---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/17/17: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:47 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Stuart Hutchison) 2. 03:16 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (user9253) 3. 04:58 AM - Golf Cart Batteries (Laz) 4. 05:50 AM - Re: Golf Cart Batteries (Charlie England) 5. 05:58 AM - flight simulator for wii game console? (Charlie England) 6. 06:26 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Harley Dixon) 7. 06:36 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Kent or Jackie Ashton) 8. 07:04 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (neal.george@gmail.com) 9. 07:10 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Kelly McMullen) 10. 07:12 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (John's Mail) 11. 07:33 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Rene) 12. 07:33 AM - Re: Red/Blue PIDG tool (johnbright) 13. 07:33 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Tim Olson) 14. 07:36 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Harley Dixon) 15. 07:38 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (William Hunter) 16. 07:40 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Art Zemon) 17. 07:54 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Neal George) 18. 08:13 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Ken Ryan) 19. 08:15 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (William Hunter) 20. 08:40 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Art Zemon) 21. 09:00 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Charlie England) 22. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (don van santen) 23. 09:09 AM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Stein Bruch) 24. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (John's Mail) 25. 09:16 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Bill Watson) 26. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Robert McCallum) 27. 11:01 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Charlie England) 28. 11:28 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Harley Dixon) 29. 11:41 AM - Re: flight simulator for wii game console? (Harley Dixon) 30. 12:07 PM - Remove from list (Kenneth Johnson) 31. 12:35 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 32. 12:58 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 33. 01:00 PM - Re: Remove from list (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 34. 02:02 PM - list function; was: flight simulator for wii game console? (Charlie England) 35. 02:09 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Kent or Jackie Ashton) 36. 02:14 PM - Re: list function; was: flight simulator for wii game console? (don van santen) 37. 02:30 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 38. 02:42 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Charlie England) 39. 04:49 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Kent or Jackie Ashton) 40. 04:55 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Stuart Hutchison) 41. 11:49 PM - Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles (Peter Pengilly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:47:42 AM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Vibration mostly Bill. Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration. They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant. Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer. SteinAir always stock waxed lacing, have a great range of products and are dedicated to our kit builder community, so they=99re my first go to option. Cheers, Stu > On 17 Feb 2017, at 18:22, William Hunter wrote: > > Hi All. <> > > I knew I could count on you (all)THANKS for the info!!! > > So why are tie wraps solike =9Cbad practice=9D? If I heard that anything was =9Cbad=9D back in high school that is exactly the direction where I would have gonetie wraps still seem like a good idea to me. > > I can see that =9CAdel clamps=9D are far superior in designand weightand the stainless steel part can be fire resistant (wellexcept for the rubber padding material). My guess is that the rubber would burn more hotter than nylonbeca use rubber makes nice fuel for rocket motors: > > http://www.nbcnews.com/id/5226424/ns/technology_and_science-space/t/histor ic-rocket-powered-rubber-fuel/#.WKahpvkrJRY > > So why are the ancient technology waxed fabric lace ribbon so great and =9Cgood practice=9D?!?!? > > My daughters would be most happy to use little fabric ribbons to do the hair on their Barbie dollsand I can see the benefit of the =9Canti-fungal=9D designhoweverthe temperature range of -67=C2=B0F to + 250=C2=B0F seemswell kinda lame (code for =9Cbad practice=9D) in airplane equipment > > IREALLYlike the X-Treme Tape TPE-XR1510ZLB Silicone Rubber Self Fusing tapeseems like the ultimate new-fangled and high tech solutionandthe =9Cwill not melt up to 260=C2=B0C (500=C2=B0F)=9Dand the =9CRemains flexible to -50=C2=B0C (-60=C2=B0F)=9Dand the =9CTens ile strength of 700+PSI=9Dand the =9CInsulates to 400 volts/mil=9D sounds like silicon is a REALLY good solutionto mealmost even =9Cbetter than best practice=9Djust say-in > > So anyhoowould the DAR be happy with the new-fangled silicon tape?!?!? > > SeriouslyI really do not care about the DARI simply what the =9Cbest practice=9D for me and my airplaneso is the new-fangled silicon a good deal? > > Additionallydo I really need to cut away ALL of the tie wraps I just lovingly tied to my wire bundles!?!?! > > THANKS AGAIN!!! > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Stein Bruch > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 3:54 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles > > We sell that as well, but $5 less per roll. > > Cheers, > Stein > > > > > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 4:59 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles > > At 04:02 PM 2/16/2017, you wrote: > >> Waxed =C3=82 lacing cord.=C3=82 >> >> https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4041&utm_ source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=4041&gclid=CK2XsozPldICF QQvaQodI14Nfg > This is good stuff too . . . and it IS waxed . . . > a little easier to use. > > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:16:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: "user9253" I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:02 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Golf Cart Batteries From: "Laz" I have a friend who had a question on charging Golf Cart Batteries. ( I do not play golf). Anny help would be greatly appreciated. here is is question on battery charging: Golf Cart System- 6 8V batteries hooked up in series to generate 48V. Problem- the cart hadn't been used in 3-4 months. When I checked it, the water levels were low, so I filled all to proper levels with distilled water. Golf cart had no power. Hooked up the 48V DPI charger, and it read "Detection Problem", and would not charge. Possible Fix: Doing some research I learned this charger has cut outs if the total battery charge is below 40V. Some other research indicated I could charge the individual units, and if I got them charged enough- the 48V charger may work. I have a charger for automobile 6 & 12V batteries, 2 AMP charge. In trying to use the 6V setting, I noted the two outside batteries (#1 and #6) were dead. The other 4 batteries all showed a fair to good charge on the 6V meter stetting. I charged the #1 and #6 batteries to just over a 75% reading. Then hooked up the 48V charger, and after it ran some checks, it finally began charging. After several hours it shows a full charge on the system. Cart seems to have its normal power level. Questions- Did I do any damage to the batteries? Will these batteries hold a reasonable charge? Is there any reason the #1 & #6 batteries were dead, and the other 4 seemed to have held some level of charge? Should I reposition the #1 and # 6 batteries in the series, maybe make them the #3 & #4 units? In time when I replace the entire 6 8V battery set, can I replace them with 4 12V batteries? What's the trade off? What specification like amps do I have to consider? What's the possibility the DPI 48V charger will work with 4 12V batteries? Before moving ahead, I contact DPI directly and seek their input. Any other items I should have asked about? