Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:46 AM - Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (rv8ch)
2. 02:47 AM - TSU'd Usb charger?? (MICK MULLER bigpond)
3. 04:46 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Alec Myers)
4. 04:53 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (user9253)
5. 05:05 AM - Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (user9253)
6. 05:16 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Charlie England)
7. 05:20 AM - Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (rv8ch)
8. 05:39 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert Borger)
9. 05:49 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (C&K)
10. 06:19 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 06:26 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 06:28 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
13. 06:38 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Alec Myers)
14. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Josh Tinkham)
15. 07:51 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Charlie England)
16. 08:07 AM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Ken Ryan)
17. 08:08 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Daniel Hooper)
18. 09:32 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Bernie)
19. 10:01 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Daniel Hooper)
20. 10:28 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Bernie Willis)
21. 10:57 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Daniel Hooper)
22. 11:18 AM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Eric Page)
23. 02:02 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Bernie Willis)
24. 03:59 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
25. 04:08 PM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
26. 04:13 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
27. 04:36 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Daniel Hooper)
28. 05:11 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 05:15 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Ken Ryan)
31. 09:39 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Eric Page)
32. 09:55 PM - Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? (Paul Millner)
33. 11:18 PM - Re: Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
One point that is not clear for me about the internal/external VR discussion.
I apologize in advance if this has been clarified somewhere else and I just missed
it.
I don't understand why or how an external voltage regulator can safely cut the
field using the crowbar method and an internal regulator cannot. If I look at
the wiring diagrams there does not seem to be a difference. Is it just that
the external VR is more robust?
Thanks for any clarity you can provide.
--------
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468755#468755
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| Subject: | TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Hello Electrical Gurus.
I recently got an email from Aircraft Spruce advertising Appeareo stratus dual
power usb charging port which was TSOd.
I am aware that TSO defines technical standards to which each device must conform.
But I am wondering just what is in a TSOd version of a USB charger port versus
a non TSOd one.
Especially given the price quoted on the Spruce website is $399.95.
For that money, I would want it gold plated at least.
Mick building an RV9A.
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
What is included for the price is FAA permission to hardwire it to a type-certificates
aircraft without invalidating the certificate of airworthiness.
If you have such an airplane and want legally to install a USB charger that's worth
10x any amount of gold plating.
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 5:45 AM, MICK MULLER bigpond <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Electrical Gurus.
> I recently got an email from Aircraft Spruce advertising Appeareo stratus dual
power usb charging port which was TSOd.
> I am aware that TSO defines technical standards to which each device must conform.
> But I am wondering just what is in a TSOd version of a USB charger port versus
a non TSOd one.
> Especially given the price quoted on the Spruce website is $399.95.
> For that money, I would want it gold plated at least.
> Mick building an RV9A.
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
The Appareo Stratus ESG already has two of 5 VDC outputs. All you have to do is
buy the USB ports from eBay for about $2 and connect the wires.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468759#468759
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
The internally regulated alternator gets its field power from within the alternator.
There is no easy way for the pilot or for an over-voltage protection module
to interrupt that power.
The externally regulated alternator gets its field power from a panel mounted
fuse or circuit breaker or switch. It is much easier to interrupt the external
field power source.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468760#468760
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:45 AM, rv8ch <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> wrote:
>
> One point that is not clear for me about the internal/external VR
> discussion. I apologize in advance if this has been clarified somewhere
> else and I just missed it.
>
> I don't understand why or how an external voltage regulator can safely cut
> the field using the crowbar method and an internal regulator cannot. If I
> look at the wiring diagrams there does not seem to be a difference. Is it
> just that the external VR is more robust?
>
> Thanks for any clarity you can provide.
>
> --------
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
>
>
> With an external regulator, the crowbar shorts the field winding to
ground, tripping the field circuit breaker (typically 5 amp rating). One
cycle on the breaker; no damage done.
You can achieve the exact same thing with an internally regulated
alternator, but you must open up the alternator, find the field lead from
the internal regulator to the field winding, and bring it outside the
alternator to a field CB, then back to the winding. It can be done, if you
know what you're doing. But it *is* a significant 'invasion' into a very
well thought-out and tested (by auto engineers) system, so there's risk of
doing it wrong, or just upsetting the design. It could be as simple as: the
act of re-routing the field wire could make it more vulnerable to vibration
induced failure. (Just one example.)
The simpler method is to add an external contactor in series with the
B-lead, and feed its coil through that 5A breaker. Then the OV module would
short the coil circuit to ground, tripping the breaker and opening the
contactor. That's the technique used on the permanent magnet alternators,
that have no field winding. Bob no longer includes that method in the book.
If memory serves, there were issues many years ago where some were
'testing' the OV feature (or their 'traditionally wired' split master
switch) while in flight (with the alternator loaded), and by 'dumping' the
load, the perfectly good alternator could fry its internal regulator
because the regulator couldn't respond quickly enough to keep the sharp
rise in voltage from damaging internal semiconductors. In the immortal
words of the Hee Haw TV show doctor, 'If it hurts when you do that, don't
do that.' The only reason to operate that contactor is if the alternator
has already failed.
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
user9253 wrote:
> The internally regulated alternator gets its field power from within the alternator.
There is no easy way for the pilot or for an over-voltage protection
module to interrupt that power.
> The externally regulated alternator gets its field power from a panel mounted
fuse or circuit breaker or switch. It is much easier to interrupt the external
field power source.
