose landing light straight away, but is wired in parallel with a microswitch and relay to allow current to flow to the gear leg lights only when the gear is physically in transit going down. Cheers, Stu > On 18 Jan 2017, at 19:27, William Hunter wrote: > > I was hoping I could solicit the advice from you all on this forum regarding building a circuit for landing lights. Specifically my airplane is a retractable gear airplane and it has a high intensity landing light in the nose cone and I am also installing LED lights on each main landing gear leg. > > I am going to use the Rockrack switches that are the on/off/on variety. The plan is to wire up this switch so that when the switch is: > > UP: When the landing gear is retracted I want to turn off the LED lights attached to the gear legs so that they're not illuminated when they are inside the gear wells and just the landing light in the nose cone is illuminated. > > CENTER - All lights are extinguished. > > DOWN- All three lights are illuminated (the landing light in the nose and also the lights on each of the main landing gear legs are illuminated). > > I imagine that I need to either wire in a relay or to use a diode for this combined circuit. I was going to wire up an automobile relay however that might be a bit too much weight for such a simplistic circuit such as this. I imagine some kind of diode but that diode would have to handle as high as 10 amps. > > Additionally the rock rack switches contain two green LEDs that are user/externally wired so that when the switch is in the UP position the top LED is supposed to illuminate, when the switch is in the center position both LEDs are extinguished, and when the switch is in the DOWN position the bottom LED will illuminate. > > The Aveo people have been most unhelpful in providing me with a schematic for the three-way switch. If somebody could help out with this I would be most grateful! > > THANKS!!! > > Bill Hunter ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:22:20 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: DPST switch in place of split rocker master At 06:22 PM 1/17/2017, you wrote: > >Hi list, > >I'm curious if there would be any negative consequences to using a >standard SPDT toggle switch in lieu of the red split rocker or a >progressive transfer toggleswitch. I already have a pullable >breaker that can be used to shut down the (externally regulated) >alternator in the rare case when that's desirable and I like the >simplicity of just "on" and "off". That's exactly what is suggested in Figure Z-13/8 Emacs! >The only potential snag that has occurred to me thus far is that >there could be a "load dump" event on switch off. This could happen >because even though the field is disconnected at the same time as >the battery, there is still stored energy in the alternator >inductance that may take a few 100s of ms to dissipate. This energy >would have to go to the bus as the battery would no longer be >present to absorb it. Load dumps come in two forms. (1) The 'automotive' load dump even occurs when a lightly loaded system is robustly recharging a depleted battery and some electrical gremlin of undefined origins disconnects the battery. The response time for a hard-working alternator is not zero . . . in the milliseconds following a battery disconnect, the bus voltage will 'surge' to some higher valve for the interval required to bring the alternatorunder control. (2) The 'aviation' load dump is generated when some large drain on the system is suddenly released in an otherwise perfectly normal system. My first explorations of such events involved system behaviors when large motors (air conditioning compressor, landing gear and electro-hydraulic pumps) were shut off. These loads placed demands of 100A or more on the system. Of course, the flip side of that coin studied system voltage depressions generated by the startup inrush currents for those same devices. Bus voltage perturbations generated in (2) have been studied in great detail and bounded by design goals defined in publications like Mil-Std-704 for power generation and DO-160 for appliance tolerance to such events. But in neither venue will you generate untenable bus voltage excursions with the simultaneous operations of alternator field supply and battery contactor. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:21 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? From: "user9253" Attached is a schematic to control two circuits. The switch terminals can be figured out using a continuity meter or test light, the kind with flashlight batteries. If using a meter with a diode check function, the meter will show about 0.7 volts when the switch indicator LED is conducting. How many terminals do your switches have? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465185#465185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/light_sw_dpdt_242.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? From: "user9253" Here is another circuit using Stu's idea which is a good one that will reduce pilot workload. Landing is a busy time. The pilot does not have to be concerned about what position the light switch is in. The switch only has two positions, up or down, on or off. There is no center position. Either a DPDT ON-NONE-ON or a DPST ON-OFF switch can be used. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465189#465189 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/switch_lndg_gear_464.jpg ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:33 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: DPST switch in place of split rocker master From: "digidocs" Bob, Thank you for your response. It's exactly the confirmation I was looking for. Have a nice day, David Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465191#465191 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:12 AM PST US From: J Rabon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Red LED Beacon Bill, The very best I have found is the Aveo Posi Strobe Mini Max. Some of the pain of high first cost could be relieved by the lifetime guarantee - if it fails for any reason you get a replacement. These guys have it for $347 including shipping: http://www.21stcentury-usa.com/aveo/aveoflash/minimax/ It looks like a quality unit, just the thing you need when ahead of the prop. Jack ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:45 AM PST US From: "William Hunter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? Joe and Stu, I knew I could count on you!!! I REALLY like Stu's idea about the auto turn off function...how does one (me) know if it really turned off when the wheel is retracted in the well? At least with my refrigerator light I positively confirmed that the light turns off when the door is closed by placing my iPhone in the fridge and closing the door. Then when I removed the phone and closed the door I could no longer confirm that the light was off so stuck my phone back in the fridge and I Face-timed the phone from inside the fridge and I was comforted...then...I was also worried about the freezer light...I got so worried about it not turning off that I placed my wife's iPhone in the freezer just to make sure that the freezer light would also turn off when the door is closed...then...I got so worked up and was worrying about these lights that I forgot her iPhone was in the freezer and now my wife does not have an iPhone anymore...nor do I know if the freezer light still shuts off when the door is closed...DANG...all off this stress about the fridge lights that I hard wired a light switch to the outside of the fridge just to make sure...now I forget to turn off the switch after getting a beer(s) and the lights stay on. Sooo...what could possibly go wrong in an airplane?!?!?! I guess I can duct tape my phone to the gear leg...Hmmmm...how will I know that the other gear leg light is indeed turned off?!?!? I guess I will need to purchase another iPhone for the wife... THANKS AGAIN Ya'All!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 8:04 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? Here is another circuit using Stu's idea which is a good one that will reduce pilot workload. Landing is a busy time. The pilot does not have to be concerned about what position the light switch is in. The switch only has two positions, up or down, on or off. There is no center position. Either a DPDT ON-NONE-ON or a DPST ON-OFF switch can be used. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465189#465189 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/switch_lndg_gear_464.jpg ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:28:04 AM PST US From: Earl Gmail Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? Thanks Bill! We all need some comic relief!! Do not archive > On Jan 18, 2017, at 11:27, William Hunter wrote: > > > Joe and Stu, > > I knew I could count on you!!! > > I REALLY like Stu's idea about the auto turn off function...how does one > (me) know if it really turned off when the wheel is retracted in the well? > > At least with my refrigerator light I positively confirmed that the light > turns off when the door is closed by placing my iPhone in the fridge and > closing the door. Then when I removed the phone and closed the door I could > no longer confirm that the light was off so stuck my phone back in the > fridge and I Face-timed the phone from inside the fridge and I was > comforted...then...I was also worried about the freezer light...I got so > worried about it not turning off that I placed my wife's iPhone in the > freezer just to make sure that the freezer light would also turn off when > the door is closed...then...I got so worked up and was worrying about these > lights that I forgot her iPhone was in the freezer and now my wife does not > have an iPhone anymore...nor do I know if the freezer light still shuts off > when the door is closed...DANG...all off this stress about the fridge lights > that I hard wired a light switch to the outside of the fridge just to make > sure...now I forget to turn off the switch after getting a beer(s) and the > lights stay on. > > Sooo...what could possibly go wrong in an airplane?!?!?! > > I guess I can duct tape my phone to the gear leg...Hmmmm...how will I know > that the other gear leg light is indeed turned off?!?!? I guess I will need > to purchase another iPhone for the wife... > > THANKS AGAIN Ya'All!!! > > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 8:04 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? > > > Here is another circuit using Stu's idea which is a good one that will > reduce pilot workload. Landing is a busy time. The pilot does not have to > be concerned about what position the light switch is in. The switch only > has two positions, up or down, on or off. There is no center position. > Either a DPDT ON-NONE-ON or a DPST ON-OFF switch can be used. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465189#465189 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/switch_lndg_gear_464.jpg > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:55 AM PST US From: "Bill Bradburry" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Red LED Beacon This company only has red and white, no green! I suppose this would work if you can figure out how to stay to the right of the world so they can see your red light, but if anyone gets to your right side, you will be in violation since you have no green light! :>( -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J Rabon Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 11:09 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Red LED Beacon Bill, The very best I have found is the Aveo Posi Strobe Mini Max. Some of the pain of high first cost could be relieved by the lifetime guarantee - if it fails for any reason you get a replacement. These guys have it for $347 including shipping: http://www.21stcentury-usa.com/aveo/aveoflash/minimax/ It looks like a quality unit, just the thing you need when ahead of the prop. Jack ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:00:24 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red LED Beacon From: "Eric M. Jones" I posted an article some years ago on LED beacons. (attached) At the time they LEDs were marginal but now are easy. (Whelen's engineers probably used this information in their beehive beacon...or if they didn't they should have). The problem is the envelope. You can buy lamp envelopes, but it is cheaper to buy a lamp, chop it and epoxy a connection to it. Old film projector lamps are good sources of globes. The globes I have seen are not actually very streamlined. BTW: You can use red lamps instead of white in aircraft because neon had an important part in aviation in the 1920s. BTW: NOT using a little jar or beehive is my plan. I would appreciate anyone's advice on adding several groups of flush LEDs in a way that met the requirements. Same goes for red and green position lights. Any ideas? -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465206#465206 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_beacons_using_leds_170.pdf ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:34:13 PM PST US From: "William Hunter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red LED Beacon THANKS for all of the advice. Yes...the Aevo unit is the one I really want however $339.00 is about $300.00 more than I wanted to spend. Whilst blinded by the red tractor trailer corner lights on my drive last night I got to thinking...dang...those are pretty bright. Sadly after looking at them online it seems that they are nor 360 degree shine pattern so no go. The price was right. A guy could stick about 100 of them on all corners of his airplane like the truckers do...Hmmm... .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 11:58 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red LED Beacon --> I posted an article some years ago on LED beacons. (attached) At the time they LEDs were marginal but now are easy. (Whelen's engineers probably used this information in their beehive beacon...or if they didn't they should have). The problem is the envelope. You can buy lamp envelopes, but it is cheaper to buy a lamp, chop it and epoxy a connection to it. Old film projector lamps are good sources of globes. The globes I have seen are not actually very streamlined. BTW: You can use red lamps instead of white in aircraft because neon had an important part in aviation in the 1920s. BTW: NOT using a little jar or beehive is my plan. I would appreciate anyone's advice on adding several groups of flush LEDs in a way that met the requirements. Same goes for red and green position lights. Any ideas? -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465206#465206 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_beacons_using_leds_170.pdf ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:19 PM PST US From: "William Hunter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red LED Beacon Hey Eric (Jones), Looks like someone stole your idea!!! Check this out: https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/strobe-beacons/led-hideaway-strobe- lights-mini-emergency-vehicle-led-warning-lights/1905/#/tab/Overview At first I thought by looking at the picture that this was a large gumball like glass dome however this booger is only 1.5 inches tall including the base. 360 degree pattern. I also initially did not like the look of the aluminum base...kinda ugly however they offer a "flange mount" that makes it more aerodynamic. Heck for 45 BUCKS it just might be what I was looking for!!! Check out this product review (anyone we know): BRIGHTEST LED ON THE MARKET! I installed these tiny but Extremely bright LEDs on my experimental aircraft (Helicopter), and it is very bright even in direct sunlight! VFR (Visual Flight Rules) See and BE seen when flying in shared airspace with other aircraft. Not all aircraft have Transponders that let other aircraft know where you are, so the F.A.A. requires you to be able to be seen. Sadly, LIGHTING marketed for "Aircraft" is VERY EXPENSIVE! These tiny but VERY bright lights are AWESOME, and a fraction of the price of other aviation lighting. I have shared these LEDs with other pilots, and everyone is impressed! Old fashioned strobes draw lots of energy, and LEDs do NOT. .