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466329#466329 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:19 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Golf Cart Batteries On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Laz wrote: > > I have a friend who had a question on charging Golf Cart Batteries. ( I > do not play golf). Anny help would be greatly appreciated. > > here is is question on battery charging: > Golf Cart System- 6 8V batteries hooked up in series to generate 48V. > > Problem- the cart hadn't been used in 3-4 months. When I checked it, the > water levels were low, so I filled all to proper levels with distilled > water. Golf cart had no power. Hooked up the 48V DPI charger, and it read > "Detection Problem", and would not charge. > > Possible Fix: Doing some research I learned this charger has cut outs if > the total battery charge is below 40V. Some other research indicated I > could charge the individual units, and if I got them charged enough- the > 48V charger may work. > I have a charger for automobile 6 & 12V batteries, 2 AMP charge. In > trying to use the 6V setting, I noted the two outside batteries (#1 and #6) > were dead. The other 4 batteries all showed a fair to good charge on the > 6V meter stetting. I charged the #1 and #6 batteries to just over a 75% > reading. Then hooked up the 48V charger, and after it ran some checks, it > finally began charging. After several hours it shows a full charge on the > system. Cart seems to have its normal power level. > > Questions- Did I do any damage to the batteries? > Will these batteries hold a reasonable charge? > Is there any reason the #1 & #6 batteries were dead, and > the other 4 seemed to have held some level of charge? > Should I reposition the #1 and # 6 batteries in the > series, maybe make them the #3 & #4 units? > In time when I replace the entire 6 8V battery set, can I > replace them with > 4 12V batteries? What's the trade off? What > specification like amps do I have to consider? > What's the possibility the DPI 48V charger will work with > 4 12V batteries? > Before moving ahead, I contact DPI directly and seek > their input. > Any other items I should have asked about? > Charging individual batteries with the correct voltage charger didn't hurt them Possibly. He'll know soon enough. :-) Not uncommon for some, but not all batteries in a series string to go bad before the others. Doubt it would make much difference, but wouldn't hurt anything (except maybe your back...). Not a good idea to go with 12 V, unless you can find 12 V batteries with the same ampere-hour rating as the 8 V models (unlikely, and they wouldn't fit in the same physical space). It would 'work', but you'd likely lose total battery energy (reduced range and probably power, as well) to operate the golf cart (see above). You can sometimes 'recover' a weak battery by using a desulfator. https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&q=battery+desulfator&oq=battery+desulfator&gs_l=serp.3..0i67k1j0i7i30k1j0i67k1j0i7i30k1j0j0i7i30k1l3j0j0i67k1.36499.37780.0.38852.8.8.0.0.0.0.131.733.6j2.8.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.8.733.E9SDc7NGkcQ When I was a kid (looong time ago), My dad used to sell a product called VX6 battery rejuvenator. He really believed in the stuff, and the company would guarantee that if it didn't bring a battery back to life, they'd refund your money. I certainly don't know the chemistry behind it, but I did see multiple batteries get their useful life extended. Bear in mind that this was long before consumers had heard the term 'desulfator', so who knows; maybe a desulfation session would have brought back those same batteries. Anyway, it's something you can throw into the google to see if it's worth a shot before replacing the batteries. Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:03 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at the top of the stall, etc). I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it past the female parental unit, anyway. Any ideas? Thanks, Charlie ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:13 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? From: Harley Dixon From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. Why not get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever you have)? My first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if you want the best (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar Research's X-Plane. X-Plane is what many of here use...and with the right setup (and fee) can be used to log simulator time for FAA requirements! You can try out a free demo from their website http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ Harley On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: > Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game > console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of > their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get > points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the > island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be > desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at the > top of the stall, etc). > > I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the > wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games > probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it > past the female parental unit, anyway. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Charlie -- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:44 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Kent or Jackie Ashton > On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison wrote: > Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration. Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle. > They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, This is likely an old wives tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube. > making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant. Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wrap a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves room in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way out and hinder access. > Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer. Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, its a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands. -Kent ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:45 AM PST US From: neal.george@gmail.com Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage. Neal George A&P/IA Sent from my iPhone > >> They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, > > This is likely an old wives tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Kelly McMullen On 2/17/2017 7:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > > >> On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison wrote: >> Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite abrasive exposed to vibration. > > Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered wire bundle. Perhaps you haven't worked on planes with time in service with tie-wraps. I see cuts, but mostly from over-tightening. >> They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, > > This is likely an old wives tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube. Not old tail. Very real hazard. Generally occurs when tie-wrap gets oil and or dust under it. Promotes rapid and serious wear on engine mount. >> making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape first, but that's less elegant. > > Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wrap a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves room in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way out and hinder access. Yes, silicone rescue tape is good. >> Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over longer lengths in one go if you prefer. > > Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, its