---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 03/13/17: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:26 AM - Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans (rparigoris) 2. 08:42 AM - Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans (William Hunter) 3. 08:42 AM - Tack vs Hobbs (BobbyPaulk@comcast.net) 4. 09:30 AM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (Kelly McMullen) 5. 09:36 AM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (Alec Myers) 6. 10:24 AM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (Tim Shankland) 7. 10:52 AM - Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans (Eric Page) 8. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans () 9. 12:17 PM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (C&K) 10. 01:21 PM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (Sebastien) 11. 01:34 PM - Re: Tack vs Hobbs (Alec Myers) 12. 08:19 PM - Fw: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10 (stickid) 13. 11:25 PM - Re: Fw: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10 (rayj) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:26:40 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans From: "rparigoris" Hi Bill If you have a brushed motor you can reverse rotation by reversing leads. That said chances are the motor is timed for forward rotation. If you reverse rotation you will have retarded timing that will burn motor up in short order. Best way to check timing is remove fan and run motor at a lower voltage, perhaps 6 to 9 volts and measure the amp draw. Then reverse leads and measure amp draw. Some motors you need to mutilate to readjust timing, but when amp draw is exactly the same, your motor is neutral timed and can be run in both directions. Chances are that the motor has a 5 to 10 degree advance that will just trash the motor if run reversed for any length of time, excuse the pun. Ron Parigoris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467233#467233 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:01 AM PST US From: "William Hunter" Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans Wow...this is most helpful!!! Very good information about the design timing of the fans and that some DC fans cannot simply be wired up in reverse because they burn up...who knew?!?!? Obviously Ron (and others) did!!! So I will "trash" the current fans and seek out fans that advertise "reversible" as they should be neutral timed (and I will verify prior to installing). > Let me know if you need a diagram : ) Henry, Yes PLEASE : 0 I think it is imperative (safety and weight wise) to go with the skinny wire approach and to utilize a DPDT relay to operate the fans. Yes...PLEASE...I would greatly appreciate your assistance in getting a wire diagram and part numbers of the relay(s) and the location of the TVS diode. Who knew there was such a thing as a bidirectional TVS diode (rhetorical question). I have RockRack switches on order and the one I want to use for this fan system is a ON OFF ON switch. Aircraft Spruce does not advertise anything about how many poles or throws (Grrrrr) however I have a picture of the back of the switch and it has 10 terminal spades on the back and since the switch has two LEDs that can be wired up and illuminated when the switch is full up or full down, that takes 4 of the 10 spades and with 6 spades left over I ass-u-me it is a DPDT switch. So in other words it would be most excellent on a hot OAT day to simply push the one RockRack switch fully UP for takeoff and have the top switch LED light up and the fans run as pullers for cooling, then when at altitude and the CHTs are a bit too cold to push the switch to center OFF position and the LEDs are black and the fans stop, and then when flying in really cold OAT or during descent to push the single RockRack switch fully DOWN and the bottom LED lights and the fans run as pushers to blow back against the ram air through my third large cooling scoop. This ad from eBay Aircraft Parts Supply states that these automotive fans are reversible and each fan draws 80 watts so I believe both combined will draw less than 15 Amps (of course I will need to verify both the actual load and that the load is the same forward and backwards prior to proceeding). http://www.ebay.com/itm/DUAL-6-INCH-ELECTRIC-RADIATOR-COOLING-FANS-PUSH-IN-PROBE-THERMOSTAT-2-PACK-FAN-/331828470556 This is really a fun learning experience and I cannot thank you enough for your willingness to help!!! I will be happy to give rides in my airplane when (if) I ever get it put together!!! .. Cheers!!! Bill Hunter -----Original Message----- From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Henry Hallam Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 10:52 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans --> Hi Bill, Good job testing that they work in reverse on the bench. It might be worth measuring how much current they draw at 14.4V - the Amazon page suggests 25A, which is a hefty pair of fans, and a potentially a significant chunk of your alternator's capacity! Instead of the relays in your diagram, one option is to just use a high-current On-Off-On 3-position DPDT switch such as one of these: http://www.digikey.com/short/325mhp Referring to the schematic symbol for the DPDT on page 2 of this datasheet: http://www.nkkswitches.com/pdf/stoggleshighcap.pdf , 2 = Protected (fuse or CB) +14V 5 = Ground 1 = 6 = Motor red 3 = 4 = Motor black You can see it graphically here: https://www.eleinmec.com/figures/012_02.gif If you want to keep the wires in the panel skinny (might be desirable for a pusher), you can achieve a similar effect with a DPDT relay (to swap between forward and reverse), an SPST relay (to switch off and on), with the coils enabled by either two separate SPST switches or a single SPDT On-Off-On switch with a diode to let the second "On" position power both relays. Let me know if you need a diagram :) Regardless of whether you use a high-current switch or relays, you should also place a suitable bidirectional TVS diode across the motor terminals to help suppress arcs in the switch/relay contacts: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/littelfuse-inc/TP5KP15CA/F7654CT-ND/6174274 Good luck, Henry On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 2:46 PM, William Hunter wrote: > Bob and Henry, > > Thank you for your willingness to help. > >> Need more info. Are these permanent magnet motor