Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:03 AM - Z-17/ alternator wire protection (Jeff Point)
2. 07:04 AM - Re: Z12 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 07:18 AM - Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:44 AM - Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection (user9253)
5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 09:01 AM - battery charger vs power supply (Bernie Willis)
7. 09:04 AM - Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection (user9253)
8. 09:12 AM - Re: Z12 Question (Ken Ryan)
9. 09:34 AM - Re: Flap control suggestions (jonlaury)
10. 09:39 AM - Re: battery charger vs power supply (user9253)
11. 11:49 AM - Re: Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection (Charlie England)
12. 11:50 AM - Re: Z12 Question (Charlie England)
13. 12:15 PM - Re: Flap control suggestions (Bill Watson)
14. 12:35 PM - Re: Flap control suggestions (Alec Myers)
15. 02:15 PM - Re: Z12 Question (user9253)
16. 02:16 PM - Re: Z12 Question (Ken Ryan)
17. 02:30 PM - Re: Z12 Question (don van santen)
18. 02:31 PM - Re: Z12 Question (don van santen)
19. 03:00 PM - Re: Z12 Question (Charlie England)
20. 03:10 PM - Re: Z12 Question (don van santen)
21. 03:22 PM - Icom junction box (Dean Psiropoulos)
22. 03:41 PM - Re: Z12 Question (John Morgensen)
23. 07:10 PM - Re: Z12 Question (user9253)
24. 10:20 PM - Re: Re: Z12 Question (don van santen)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
Hello,
I am confused about the requirements for protection of the A/C wires
from the alternator. I'm planning to use Z-17 as the basis for my
electrical design for my simple, day-VFR aircraft. Battery will be a
Earth-X 680, alternator is a B&C 200G, along with a B&C starter on an O-200.
The drawing that came with the alternator shows a 15A fuse in one of the
A/C lines from the alternator to the regulator, as well as a 15A breaker
between the crowbar relay and the power bus. However, Z-17 omits the
fuse in the A/C wires but does put a fusible link between the crowbar
relay and the battery (via the hot post of the starter contactor.)
Other Z- drawings using the SD-8/ 200G also omit the fuse in the A/C
wiring. The only drawing I've found which includes it is the one from B&C.
Is the fuse in the A/C wires required?
Thanks.
Jeff Point
Milwaukee WI
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV
>to a Z12 format. The B&C install kit includes an
>ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
>question is, is it reasonable to connect my
>existing anl with its 80 amp fuse and the anl
>from the stand by source to a single load meter
>shunt with the output side connected to the cold
>side of the starter contactor? Except for the
>addition of the second ANL and the B leed from
>the standby there are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>My reason for asking is that it will be
>difficult to add an additional load meter to my
>panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would
>only be generating when the main alternator is
>offline for what ever reason. The meter reads
>out=C2 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The
>EFIS has a connection for a hall effect amp
>sensor but that would require two firewall
>penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
>I am not sure that I have given enough
>information to answer my question, but I would appreciate any input.=C2
TIA, Don
I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
than a source of data for airborne operations.
The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
low voltage are the most powerful tools for
electrical system monitoring and mitigation
of failure.
In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
the equipment that can be supported in various phases
of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
continued flight to airport of intended destination
with a failed main alternator.
In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
going to place on the standby alternator by having
developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
e-bus at some level above that which discharges
the battery.
For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
looks cool but has no value as a tool for
risk-reduction.
If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
my first choice of architectures whether or not
loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
Bob . . .
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
At 07:54 AM 2/11/2017, you wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>I am confused about the requirements for protection of the A/C wires
>from the alternator. I'm planning to use Z-17 as the basis for my
>electrical design for my simple, day-VFR aircraft. Battery will be
>a Earth-X 680, alternator is a B&C 200G, along with a B&C starter on an O-200.