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Eric M. Jones Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 11:58 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red LED Beacon --> I posted an article some years ago on LED beacons. (attached) At the time they LEDs were marginal but now are easy. (Whelen's engineers probably used this information in their beehive beacon...or if they didn't they should have). The problem is the envelope. You can buy lamp envelopes, but it is cheaper to buy a lamp, chop it and epoxy a connection to it. Old film projector lamps are good sources of globes. The globes I have seen are not actually very streamlined. BTW: You can use red lamps instead of white in aircraft because neon had an important part in aviation in the 1920s. BTW: NOT using a little jar or beehive is my plan. I would appreciate anyone's advice on adding several groups of flush LEDs in a way that met the requirements. Same goes for red and green position lights. Any ideas? -------- Eric M. Jones www.PerihelionDesign.com 113 Brentwood Drive Southbridge, MA 01550 (508) 764-2072 emjones(at)charter.net Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465206#465206 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/aircraft_beacons_using_leds_170.pdf ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:32:24 PM PST US From: "William Hunter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? Joe, Thanks for the schematic!!! Can I (PLEASE) pick your brain a bit more?!??! I do not know what the existing nose cone landing light bulb is...it is a "HID" (blueish color) bulb and it has " 55W 24V HID" printed on the inside plastic base. I have attached a picture (hopefully it goes through). My aircraft is a 12 VDC system so the "24V was surprising"? Does anyone recognize this bulb? I am trying to reconstruct records for all of the equipment that came on this airplane (the previous owner was not the builder...he had a "builders assistant" build the airplane for him and he lost most of the records/receipts) The goal is to run the existing nose cone light bulb plus two of the following LED light bars (one on each landing gear leg): http://www.ebay.com/itm/152175264897?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName =STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT The questions I have are: -What size circuit breaker should I run considering the HID nose light and the two LED light bars will be pulling off of the same circuit (the LED light bars do not have any technical documents)? -If I run the circuit like you provided me, what size diode should I use? -Should the diode be placed in the circuit of the HID nose light or should it be placed in the dual LED light bar circuit? THANKS ...I REALLY APPRECIATE your help!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of user9253 Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 7:14 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? Attached is a schematic to control two circuits. The switch terminals can be figured out using a continuity meter or test light, the kind with flashlight batteries. If using a meter with a diode check function, the meter will show about 0.7 volts when the switch indicator LED is conducting. How many terminals do your switches have? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465185#465185 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/light_sw_dpdt_242.jpg ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:42:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Red LED Beacon From: Rick Beebe Aveo makes wingtip nav/position/strobe lights that come in red and green. I put their Aurora lights on my plane this summer. They had a good deal at AirVenture. I like them a lot. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/el/ledlighting_zaveoflash.html --Rick On 1/18/2017 1:38 PM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > This company only has red and white, no green! I suppose this would work if > you can figure out how to stay to the right of the world so they can see > your red light, but if anyone gets to your right side, you will be in > violation since you have no green light! :>( > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of J Rabon > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 11:09 AM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: AeroElectric-List: Red LED Beacon > > > Bill, > > The very best I have found is the Aveo Posi Strobe Mini Max. Some of > the pain of high first cost could be relieved by the lifetime > guarantee - if it fails for any reason you get a replacement. > > These guys have it for $347 including shipping: > http://www.21stcentury-usa.com/aveo/aveoflash/minimax/ > > It looks like a quality unit, just the thing you need when ahead of the > prop. > > Jack > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:21 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Diode or relay in a circuit? From: "user9253" There is no diode in my schematics other than the LED. The two little arrows next to the diode symbol indicate that it is a Light Emitting Diode aka LED. No additional diode is needed other than the LEDs that you already have. Adding up the wattages of all 3 lights, 55 + 72 + 72 = 199W 199 watts / 14 volts = 14 amps I would use a 20 amp breaker and 12AWG wire. If the breaker trips, all light will be lost. You might consider two separate circuits. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=465231#465231 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.