driven fans? I.e. >> TWO wires coming > out that can be driven either polarity. ...These sound like modern, automotive fans > that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse rotation, you need access to the inner workings of the electronics . . . generally hard if not totally impractical. > > The aftermarket automotive fans are electrically insulated and are designed to be reversible and mounted on a plastic shroud and they have a red and a black wire coming out of the back. I bench tested the fans and they turn backwards when the polarity is reversed. > > https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004LY3Z9Y/ref=oh_aui_search_detailp > age?ie=UTF8&psc=1 > > I have attached a PDF document of the wire diagram. If the AeroElectric server does not allow for attachments then this image link might work: > > > https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.corvetteforum.com-vbulletin/730x780/8 > 0-spal_wiring_diagram_78eade2fe4e5395ef98534dbc5f50f97483be5ee.jpg > > > I am using the bottom dual fan design however this wire diagram shows the ground wire of the relay to be connected to a Normally Open temperature actuated switch that is installed in the lower radiator of a car installation with the intent that when the radiator coolant gets above a certain temperature the thermos-switch will close and the relay coil wire will be grounded and the relay contacts close and the 12VDC power will flow to the fan motors. My relay coil wire will always be grounded and therefore the 12VDC "accessory" feed will be switched on or off to energize the relay coil. > > During hot weather ground operations and low indicated airspeed, the Velocity with the propeller in the back has very little engine cooling airflow and some airplanes have engine overheating concerns during long taxi and initial climb. > > During cold weather operations, the Velocity with the Lycoming only has one oil cooler and this is located in the nose compartment. Outside ram air is pushed through this oil cooler and either ducted outboard or when the pilot needs heat inside the cabin, the outlet of the oil cooler is ducted into the cabin and used for heat. Some Velocity builders report poor cabin heating from this system in very cold OAT because they have trouble keeping their engine warmed up enough to allow the oil to be to be diverted to the oil cooler up front. > > With these two fans and new intake scoop I will certainly have solved the ground/low IAS cooling problem however with this new 1 inch by 14 inch additional engine cooling air intake scoop, I will have amplified this cold OAT problem. > > If the fans can be reversed then during cold weather operations, they will blow backwards and stall out the ram air coming down this new scoop with the only weight penalty being a couple of extra relays and some wiring. > > THANKS AGAIN!!! > .. > > Cheers!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Henry Hallam > Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2017 12:55 PM > To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans > > --> > > My guess is that if you can just turn the fans off, that'll be sufficient to prevent any "over-cooling". Can you be a bit more specific about which scenarios you're concerned about? Perhaps on the ground in cold weather taking too long for the oil and cylinders to warm up before takeoff? > > Henry > > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 12:21 PM, don van santen wrote: >> Instead of reversing the fans I would try reducing the exit size >> where the cooling ait leaves the cowl. This could be as simple as >> tapeing over part ot the exit. >> Another way to keep the engine warm during cold conditions that is >> commonly done to RV av is to cover up to one half ot the oil cooler >> inlet with a removable plate. >> >> On Mar 12, 2017 12:13, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" >> wrote: >> >> At 12:11 PM 3/12/2017, you wrote: >> >> I have a Velocity (pusher) that has the original design with two NACA >> scoops in the roof of the airplane and this provides good cooling in >> flight however on the ground and at low altitudes it is a bit lacking >> during times with hot OAT (where I fly). >> >> Since I recently retrofitted a turbocharger intercooler I also >> installed a third cooling air scoop and dual 10 inch Spal automobile >> cooling fans that blast 650 CFM each and these fans will both cool >> the intake air charge and they will also add supplemental cooling to >> the engine when energized. >> >> So will this new design I will have solved my hot OAT ground/low >> altitude cooling issue however I am concerned that during really >> cold operations it might be too much engine cooling. >> >> Is it possible to reverse the fans and the airflow so when it is >> really cold outside the fans will prevent the third cooling duct from >> providing too much cooling air to the engine? >> >> >> Need more info. Are these permanent magnet >> motor driven fans? I.e. TWO wires coming >> out that can be driven either polarity. >> >> One connection produces CCW rotation, reversed >> connection produces CW rotation. >> >> >> The fans have a on/off switch that utelize a relay (on relay for each >> fan) to complete the circuit to electrify the fans... in other >> words each fan has a heavy gauge wire with an inline fuse for >> protection and there is a cockpit panel CB protected "accessory feed" (sorry... >> automotive term.) that provides power through the ON/OFF switch to >> the automotive relay and when the switch is ON the accessory feed >> completes the circuit and the relay closes its contacts and the >> circuit for the heavy gauge wire is completed and the fans run. >> >> >> These sound like modern, automotive fans >> that are most likely brushless motors. To reverse >> rotation, you need access to the inner workings >> of the electronics . . . generally hard if not >> totally impractical. >> >> Can you give us a link to the description of the >> products? how much current do they draw? >> >> Bob . . . >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:06 AM PST US From: BobbyPaulk@comcast.net Subject: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. Bobby ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:30:55 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs From: Kelly McMullen That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clock time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probably