>
>The drawing that came with the alternator shows a 15A fuse in one of
>the A/C lines from the alternator to the regulator, as well as a 15A
>breaker between the crowbar relay and the power bus. However, Z-17
>omits the fuse in the A/C wires but does put a fusible link between
>the crowbar relay and the battery (via the hot post of the starter contactor.)
>
>Other Z- drawings using the SD-8/ 200G also omit the fuse in the A/C
>wiring. The only drawing I've found which includes it is the one from B&C.
>
>Is the fuse in the A/C wires required?
The two-fuse combination of protection considers the fact
that energy capable of burning wires in the
PM alternator system comes from TWO directions.
(1) fault in the R/R that places high load on
alternator and (2) fault - perhaps the same one -
that loads the battery.
I recommend 15A inline fuses at both locations.
This fuseholder is one of several options suited
to the task.
http://tinyurl.com/gmpr8j2
Bob . . .
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
No, the AC fuse is not required because the generator is self current limiting.
The alternator could overheat if the output is shorted or very heavily loaded.
A fuse might protect against that. On the other hand, a fuse in the AC output
is one more thing that could fail and cause the aircraft to lose electrical
power.
The output of an alternator does not normally have over-current protection. However
the "B" lead is protected by a fuse at the battery end. That fuse protects
the battery and the "B" lead from battery current, not from alternator output
current.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466001#466001
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
At 09:42 AM 2/11/2017, you wrote:
>
>No, the AC fuse is not required because the generator is self
>current limiting.
Yeah . . . mostly . . . indeed, an SD-8 turning
4K RPM max is at little risk for smoke due to
hard fault. But that's a condition I'll check
next time I get on the test bench.
The 200G on a Continental is belt driven with
a pretty high ratio. This is why, with the SAME
magnetics, it is rated at 12A output. It's almost
a certainty that this machine would smoke seriously
if the R/R presents a hard fault.
Bob . . .
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | battery charger vs power supply |
My aircraft maintenance manual recommends using a power supply when swinging the
electric motor powered landing gear because the battery will loose power over
time and slow the retraction time hiding problems with the mechanism. What
is the difference between a battery charger and a power supply in this application?
Will leaving a power supply connected without a load damage the battery
or other electronics? What happens if the electrical load is greater than the
output of the power supply?
Would appreciate you thoughts!
Bernie Willis
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
Oops. Bob posted his reply while I was still composing mine. And my reply contradicts
his. So now I am confused. Why doesn't Z-13/8 or Z-17 have a fuse protecting
the dynamo AC output?
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466005#466005
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
installing a loadmeter:
If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery starts
asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am leaning to
installing one for the above stated reason.
Ken
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>
> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The B&C
> install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
> question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80 amp
> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt wi
th
> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Exce
pt
> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby there
> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. The
> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS has
a
> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two firewa
ll
> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my question,
> but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>
>
> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>
> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>
> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
> of failure.
>
> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>
>
> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed main
> alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
> going to place on the standby alternator by having
> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
> the battery.
>
> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
> risk-reduction.
>
> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
> my first choice of architectures whether or not
> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flap control suggestions |
I have limited flight time with this http://www.aircraftextras.com/FPS-Plus-nt.htm unit, but I'm pleased with it so far. It's programmable so you can find the flap settings that work best for your plane and loading and set them as a pre-selected positions (3). Go to max/no flap by holding the switch down/up for 1 second. Very intuitive to use and it integrated easily into my AF 4500 panel. The AF panel indicator is pretty small scale but is useful in my scan to just to note when flaps are deployed (like if I forget to raise them). Wired with a back-up overide switch in the event of unit malfunction.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466010#466010
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: battery charger vs power supply |
The difference is both voltage and current capacity. The battery definitely has
a greater current output capacity. The power supply might have a greater initial
voltage. But that voltage could drop if the load is too great. If the
power supply voltage drops below battery voltage, then the battery will supply
the load. If you elect to test the landing gear using battery only, make sure
that the battery is fully charged.