a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. > > The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands. > > -Kent Kelly A&P/IA EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:16 AM PST US From: "John's Mail" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Buy a small right angle cutter that cuts the nylon tie flush with the ratchet and there are no sharp ends. Cutter available at most electrical supply shops and only 6 inches or smaller. John Greaves Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 17, 2017, at 3:14 AM, user9253 wrote: > > > I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:44 AM PST US From: "Rene" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles I have used them in a couple of places on my motor mount. I wrap the mount with fusion tape and then use the tie. The fusion tape molds to what I am holding and also grabs the tie. Works great and is more effective than the adel clamps. It does not work as a standoff and thus is not appropriate for everything. I have thought about making a little standoff that would go under the tape (between layers), but have not tried. Rene' 801-721-6080 -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of neal.george@gmail.com Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 7:57 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage. Neal George A&P/IA Sent from my iPhone > >> They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, > > This is likely an old wives' tail. I have never observed a tie-wrap even rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Red/Blue PIDG tool From: "johnbright" The tool from ebay, fabersurplus, came with this sticker. https://tinyurl.com/zvwp9dn -------- John Bright, RV-6A, at Finish Kit Continental Titan IOX-360, 8.5:1, vertical sump, SDSEFI EM-5, injectors in heads. Aeroelectric Z-12. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466341#466341 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Tim Olson I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee it won't get worn into. As a side note, I've had spark plug wires chafe thru the colored silicone cover just by having a little slop in the cushion clamps where they pass thru. Nothing that fully compromise the wire, but the wires rubbed on eachother enough to see bare braid. So now when I run spark plug wires thru adel clamps, I inject RTV into the clamp as well, to prevent any movement of the wire. Tim On 2/17/2017 8:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: > > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage. > > Neal George > A&P/IA > Sent from my iPhone > >> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:41 AM PST US From: Harley Dixon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. Why not get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever you have)? My first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if you want the best (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar Research's X-Plane. X-Plane is what many of here use...and with the right setup (and fee) can be used to log simulator time for FAA requirements! You can try out a free demo from their website http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ Harley On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: > Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game > console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of > their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get > points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the > island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be > desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at the > top of the stall, etc). > > I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the > wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games > probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it > past the female parental unit, anyway. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Charlie -- ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:58 AM PST US From: William Hunter Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Wow... good information. You guys are a wealth of experience. THANKS AGAIN!!! Bill Hunter On Feb 17, 2017 07:14, "Kelly McMullen" wrote: > kellym@aviating.com> > > > On 2/17/2017 7:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > >> kjashton@vnet.net> >> >> >> On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison < >>> stuart@stuarthutchison.com.au> wrote: >>> Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are quite >>> abrasive exposed to vibration. >>> >> >> Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps >> everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a tefzel-covered w ire >> bundle. >> > Perhaps you haven't worked on planes with time in service with tie-wraps. > I see cuts, but mostly from over-tightening. > > They are also known to cut into chrome-moly steel engine mounts, >>> >> >> This is likely an old wives=99 tail. I have never observed a tie- wrap even >> rubbing the paint off an engine mount tube. >> > Not old tail. Very real hazard. Generally occurs when tie-wrap gets oil > and or dust under it. Promotes rapid and serious wear on engine mount. > > > making Adel (P) clamps on engine mounts more or less essential unless >>> everything you tie is protected with self-amalgamating silicon tape fir st, >>> but that's less elegant. >>> >> >> Sometimes Adel clamps can be avoided. For wires on engine mounts, I wra p >> a turn of silicone baffle seal around the wire bundle and tie-wrap it to >> the engine mount. Simple, light, easy to do and undo. It also saves ro om >> in a crowded area because double Adel clamps (to clamp to a tube) stick way >> out and hinder access. >> > Yes, silicone rescue tape is good. > >> Waxed cotton lacing is cheap, broad (stress spreading), easy to tie >>> (sticks to itself), equally neat as tie wraps and can be laced over lon ger >>> lengths in one go if you prefer. >>> >> >> Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and >> when you have to add a new wire, it=99s a double P.I.A. Lacing lo oks nice on >> a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. >> >> The downside of tie-wraps is that they cut your hands. >> >> -Kent >> > Kelly > A&P/IA > EAA Tech Counselor =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:40:47 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and whe n > you have to add a new wire, it=99s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks ni ce on a > bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire on my blog. If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I would just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing. The lace is so light weight, and takes up so little space, that there is not much reason to remove it. OTOH, before I installed the wire bundles in my plane, I did remove some lacing just to keep things neat. It was kind of tedious but not difficult at all. I used my mustache scissors because the pointy ends slipped right under the lacing. -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:29 AM PST US From: Neal George Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Some clarification is probably warranted. Welding is the preferred method of attaching things to structural tube. Adel clamps are acceptable when structure is already complete/finished/in-service. When using Adel clamps on structural tube, one must ensure that they are TIGHT on the tube. If you can wiggle it, it will wiggle in service. If it is loose enough to wiggle, dirt and other abrasives will work their way under the cushion. Dirt and oil make a dandy lapping compound... As the rubber cushion wears and/or dried out over time, it should be replaced. Hard, cracked, dried out Adel clamp cushions can't function as designed and are therefore unserviceable. Unserviceable or marginally serviceable parts often cause the damage they are intended to prevent. Neal George A&P/IA Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 17, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Tim Olson wrote: > > > I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat > right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine > mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers > of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee > it won't get worn into. > > Tim > >> neal.george@cmg.aero >> >> Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage. >> >> Neal George >> A&P/IA >> Sent from my iPhone ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:15 AM PST US From: Ken Ryan Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge. On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 wrote: > > I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to > keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file > or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:34 AM PST US From: William Hunter Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Art, After watching your video I said to myself "Whoa I could do that" Bill Hunter On Feb 17, 2017 07:49, "Art Zemon" wrote: > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > wrote: > >> Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and >> when you have to add a new wire, it=99s a double P.I.A. Lacing lo oks nice on >> a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. > > > I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. > Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire > on my blog. > > If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I woul d > just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing .. > The lace is so light weight, and takes up so little space, that there is > not much reason to remove it. OTOH, before I installed the wire bundles i n > my plane, I did remove some lacing just to keep things neat. It was kind of > tedious but not difficult at all. I used my mustache scissors because the > pointy ends slipped right under the lacing. > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:53 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Bill, :-) That is the reaction that I hope people will have when they watch the video. Lacing wire is really easy. I don't know why it got such a bad reputation. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 10:13 AM, William Hunter wrote: > Art, > > After watching your video I said to myself "Whoa I could do that" > > Bill Hunter > > > On Feb 17, 2017 07:49, "Art Zemon" wrote: > >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > > wrote: >> >>> Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and >>> when you have to add a new wire, it=99s a double P.I.A. Lacing l ooks nice on >>> a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. >> >> >> >> I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. >> Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire >> on my blog .. >> > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:25 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good enough. This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more interest; not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & often used platform. I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. Thanks for the tip! Charlie On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: > From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight > simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. Why not > get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever you have)? My > first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if you want the best > (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar Research's X-Plane. X-Plane > is what many of here use...and with the right setup (and fee) can be used > to log simulator time for FAA requirements! You can try out a free demo > from their website > http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ > > Harley > > > On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game console? > My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of their games > that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get points for flying > through 'points of interest' hidden around the island. Of course, the > actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be desired (pulling up in a stall > results in the plane 'crashing' at the top of the stall, etc). > > I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the wii, > with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games probably won't > interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it past the female > parental unit, anyway. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > -- > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:48 AM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles I use zip ties very rarely. For the few that I have I bought a set of zip tie pullers. I found them on E Bay from the vender who buys used tools from retirering Boeing employees. The pullers are adjustable for tension and the finished zip tie is perfectly smooth. IIRC they were roughly 15 bucks each. On Feb 17, 2017 08:19, "Ken Ryan" wrote: > I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as > possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of > cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge. > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 wrote: > >> >> I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to >> keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file >> or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =================================== >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ >> Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> =================================== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> =================================== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> =================================== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> =================================== >> >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:27 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Yep =93 I=99ll guarantee you a competent technician (even inside the tail of a 747) can lace a long run of wires faster than anyone can zip tie them! It=99s also a fact that zip ties can, do and will eat right into an engine mount. Anyone who=99s worked on airplanes any length of time will have seen it (more than once). It=99s not some nebulous wives taileven if you wish it so. Lastly, if zip ties are installed correctly, they won=99t =9Ccut your hands=9D at all.makes me wonder how they=99re being installed that they cut up your hands?! Zip ties are fine and we use them extensively, but blanket statements like some of those made previous are just not credible or accurate. Cheers, Stein From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Art Zemon Sent: Friday, February 17, 2017 9:37 AM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > wrote: Agree but tying laces in a tight area over a long run is a P.I.A. and when you have to add a new wire, it=99s a double P.I.A. Lacing looks nice on a bench-wired panel but it is horse-and-buggy technology. I have to disagree, Kent. Lacing a long length is very quick and easy. Take a look at my video demonstration, How to Lace Wire on my blog. If I had an installation in place and needed to add one more wire, I would just lace it to the existing bundle, without removing the existing lacing. The lace is so light weight, and takes up so little space, that there is not much reason to remove it. OTOH, before I installed the wire bundles in my plane, I did remove some lacing just to keep things neat. It was kind of tedious but not difficult at all. I used my mustache scissors because the pointy ends slipped right under the lacing. -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:53 AM PST US From: "John's Mail" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles The side cutter I recommended has a flat cutting surface on the outside, not a chisel, so you end up with a flush surface at the ratchet. Finger nail cu tter works as well and would more easily reach into tight spaces. John Greaves Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 17, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Ken Ryan wrote: > > I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as possib le, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of cutting. I f I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge. > >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 wrote: >> >> I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to k eep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========================= >> - >> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics. com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List >> ========================= >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========================= >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========================= >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========================= >> >> >> > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:08 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Bill Watson You will find if use a pair of these cable tie cutters , there will not be a sharp cut end remaining. I too follow the practice of not using tie wraps but using lacing cord instead. Silicon tape in certain situations. On 2/17/2017 6:14 AM, user9253 wrote: > > I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. > > -------- > Joe Gores --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:25 AM PST US From: Robert McCallum Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: Ken Ryan > Date: February 17, 2017 at 11:09 AM > > I use a good fingernail trimmer to trim the pull ties as closely as > possible, and 100% of the time the result is a smooth trim, no danger of > cutting. If I use my side cutters, the result is a razor like edge. > Because you are using "side cutters" NOT "flush cutters" which leave a perfectly smooth flush cut. OTOH the "proper tensioning/cutting tool also leaves a perfectly flush cut without any cut/scratch danger. The only real drawbacks to the correct tool are expense and accessibility as they tend to be a little bulky for tight areas. Bob McC > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 2:14 AM, user9253 < fransew@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > fransew@gmail.com > > > > > I was taught that tie wraps should not be used to support wires, > > only to keep a wire bundle neat between supports. After cutting tie wraps, a > > file or sandpaper will smooth the sharp cut end to prevent future injury. > > > > -------- > > Joe Gores > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=466326#466326 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== ============================== = > > - > > Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" > > target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ Navigator?AeroElectric-List > > ==== ============================== = > > FORUMS - > > eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ==== ============================== = > > WIKI - > > errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ==== ============================== = > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ > > contribution > > ==== ============================== = > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? From: Charlie England Retrying; the Matronics list server bounced the 1st attempt. Apparently, an embedded pic can go through the server once, but not twice. Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good enough. This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more interest; not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & often used platform. I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. Thanks for the tip! Charlie On 2/17/2017 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: > From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight > simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. > Why not get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever > you have)? My first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if > you want the best (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar > Research's X-Plane. X-Plane is what many of here use...and with the > right setup (and fee) can be used to log simulator time for FAA > requirements! You can try out a free demo from their website > http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ > > Harley > > > On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game >> console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of >> their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get >> points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the >> island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be >> desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at the >> top of the stall, etc). >> >> I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the >> wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games >> probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it >> past the female parental unit, anyway. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie > > -- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? From: Harley Dixon What happened was after I sent the message WITH the picture, I got an error message from Matronics that said it couldn't post the message with the image...so, I removed the image and resent it. A few seconds later, BOTH messages came through. I guess the error message was wrong! Harley On 2/17/2017 2:01 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Retrying; the Matronics list server bounced the 1st attempt. > Apparently, an embedded pic can go through the server once, but not > twice. > > Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good > enough. > > This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more > interest; > not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc > into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more > likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they > must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc > > The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty > well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming > parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more > 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & > often > used platform. > > I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever > make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. > Thanks > for the tip! > > Charlie > > > On 2/17/2017 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: >> From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight >> simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. >> Why not get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever >> you have)? My first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if >> you want the best (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar >> Research's X-Plane. X-Plane is what many of here use...and with the >> right setup (and fee) can be used to log simulator time for FAA >> requirements! You can try out a free demo from their website >> http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ >> >> Harley >> >> >> >> On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>> Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game >>> console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of >>> their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get >>> points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the >>> island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be >>> desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at >>> the top of the stall, etc). >>> >>> I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the >>> wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games >>> probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it >>> past the female parental unit, anyway. >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Charlie >> >> -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? From: Harley Dixon Charlie... Looks like both of your messages came through as well. One with the picture of my charming face, and the other without. I assume you got the same error I did, so you resent it, and yet they both