prefer the latter. On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: > > Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs > My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. > Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was > throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower > planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight > time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, > oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. > > Bobby ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:36:29 AM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wheels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? > On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: > > > That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clock time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probably prefer the latter. > >> On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >> >> Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs >> My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. >> Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was >> throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower >> planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight >> time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, >> oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. >> >> Bobby > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:24:57 AM PST US From: "Tim Shankland" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs I'm flying a Zenith Zodiac 610HD with a Status Subaru engine. During the build I decided I didn't want two sensors for oil pressure attached to the engine. The idea of a T fitting with two sensors vibrating gave me thoughts cracked fittings. My solution was to use the existing oil pressure gage. The gage is electric and it is not difficult to determine the voltage present at the gage input that indicates that the engine is running. I built a small circuit that monitors that voltage turns the Hobbs meter on when a sufficient pressure is present. This way the Hobbs only runs when the engine is running and not just when the master switch is on. Tim Shankland -----Original Message----- From: Kelly McMullen Sent: Monday, March 13, 2017 12:28 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clock time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probably prefer the latter. On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: > > Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs > My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. > Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was > throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower > planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight > time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, > oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. > > Bobby ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:52:45 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans From: "Eric Page" Bill, The eBay fans have the same problem; their blades must be flipped on the shaft to reverse airflow. Quoting from the listing: "Blade and wiring can be reversed to make the fans air pushers." You're probably going to find that this is a common problem. Most fans with injection molded plastic blade rotors will be CFD-optimized for direction of rotation, and they may not work well if only the motor is reversed. It might be worth asking the fan manufacturer if a motor-only reversal just presents a minor efficiency loss or if it could harm the motor. Don't forget to consider the additional load presented by ram air. If your NACA duct is working well, that could be substantial, especially against a blade that's turning the wrong direction. The fans may rely on the airflow they generate to cool themselves. If you use the fans to stall airflow, will their motors overheat? Have you considered just installing a butterfly or knife valve in the tubing from your duct to cut off airflow if it's too cold? It could be operated by a simple push/pull cable that would allow you to modulate airflow by partially closing the valve. The only electrical change you would need is a cutout switch that removes fan power if the valve isn't fully open. Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467251#467251 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:14:16 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Re: Reversible Spal Cooling Fans Has any consideration been given to eliminating the use of the fan in cold weather and putting a =9CPlug=9D in the extra air intake. The plug could be fabricated perhaps as a door or a foam plug. I am not famili ar with the aircraft and the cooling mods thus far made, but there may be a nother alternative, rather than being hung up on the fan issue. Roger ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:17:41 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs From: C&K One can always fit a squat switch on the landing gear. I set my EIS tach threshold so it does not accumulate time below a specific rpm such that it ignores warm up and ground maneuvering. With my geared engine, it also ignores flight time when I do power off landings though. My most successful option by far though was to marry a former tower controller who just can't break the habit of recording off and on times... ;) Ken On 13/03/2017 12:33 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wheels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? > >> On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >> >> >> That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clock time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probably prefer the latter. >> >>> On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >>> >>> Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs >>> My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. >>> Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was >>> throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower >>> planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight >>> time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, >>> oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. >>> >>> Bobby >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:07 PM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs >> In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wh