A power supply will not damage a battery or electronics provided that the polarity
is correct and the voltage is not too high, less than 14.5
Although a battery could be damaged if a charger with a voltage much greater than
13 is left connected for an extended period of time, i.e., more than 24 hours.
Smart chargers are available that automatically reduce the voltage to a maintenance
level once the battery is fully charged.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466011#466011
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z-17/ alternator wire protection |
On 2/11/2017 11:02 AM, user9253 wrote:
>
> Oops. Bob posted his reply while I was still composing mine. And my reply contradicts
his. So now I am confused. Why doesn't Z-13/8 or Z-17 have a fuse
protecting the dynamo AC output?
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
Hi Joe,
Any chance you're thinking about a regular field type alternator, and
the one being discussed is a dynamo?
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
It's a good thought, but how can it actually monitor *charge* current?
The alternator is going to supply what ever current is required to keep
the voltage at setpoint. Unless you know exactly how much current is
being used by all the other devices in the plane at every instant, you
can't tell how much is actually going into the battery. Only way to know
actual charge current would be to shut off every other electrical
consumer in the plane.
The best way to avoid lithium issues is to be confident that the battery
management system built into the battery is doing its job properly.
(Tough thing to actually *know*....)
Charlie
On 2/11/2017 11:08 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
> installing a loadmeter:
>
> If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
> charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery
> starts asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
>
> Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
>
> At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am
> leaning to installing one for the above stated reason.
>
> Ken
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>>
> wrote:
>
> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format.
>> The B&C install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the
>> current sensor. My question is, is it reasonable to connect my
>> existing anl with its 80 amp fuse and the anl from the stand by
>> source to a single load meter shunt with the output side
>> connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Except for
>> the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby
>> there are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an
>> additional load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand
>> buy would only be generating when the main alternator is offline
>> for what ever reason. The meter reads out XX.X amps and is
>> built into my EFIS. The EFIS has a connection for a hall effect
>> amp sensor but that would require two firewall penetrations from
>> the standby alternator B leed.
>> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my
>> question, but I would appreciate any input. TIA, Don
>
> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>
> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>
> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
> of failure.
>
> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
> */continued flight to airport of intended destination
> with a failed main alternator.
>
> /* In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
> going to place on the standby alternator by having
> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
> the battery.
>
> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
> risk-reduction.
>
> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
> my first choice of architectures whether or not
> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flap control suggestions |
I've been using TCW's Intellignet Flap Controller
<http://www.tcwtech.com/Installation%20instructions%20model%20IFC-10_rev1.1.pdf>
and have been happy with it. I use it with a switch where the up
position takes it all the way to reflex and each momentary touch of the
downs switch takes it from reflex to zero to first position down to full
down.
Regarding flap position; I decided to just look out the window and that
has worked well for me.
Bill
On 2/10/2017 3:51 AM, GTH wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> What would be your suggestion for a landing flap control box, module
> etc. ?
>
> My partners would prefer a system with a three or four positions
> lever/toggle directly commanding the flap position, like "retracted",
> "takeoff", "land" etc.
>
> Any ideas about a supplier, any feedback ?
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Flap control suggestions |
For comparison purposes only, you may wish to consider FAR 23.699:
Sec. 23.699 Wing flap position indicator.
There must be a wing flap position indicator for
(a) Flap installations with only the retracted and fully extended position, unless
(1) A direct operating mechanism provides a sense of feel and position (such as
when a mechanical linkage is employed); or
(2) The flap position is readily determined without seriously detracting from other
piloting duties under any flight condition, day or night; and
(b) Flap installation with intermediate flap positions if
(1) Any flap position other than retracted or fully extended is used to show compliance
with the performance requirements of this part; and
(2) The flap installation does not meet the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of
this section.