got posted,just as mine did! Harley On 2/17/2017 2:01 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > Retrying; the Matronics list server bounced the 1st attempt. > Apparently, an embedded pic can go through the server once, but not > twice. > > Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good > enough. > > This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more > interest; > not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc > into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more > likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they > must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc > > The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty > well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming > parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more > 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & > often > used platform. > > I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever > make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. > Thanks > for the tip! > > Charlie > > > On 2/17/2017 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: >> From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight >> simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. >> Why not get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever >> you have)? My first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if >> you want the best (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar >> Research's X-Plane. X-Plane is what many of here use...and with the >> right setup (and fee) can be used to log simulator time for FAA >> requirements! You can try out a free demo from their website >> http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ >> >> Harley >> >> >> >> On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: >>> Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game >>> console? My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of >>> their games that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get >>> points for flying through 'points of interest' hidden around the >>> island. Of course, the actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be >>> desired (pulling up in a stall results in the plane 'crashing' at >>> the top of the stall, etc). >>> >>> I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the >>> wii, with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games >>> probably won't interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it >>> past the female parental unit, anyway. >>> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Charlie >> >> -- > > -- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:46 PM PST US From: Kenneth Johnson Subject: AeroElectric-List: Remove from list I have appreciated the help and information provided during the past 15 yea rs.=C2- I was able to finish a Zenith CH801 in May last year.=C2- Unfor tunately, the plane stalled and was destroyed in November.=C2- At this po int I will not rebuild.=C2- Please remove me from the list.=C2- Thanks, again, for all the elp over the years.Ken Johnson ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:35:33 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles At 08:34 AM 2/17/2017, you wrote: > > > > > On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:45 AM, Stuart Hutchison > wrote: > > Typical nylon tie wraps have quite sharp edges that cut and are > quite abrasive exposed to vibration. > >Maybe but I have wired or rewired three airplanes, use tie-wraps >everywhere and never observed a tie wrap cutting into a >tefzel-covered wire bundle That's not the worry. The MATERIAL from which the tie wrap is made is critical. I have tie wraps from my dad's old inventory that you can break the buckles off with your fingers. Try to tie them around something with any vigor and they break. There are plastics and then there are PLASTICS. Some do not demonstrate good service lives exposed to hydrocarbon vapor, heat cycles, ozone, uv, etc. Tie wraps from known sources (like ULINE and many others) fabricated from 6-6 Nylon and better yet, tailored for "outdoor service" or "UV resistant" (usually black or dark green in color) are fine for your airplane. I don't KNOW that Harbor Freight stuff is 'bad' but confidence in their labeling is not high compared to other, reasonably prices sources. I've got some H.F. ties under the hood of my truck that have been there for years and doing fine . . . so THAT batch was Okay. If you're tying up something not likely to be looked at for a very long time and/or hard to reach, just spend a little extra $time$ acquiring a low risk product. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:58:17 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles At 09:27 AM 2/17/2017, you wrote: > >I've seen it many times too. A tie wrap that vibrates will eat >right into metal...even steel. Anything that goes on an engine >mount needs to have a cushion clamp or something like layers >of silicone tape wrapped around it...something to guarantee >it won't get worn into. This is true of ANY constriction around structure where grit-bearing contaminants can get in. I blew out a brake line on my '57 chevy where a power steering hose, covered in oily road grit had rubbed a thin spot in the steel line. This is NOT unique to tie wraps. This is why the M21919 (Adel) clamps should be sized to grab vulnerable structures . . . to immobilize the clamp on the at-risk surface -AND- prevent the ingress of contaminants. One of the images in my wire tying comic book http://tinyurl.com/z6qem2v shows a protective wrap on the at-risk surfaces before the wrap goes on. A buffer that is important whether the retainer is string, tie-wrap, or aluminum band of an Adel clamp. Tie wraps installed with your needle nose plies and hand-forces will not be antagonistic to wires. Tie wrap guns set for too much tension are the main culprit. Using some of the knot tying techniques and applying Hulk Hogan make-up forces can make your string ties just as antagonistic. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:15 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Remove from list At 02:03 PM 2/17/2017, you wrote: >I have appreciated the help and information provided during the past >15 years. I was able to finish a Zenith CH801 in May last >year. Unfortunately, the plane stalled and was destroyed in >November. At this point I will not rebuild. Please remove me from >the list. Thanks, again, for all the elp over the years. >Ken Johnson Sorry to hear about your airplane. I hope no one was seriously hurt. You can remove yourself from the list at http://Matronics.com/subscribe If we can be of service in the future, you know where to find us . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:02:19 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: list function; was: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? I've seen it happen before, where someone has attached an image (schematic, etc) and if I hit 'reply' & fail to delete the 'quoted' image, I'll get the error message. I always figured that the list software was smart enough to detect the image within the quoted text in a reply, & refused it. On a somewhat related subject, I no longer see my own posts to any of the Matronics lists, like I do with some other email lists. (I use email delivery; not the forum.) So I don't know whether my post shows up to the list, unless someone replies to my post. Is this true for everyone else? Charlie On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Harley Dixon wrote: > Charlie... > > Looks like both of your messages came through as well. One with the > picture of my charming face, and the other without. I assume you got the > same error I did, so you resent it, and yet they both got posted,just as > mine did! > > Harley > > On 2/17/2017 2:01 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > > Retrying; the Matronics list server bounced the 1st attempt. Apparently, > an embedded pic can go through the server once, but not twice. > > Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good > enough. > > This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more > interest; > not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc > into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more > likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they > must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc > > The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty > well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming > parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more > 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & often > used platform. > > I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever > make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. Thanks > for the tip! > > Charlie > > > On 2/17/2017 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: > > From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight > simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. Why not > get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever you have)? My > first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if you want the best > (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar Research's X-Plane. X-Plane > is what many of here use...and with the right setup (and fee) can be used > to log simulator time for FAA requirements! You can try out a free demo > from their website > http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ > > Harley > > > On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: > > Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game console? > My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of their games > that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get points for flying > through 'points of interest' hidden around the island. Of course, the > actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be desired (pulling up in a stall > results in the plane 'crashing' at the top of the stall, etc). > > I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the wii, > with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games probably won't > interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it past the female > parental unit, anyway. > > Any ideas? > > Thanks, > > Charlie > > > -- > > > -- > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:09:37 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Kent or Jackie Ashton Id appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of zip tie engine mount tube wear does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture. I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose its possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine. -Kent Technical Counselor > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: > > > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:14:33 PM PST US From: don van santen Subject: Re: list function; was: AeroElectric-List: flight simulator for wii game console? It is true and irritating. On Feb 17, 2017 14:09, "Charlie England" wrote: > I've seen it happen before, where someone has attached an image > (schematic, etc) and if I hit 'reply' & fail to delete the 'quoted' image, > I'll get the error message. I always figured that the list software was > smart enough to detect the image within the quoted text in a reply, & > refused it. > > On a somewhat related subject, I no longer see my own posts to any of the > Matronics lists, like I do with some other email lists. (I use email > delivery; not the forum.) So I don't know whether my post shows up to the > list, unless someone replies to my post. Is this true for everyone else? > > Charlie > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 1:36 PM, Harley Dixon > wrote: > >> Charlie... >> >> Looks like both of your messages came through as well. One with the >> picture of my charming face, and the other without. I assume you got the >> same error I did, so you resent it, and yet they both got posted,just as >> mine did! >> >> Harley >> >> On 2/17/2017 2:01 PM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> >> >> Retrying; the Matronics list server bounced the 1st attempt. Apparently, >> an embedded pic can go through the server once, but not twice. >> >> Yeah, I know a pc based sim is 'better', but better is the enemy of good >> enough. >> >> This is for 12 & under age group, with the hope of inspiring more >> interest; >> not actual flight training. If it's extremely convenient to swap a disc >> into a game console that they're already playing on, they're much more >> likely to play with it than a full fledged flight training sim where they >> must set up a single-purpose controller, boot the computer, etc etc >> >> The option she (and I) have already played with actually handles pretty >> well, until you ask it for something that exceeds the programming >> parameters. It's a shame no one has ported a flight sim that's a bit more >> 'game oriented', to get kids interested in flight on an accessible & >> often >> used platform. >> >> I didn't know that x-plane could be used to log sim time. If I can ever >> make time to work on my instrument rating, I'll have to get a copy. >> Thanks >> for the tip! >> >> Charlie >> >> >> >> On 2/17/2017 8:21 AM, Harley Dixon wrote: >> >> From what I just researched, it looks like any of the Wii flight >> simulators are just simple games, and not anywhere near realistic. Why not >> get them something for the PC (or Apple computer ...whatever you have)? My >> first thought is Microsoft's Flight Simulator. But if you want the best >> (and it doesn't cost any more) get them Laminar Research's X-Plane. X-Plane >> is what many of here use...and with the right setup (and fee) can be used >> to log simulator time for FAA requirements! You can try out a free demo >> from their website >> http://www.x-plane.com/desktop/try-it/ >> >> Harley >> >> >> >> On 2/17/2017 8:55 AM, Charlie England wrote: >> >> Anyone know of a decent flight sim that will work on a wii game console? >> My 12 yr old granddaughter found an option buried in one of their games >> that lets you fly a seaplane around an island and get points for flying >> through 'points of interest' hidden around the island. Of course, the >> actual flight simulation leaves a bit to be desired (pulling up in a stall >> results in the plane 'crashing' at the top of the stall, etc). >> >> I'd like to get her and her sisters something that will work in the wii, >> with some realistic training potential. 'Combat' type games probably won't >> interest them much, and it's unlikely they'd make it past the female >> parental unit, anyway. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Charlie >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:30:57 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles At 04:06 PM 2/17/2017, you wrote: >Jackie Ashton > >I=99d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic >zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A >google images search of =9Czip tie engine mount >tube wear=9D does not show any images. Usually >something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture. > >I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred >hours in other canards where the zip ties have >left no mark on the engine mount paint. I >suppose it=99s possible but until someone >actually shows me an example, I will continue to >zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of >cushion over the wire. I would not consider >silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to >soft but if it works for others, fine. Think about the process of using polishing compound on your car. The rag is probably softer than the paint. In this case, the paint isn't very hard but it's a LOT softer than tiny particles of harder stuff SUSPENDED in a semi-liquid carrier called polishing compound. The particle shape brings very low areas of 'harder stuff' into contact with 'softer stuff'. Also not much force. But 'low area' is the key feature where Pressure is Force divided by Area. If area approaches zero, pressure can become quite large . . . so large that itty-bitty chunks of material are removed from the work surface. The grit size is reduced as the polishing job progresses until the scratches left on the surface become significantly small compared to a wavelength of light. Light now bounces off with gusto . . . i.e. polish Nervana has been achieved. I will bet you a weeks pay that instances of noticeable metal removal under a tie wrap was on a pretty dirty airplane . . . I.e. a soft polishing cloth (tie wrap) was sloshing a grinding grit (dirt) suspended in semi-liquid (grease and oil) against a work surface (metal strut). It's easy to misinterpret the effect to 'use of a tie wrap' when in fact the root cause is simply poor craftsmanship. Anything that is bolted, tied, clamped, or otherwise fastened to a piece of critical structure must be (1) immobile and (2) free of contaminants. You're correct in thinking that a piece of plastic isn't going to mark up a piece of metal and indeed, it didn't. It had help. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:58 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles Here's a thread from VAF: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012 Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire. On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: > kjashton@vnet.net> > > I=99d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal > of a 4130 tube. A google images search of =9Czip tie engine mount tube wear=9D > does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been > documented somewhere with a picture. > > I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards > where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppos e > it=99s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I w ill > continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over th e > wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems > to soft but if it works for others, fine. > > -Kent > Technical Counselor > > > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several > aircraft for this damage ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles From: Kent or Jackie Ashton Yeah but see post #21 in that thread: 18 years zip ties in place and the tub e paint is undisturbed. I agree with that fellow. Engine mounts crack all the time. The presence of a zip tie is trivial compared to forces on a wel ded upper engine-mount joint. When I see a zip tie that has removed any met al from a 4130 tube, I 'll reconsider. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=624064&postcount=21 -kent > On Feb 17, 2017, at 5:38 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > Here's a thread from VAF: > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012 > Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) o wner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear ov er time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts e xpire. > > >> On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton wrote: vnet.net> >> >> I=99d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into t he metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of =9Czip tie engine m ount tube wear=9D does not show any images. Usually something as seri ous as that has been documented somewhere with a picture. >> >> I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards wh ere the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it =99s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will cont inue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine. >> >> -Kent >> Technical Counselor >> >> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircra ft for this damage ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:46 PM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles As Bob described to in the polishing rag example, tie looseness (whether incorrectly tensioned or due tie stretching or soft paint migrating away from underneath the tie) + vibration = relative motion + contaminants = wear and tear. Not everyone will observe wear and tear from plastic zip ties on metal, depending on application and maintenance, but it is a fact that some people do experience this and I have seen it for myself. An Adel clamp will do the same thing if loose, but at least it has greater surface contact area to spread the load. Better to recommend best practices on the forum, but they are not the =98only=99 practices that work. Cheers, Stu > On 18 Feb 2017, at 09:38, Charlie England wrote: > > Here's a thread from VAF: > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012 > Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappear over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their accounts expire. > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > wrote: > > > I=99d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of =9Czip tie engine mount tube wear=9D does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has been documented somewhere with a picture. > > I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppose it=99s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over the wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seems to soft but if it works for others, fine. > > -Kent > Technical Counselor > > > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several aircraft for this damage ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:49:33 PM PST US From: Peter Pengilly Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tie Wraps For Wire Bundles There is more to the common or garden ty-rap/zip-tie/cable-wrap than is first apparent. I have a government customer who insists on only externally serrated ties with no metal locking tang - your buyer has to be careful to get the correct items! I tend to replace any firewall forward ty-rap every few years to ensure the is no damage to the motor mount tubes. I keep a pair of flush cutting side cutters specifically for cutting the tails. In a production environment, with everything to hand, ty-raps can save time and require less skill (so are cheaper). I have more lacing chord on my aeroplane than ty-raps... Peter On 18 Feb 2017 01:09, "Stuart Hutchison" wrote: > As Bob described to in the polishing rag example, tie looseness (whether > incorrectly tensioned or due tie stretching or soft paint migrating away > from underneath the tie) + vibration = relative motion + contaminants > wear and tear. Not everyone will observe wear and tear from plastic zip > ties on metal, depending on application and maintenance, but it is a fact > that some people do experience this and I have seen it for myself. An Ad el > clamp will do the same thing if loose, but at least it has greater surfac e > contact area to spread the load. Better to recommend best practices on th e > forum, but they are not the =98only=99 practices that work. > > Cheers, Stu > > On 18 Feb 2017, at 09:38, Charlie England wrote: > > Here's a thread from VAF: > http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=82012 > Unfortunately, images are likely long gone, since the forum (for profit) > owner refuses to host images on the forum site. Images therefore disappea r > over time, as hosting services go out of business or users let their > accounts expire. > > > On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Kent or Jackie Ashton > wrote: > >> kjashton@vnet.net> >> >> I=99d appreciate seeing a picture of a plastic zip tie eating into the >> metal of a 4130 tube. A google images search of =9Czip tie engine mount tube >> wear=9D does not show any images. Usually something as serious as that has >> been documented somewhere with a picture. >> >> I have 650 hours on my Cozy and several hundred hours in other canards >> where the zip ties have left no mark on the engine mount paint. I suppo se >> it=99s possible but until someone actually shows me an example, I will >> continue to zip tie wires to the engine mount with bit of cushion over t he >> wire. I would not consider silicone tape to be a good cushion. It seem s >> to soft but if it works for others, fine. >> >> -Kent >> Technical Counselor >> >> > On Feb 17, 2017, at 9:56 AM, neal.george@gmail.com wrote: >> > >> > >> > Most definitely not an old wives' tale. I have grounded several >> aircraft for this damage > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.