eels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? For private aircraft in Canada (excepting 604) I can't think of a single mai ntenance item that is required to be done on a time basis. Yes you have to t otal the air time in the Journey Log (which any most handheld GPSs will keep track of for you), but since all required maintenance is based on calendar t imes, you can use whatever hourly time measure you want to when deciding wha t maintenance to do. Sebastien > On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:14, C&K wrote: > > > One can always fit a squat switch on the landing gear. I set my EIS tach t hreshold so it does not accumulate time below a specific rpm such that it i gnores warm up and ground maneuvering. With my geared engine, it also ignore s flight time when I do power off landings though. > My most successful option by far though was to marry a former tower contro ller who just can't break the habit of recording off and on times... ;) > Ken > >> On 13/03/2017 12:33 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> >> In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wh eels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? >> >>> On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote : >>> .com> >>> >>> That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clo ck time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probabl y prefer the latter. >>> >>>> On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >>>> >>>> Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs >>>> My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. >>>> Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was >>>> throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower >>>> planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight >>>> time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, >>>> oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. >>>> >>>> Bobby >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:38 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tack vs Hobbs From: Alec Myers I wasn't suggesting that Canadian aircraft are subject to any particular maintenance or inspection requirements. Rather, that when they are, the relevant "run time" that has to be accounted for is wheels-up to wheels-down. Let me as the question again: when the FAA mandates usage-based inspection or maintenance (for instance, mandatory 100 hour inspections for aircraft used for instruction) - what is the time that is counted towards those 100 hours? Is it engine run time, or air time, or tach time, or some other measure? On 13Mar2017, at 4:17 PM, Sebastien wrote: >> In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wheels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? For private aircraft in Canada (excepting 604) I can't think of a single maintenance item that is required to be done on a time basis. Yes you have to total the air time in the Journey Log (which any most handheld GPSs will keep track of for you), but since all required maintenance is based on calendar times, you can use whatever hourly time measure you want to when deciding what maintenance to do. Sebastien On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:14, C&K wrote: > > One can always fit a squat switch on the landing gear. I set my EIS tach threshold so it does not accumulate time below a specific rpm such that it ignores warm up and ground maneuvering. With my geared engine, it also ignores flight time when I do power off landings though. > My most successful option by far though was to marry a former tower controller who just can't break the habit of recording off and on times... ;) > Ken > > On 13/03/2017 12:33 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> >> In Canada maintenance time is based on aggregate flight time, strictly wheels-up to wheels-down, so you have to use a clock or wristwatch even if you have a Hobbs meter. What does the FAA require? >> >>> On Mar 13, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Kelly McMullen wrote: >>> >>> >>> That just brings up the debate...should your maintenance be based on clock time, or accumulated rpms? If you are at low power, low rpms, you probably prefer the latter. >>> >>>> On 3/13/2017 8:38 AM, BobbyPaulk@comcast.net wrote: >>>> >>>> Getting back to the Tach vs Hobbs >>>> My Pitts had a Tach calibrated for 2450 RPM to equal an hour. >>>> Flight time was only accurate if you kept that RPM. Most times I was >>>> throttled back to 1900 and 2000 rpm to fly cross country with slower >>>> planes. When I accumulated 500 hrs plus on the Tach the actual flight >>>> time was over 700 hours. If you want accurate flight time for logging, >>>> oil changes, and maintenance you should definitely use Hobbs time. >>>> >>>> Bobby >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroEl====================================================bsp; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > _==========================; - NEW MATRONICS LIST W===================================================http://www.matronics.com/contr=========================================== > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:19:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10 From: "stickid" I am looking for a manual for the KX-145 and wondering if you would be able to send me a scanned copy please. Thanks Bob R Winnipeg Canada Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467277#467277 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:25:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fwd: Re: King KX145 pin out, pin 10 From: rayj Bob, I have a copy of the manual I scanned in several years ago. I scanned at a high resolution. I believe it fills 5+ DVDs. I sent a copy to Bob N. He may have created a smaller copy of it. I would be willing to sell the copy I have, if you're interested in having a paper copy. I also have a KX-145 and vor head, if you're interested in having one for spare parts. Raymond Julian Kettle River, MN The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. -John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968) On 03/13/2017 10:16 PM, stickid wrote: > > I am looking for a manual for the KX-145 and wondering if you would be able to send me a scanned copy please. > Thanks > Bob R > Winnipeg Canada > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=467277#467277 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.