Both Cessna and Piper single engine aircraft intermediate flap settings so are
covered by (b)(1) above, so unless they meet (a)(1) (Piper aircraft and early
Cessnas with Johnson bar flap operation) they need position indicators.
http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part23-699-FAR.shtml
On 11Feb2017, at 2:24 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
At 02:51 AM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> What would be your suggestion for a landing flap control box, module etc. ?
How about a spring loaded, (retract)-OFF-(extend) switch?
The only time flap position indicator were required
was on aircraft where the airplane might become
unmanageable if flaps were extended too far for some
flight condition -AND- the flaps could not be directly
observed by the pilot.
I can't ever recall using a flaps position indicator
to drive flaps to a 'precise' position during any
phase a flight. A few dozen approach/landing
cycles would pretty well calibrate the stick-feel
for positioning flaps without bringing your eyes
inside the cockpit -or- visually confirming the
flap position.
Some models of Cessna were fitted with flaps that
could be extended to 40 degrees. There WERE situations
where the airplane would not sustain level flight
with fully extended flaps and we were taught to make a
final approach at 30 and not to go all the way until you were
committed to land.
A A/D against those airplanes restricted flap travel
to 30 degrees after too many pilots got into a bind
with too aggressive application of flaps.
But those are RARE and if your project is at risk for
such a condition, the kit manufacturer and/or owners
of said aircraft will certainly know about it.
Aside from those rare designs, the simple toggle switch
teamed with limit switches and perhaps some robust
SPDT relays is cheap, simple, and very low risk for
un-intended motion of flaps. I'm certain that you'll
discover that a flap position indicator is among the
least useful displays on the panel.
http://tinyurl.com/nhftedq
Bob . . .
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
The attached picture from a Dynon installation manual shows three common locations
where an ammeter shunt can be installed.
Location "A" is used to show battery charge and discharge current.
Location "B" is used to show alternator output current (load-meter).
Location "C" is used to show how much current the aircraft is using.
The shunt location is a matter of personal preference and has been the subject
of arguments. The important thing is for the pilot to understand the meaning
of the ammeter display. For instance, a pilot could misinterpret positive current
from a shunt in location "C" as normal, ignoring the low voltage and oblivious
to the fact that the alternator has stopped working.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466026#466026
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/ammeter_shunt_171.jpg
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Charlie, I guess I was thinking that if there was a catastrophic failure
that is going to eventually lead to battery meltdown, it would likely
manifest in pegging the alternator to maximum output. In my case that is
supposed to be 40 amps, while my maximum normal usage would be closer to 20
amps so I was thinking if I set an alarm for, say 25 amps, it might alert
me to impending disaster.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> It's a good thought, but how can it actually monitor *charge* current? Th
e
> alternator is going to supply what ever current is required to keep the
> voltage at setpoint. Unless you know exactly how much current is being us
ed
> by all the other devices in the plane at every instant, you can't tell ho
w
> much is actually going into the battery. Only way to know actual charge
> current would be to shut off every other electrical consumer in the plane
.
>
> The best way to avoid lithium issues is to be confident that the battery
> management system built into the battery is doing its job properly. (Toug
h
> thing to actually *know*....)
>
> Charlie
>
>
> On 2/11/2017 11:08 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
> installing a loadmeter:
>
> If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
> charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery start
s
> asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
>
> Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
>
> At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am leaning t
o
> installing one for the above stated reason.
>
> Ken
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>>
>> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The B&
C
>> install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
>> question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80 amp
>> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt w
ith
>> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Exc
ept
>> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby there
>> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
>> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
>> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. The
>> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS has
a
>> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two firew
all
>> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
>> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my question
,
>> but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>>
>>
>> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
>> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
>> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>>
>> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
>> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
>> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
>> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>>
>> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
>> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
>> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
>> of failure.
>>
>> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
>> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
>> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
>> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>>
>>
>>
>> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed mai
n
>> alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
>> going to place on the standby alternator by having
>> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
>> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
>> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
>> the battery.
>>
>> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
>> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
>> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
>> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
>> risk-reduction.
>>
>> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
>> my first choice of architectures whether or not
>> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Bob, thanks for your input. My "load" during daylight ops after the battery
is recharged from the start is roughly 13 to 15A. The load meter question
should have stated that it was just for "setup and test" to determine what
items can be operated while the 20A alternator is the power source.
What I need to know is, is it electrically safe to connect the two ANL
blocks to the input side of the shunt and the output side of the shunt to
the cold side of the starter contactor? At no time would there be output
from from both alternators simultaneosly.
Part of my decission to drop the E bus and go with the 20 A standby was
your recent responce to an individual asking about using the 20A standby.
You said something like "I would abandon the e bus and go with the Z12
setup".
On Feb 11, 2017 12:02, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a good thought, but how can it actually monitor *charge* current? Th
e
> alternator is going to supply what ever current is required to keep the
> voltage at setpoint. Unless you know exactly how much current is being us
ed
> by all the other devices in the plane at every instant, you can't tell ho
w
> much is actually going into the battery. Only way to know actual charge
> current would be to shut off every other electrical consumer in the plane
.
>
> The best way to avoid lithium issues is to be confident that the battery
> management system built into the battery is doing its job properly. (Toug
h
> thing to actually *know*....)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 2/11/2017 11:08 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
> installing a loadmeter:
>
> If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
> charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery start
s
> asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
>
> Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
>
> At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am leaning t
o
> installing one for the above stated reason.
>
> Ken
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>>
>> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The B&
C
>> install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
>> question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80 amp
>> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt w
ith
>> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Exc
ept
>> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby there
>> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
>> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
>> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. The
>> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS has
a
>> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two firew
all
>> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
>> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my question
,
>> but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>>
>>
>> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
>> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
>> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>>
>> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
>> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
>> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
>> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>>
>> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
>> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
>> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
>> of failure.
>>
>> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
>> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
>> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
>> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>>
>>
>>
>> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed mai
n
>> alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
>> going to place on the standby alternator by having
>> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
>> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
>> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
>> the battery.
>>
>> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
>> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
>> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
>> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
>> risk-reduction.
>>
>> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
>> my first choice of architectures whether or not
>> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Bob, thanks for your input. My "load" during daylight ops after the battery
is recharged from the start is roughly 13 to 15 A. I have had two SD8
failures and one E bus relay failure in 6 years of flight. I have trust
issues with the SD8 and have decided that I prefer the 20 A standby. I
recognize that I have probably used up a life time of SD8 failures but I am
still going with the 20A setup. The load meter question should have stated
that it was just for "setup and test"
On Feb 11, 2017 12:02, "Charlie England" <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's a good thought, but how can it actually monitor *charge* current? Th
e
> alternator is going to supply what ever current is required to keep the
> voltage at setpoint. Unless you know exactly how much current is being us
ed
> by all the other devices in the plane at every instant, you can't tell ho
w
> much is actually going into the battery. Only way to know actual charge
> current would be to shut off every other electrical consumer in the plane
.
>
> The best way to avoid lithium issues is to be confident that the battery
> management system built into the battery is doing its job properly. (Toug
h
> thing to actually *know*....)
>
> Charlie
>
> On 2/11/2017 11:08 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>
> I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
> installing a loadmeter:
>
> If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
> charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery start
s
> asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
>
> Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
>
> At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am leaning t
o
> installing one for the above stated reason.
>
> Ken
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>>
>> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The B&
C
>> install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
>> question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80 amp
>> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt w
ith
>> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Exc
ept
>> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby there
>> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
>> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
>> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. The
>> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS has
a
>> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two firew
all
>> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
>> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my question
,
>> but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>>
>>
>> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
>> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
>> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>>
>> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
>> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
>> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
>> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>>
>> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
>> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
>> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
>> of failure.
>>
>> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
>> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
>> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
>> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>>
>>
>>
>> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed mai
n
>> alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
>> going to place on the standby alternator by having
>> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
>> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
>> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
>> the battery.
>>
>> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
>> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
>> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
>> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
>> risk-reduction.
>>
>> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
>> my first choice of architectures whether or not
>> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Ah, yes; I see where you're going with it. You'd still need to set the
alarm point fairly high to avoid false positives in situations like after a
hard start with a partially charged battery, where the alt would try to max
out its output to recover the battery faster. Of course, if the BMS is
doing its job, that won't happen, I suppose.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> Charlie, I guess I was thinking that if there was a catastrophic failure
> that is going to eventually lead to battery meltdown, it would likely
> manifest in pegging the alternator to maximum output. In my case that is
> supposed to be 40 amps, while my maximum normal usage would be closer to
20
> amps so I was thinking if I set an alarm for, say 25 amps, it might alert
> me to impending disaster.
>
> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It's a good thought, but how can it actually monitor *charge* current?
>> The alternator is going to supply what ever current is required to keep
the
>> voltage at setpoint. Unless you know exactly how much current is being u
sed
>> by all the other devices in the plane at every instant, you can't tell h
ow
>> much is actually going into the battery. Only way to know actual charge
>> current would be to shut off every other electrical consumer in the plan
e.
>>
>> The best way to avoid lithium issues is to be confident that the battery
>> management system built into the battery is doing its job properly. (Tou
gh
>> thing to actually *know*....)
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>> On 2/11/2017 11:08 AM, Ken Ryan wrote:
>>
>> I would like to propose that there may be a good and valid use for
>> installing a loadmeter:
>>
>> If one is using a lithium battery and wants to monitor the amount of
>> charging current, so as to be alerted in the event that the battery star
ts
>> asking for an abnormal amount of charging current.
>>
>> Might this not help to avoid a battery meltdown?
>>
>> At first I was not planning on using a load meter, but now I am leaning
>> to installing one for the above stated reason.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 6:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>>>
>>> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The
>>> B&C install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current senso
r.
>>> My question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80
amp
>>> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt
with
>>> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Ex
cept
>>> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby ther
e
>>> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
>>> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
>>> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
>>> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. Th
e
>>> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS ha
s a
>>> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two fire
wall
>>> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
>>> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my
>>> question, but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
>>> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
>>> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>>>
>>> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
>>> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
>>> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
>>> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>>>
>>> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
>>> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
>>> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
>>> of failure.
>>>
>>> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
>>> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
>>> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
>>> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed
>>> main alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands
>>> you're
>>> going to place on the standby alternator by having
>>> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
>>> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
>>> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
>>> the battery.
>>>
>>> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
>>> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
>>> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
>>> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
>>> risk-reduction.
>>>
>>> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
>>> my first choice of architectures whether or not
>>> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
I just noticed that I mislabeled the starter contactor connection. It
would be the hot side. The Z14 diagram would only have the loadmeter shunt
for the standby alternater removed, the fusible link replaced by an ANL and
the shunt placed between the two ANL outputs and the hot side of the
starter contacter. This is very close to the original diagram with only one
load meter shunt.
Is this acceptable?
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:02 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:03 PM 2/10/2017, you wrote:
>
> I am considering converting my Z18-8 equipped RV to a Z12 format. The B&C
> install kit includes an ANL mount and "fuse" plus the current sensor. My
> question is, is it reasonable to connect my existing anl with its 80 amp
> fuse and the anl from the stand by source to a single load meter shunt wi
th
> the output side connected to the cold side of the starter contactor? Exce
pt
> for the addition of the second ANL and the B leed from the standby there
> are no other changes to this part of my proposed system.
> My reason for asking is that it will be difficult to add an additional
> load meter to my panel. I am thinking that the stand buy would only be
> generating when the main alternator is offline for what ever reason. The
> meter reads out=C3=82 XX.X amps and is built into my EFIS. The EFIS has
a
> connection for a hall effect amp sensor but that would require two firewa
ll
> penetrations from the standby alternator B leed.
> I am not sure that I have given enough information to answer my question,
> but I would appreciate any input.=C3=82 TIA, Don
>
>
> I don't thing you want to do this. Morphing from
> Z-13/8 to Z-12 negates the multi-layered system
> architecture that makes Z-13 so robust.
>
> A loadmeter, like a flaps position indicator is
> near the bottom of the heap for in-flight utility.
> The loadmeter is more of a trouble-shooting tool
> than a source of data for airborne operations.
>
> The VOLTMETER teamed with active notification of
> low voltage are the most powerful tools for
> electrical system monitoring and mitigation
> of failure.
>
> In flight, a loadmeter only displays things you
> already KNOW. You do a load analysis to establish
> the equipment that can be supported in various phases
> of flight. With z-13/8, one of those phases is
>
>
> *continued flight to airport of intended destination with a failed main
> alternator. * In this condition, you already KNOW what demands you're
> going to place on the standby alternator by having
> developed the list of "Plan-X" equipment. Your voltmeter
> will confirm that the alternator is maintaining the
> e-bus at some level above that which discharges
> the battery.
>
> For the majority of my deliberations in crafting wire books
> for OBAM aviation projects, the loadmeter was the
> 'fox tail flying from the tip of your antenna' . . .
> looks cool but has no value as a tool for
> risk-reduction.
>
> If I were building an airplane, Z-13/8 would be
> my first choice of architectures whether or not
> loadmeter(s) were on the list of installed accessories.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Icom junction box |
Someone was asking on this forum about issues with the Icom antenna junction
box installed in their plane. I put in one of those in between my SL-30
Nav/Com and my belly antenna on the RV-6A. I've had a lot of scratchy and
not so great transmissions/reception on that Radio. I didn't think that
maybe if would be that junction box. I like the idea because it makes it
easy to plug in my hand held and use my outside antenna. But I've never had
to do that so if the junction box is causing crappy tx/Rx on that radio I'll
take it out of the loop. I know the SL-30 is a great radio so this has
puzzled me since I finished the RV. Did whomever it was figure out whether
the Icom junction box was causing radio Tx/Rx problems or not? Does the
junction box need to be removed from the loop or is there some I can do to
fix it?
Thanks
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Tarpon Sprgs, FL
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Ken,
If I start the engine with the alternator off and if I forget to turn it
on for a while, then my EarthX900 will draw almost 65 amps from a 60 amp
Plane Power for a short period of time. I believe this behavior is
normal and the battery management system doesn't complain. The
temperature strips that I attached directly to the battery show less
than 160 degrees f and I fly summers in AZ.
My standard load is either 8 or 15 amps.
john
On 2/11/2017 3:12 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Charlie, I guess I was thinking that if there was a catastrophic
> failure that is going to eventually lead to battery meltdown, it would
> likely manifest in pegging the alternator to maximum output. In my
> case that is supposed to be 40 amps, while my maximum normal usage
> would be closer to 20 amps so I was thinking if I set an alarm for,
> say 25 amps, it might alert me to impending disaster.
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Don, is this something like what you have in mind? I think it is feasible.
The ANL 60 could be moved to the other side of the shunt. Then the shunt would
not have short circuit protection.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466040#466040
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/2_alt__1_shunt_994.jpg
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Z12 Question |
Joe,
That is exactly what I was intending. The Alternators are Main= 60A
standby A. The current setup has an 80A ANL in the main "b" leed before
the shunt. I was thinking of using a 30A ANL in the b leed of the standby.
Both ANL's would then connect to the shunt input and the shunt output wound
connect to the starter contactor.
On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 7:06 PM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Don, is this something like what you have in mind? I think it is feasible.
> The ANL 60 could be moved to the other side of the shunt. Then the shunt
> would not have short circuit protection.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466040#466040
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/2_alt__1_shunt_994.jpg
>
>
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|