Yes, this is what I thought as well, but looking at the Z diagrams for how to wire
an external VR, it looks like control of the F is only done by the VR, so
I'm struggling to see a difference between and Internal and and External VR.
--------
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468761#468761
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/voltage_regulator_113.png
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Aero Folks,
And if you happen to need one in your Experimental OBAM aircraft where
the TSO isn=99t necessary there=99s a nice unit available
for $75 from:
http://commitlift.com <http://commitlift.com/>
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com <mailto:rlborger@mac.com>
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 4:45 AM, MICK MULLER bigpond
<mmul6471@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
<mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Hello Electrical Gurus.
> I recently got an email from Aircraft Spruce advertising Appeareo
stratus dual power usb charging port which was TSO=99d.
> I am aware that TSO defines technical standards to which each device
must conform.
> But I am wondering just what is in a TSO=99d version of a USB
charger port versus a non TSO=99d one.
> Especially given the price quoted on the Spruce website is $399.95.
> For that money, I would want it gold plated at least.
> Mick building an RV9A.
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
Mickey
I suspect that something about the diagram you are looking at is
misleading you.
Recall that the voltage sense wire (or any of the small wires) going
into an internal vr alternator do not normally supply the field. The
internal vr alternators that I'm familiar with will continue to output
power if all the small wires are disconnected.
As mentioned, there is no external connection or wire between the
internal vr and the field winding unless you modify the stock alternator.
Ken
On 25/04/2017 8:19 AM, rv8ch wrote:
>
>
> user9253 wrote:
>> The internally regulated alternator gets its field power from within the alternator.
There is no easy way for the pilot or for an over-voltage protection
module to interrupt that power.
>> The externally regulated alternator gets its field power from a panel mounted
fuse or circuit breaker or switch. It is much easier to interrupt the external
field power source.
> Yes, this is what I thought as well, but looking at the Z diagrams for how to
wire an external VR, it looks like control of the F is only done by the VR, so
I'm struggling to see a difference between and Internal and and External VR.
>
> --------
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
At 04:45 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>
>One point that is not clear for me about the internal/external VR
>discussion. I apologize in advance if this has been clarified
>somewhere else and I just missed it.
>
>I don't understand why or how an external voltage regulator can
>safely cut the field using the crowbar method and an internal
>regulator cannot. If I look at the wiring diagrams there does not
>seem to be a difference. Is it just that the external VR is more robust?
>
>Thanks for any clarity you can provide.
The externally regulated alternator has NO electronics
inside . . . just a rudimentary alternator.
Emacs!
Interrupting the 'field input' line offers total
control over alternator output.
The internally regulated alternator has solid
state devices that control alternator output.
There is no field power input connection, only
a 'control' connection that talks to the
electronics.
Emacs!
There are failure modes INTERNAL to the alternator
that can cause an over voltage condition . . . a
condition not controllable from outside.
Hence, the legacy preference for externally regulated
alternators that allow a system integrator to include
over voltage protection in some form. It doesn't
have to be the 'crowbar' style . . . there are several
satisfactory approaches.
The crowbar ov module offers the simplest and most
robust configuration but it's not intended to displace
any other demonstrably functioning ov management system.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
At 04:45 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>MULLER bigpond <mmul6471@bigpond.net.au>
>
>Hello Electrical Gurus.
>I recently got an email from Aircraft Spruce
>advertising Appeareo stratus dual power usb charging port which was
TSO=99d.
>I am aware that TSO defines technical standards
>to which each device must conform.
>But I am wondering just what is in a TSO=99d
>version of a USB charger port versus a non TSO=99d one.
>Especially given the price quoted on the Spruce website is $399.95.
>For that money, I would want it gold plated at least
or perhaps platinum plated . . .
Try any usb power port product you like. It's
an experimental airplane . . . this means you
can try things that may be discarded for one
reason or another later.
Risks for incorporation of jelly-bean usb
power products include noise in radios
and/or perhaps simple lack of robustness for
the aviation environment. Just be aware
of the potential risks and explore them
under comfortable, low risk flying conditions.
If you plan to run some appliance that is
extraordinarily useful/necessary for comfortable
conduct of your flight, consider building your
own usb power port. It's just a 5v power source.
A linear regulator generates no noise and is
only a little larger/heavier.
But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
this case is a license to extort . . .
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
>Yes, this is what I thought as well, but looking at the Z diagrams
>for how to wire an external VR, it looks like control of the F is
>only done by the VR, so I'm struggling to see a difference between
>and Internal and and External VR.
But the crowbar ov module in turn controls power
to the external regulator. Opening the field power
source to the regulator will also shut down the
alternator. That 'control' lead into an IR
alternator cannot be guaranteed to offer
absolute control under all failure modes.
Bob . . .
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
>>But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
this case is a license to extort . . .
Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft - which can be anything
up to a multi-million dollar business jet, remember, and you want a USB
socket, you need something TSO'd. You yourself probably know better than anyone
the cost of pushing the paperwork through on that, versus the number of units
likely to be sold.
If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO - it seems unfair
to single out this product for criticism.
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
I've been thinking about the alternator setup for my RV-10 lately. I think
OV protection is necessary, but also would like to have a high capacity alt
(60-70amp) so I can run some seat heaters (I know, blame the wife). The
best thing I had found so far was the externally regulated Honda alt that
puts out 45amps. Also have found the write-up for hacking up an IR
alternator to bring out the field wire, but not very fond of that idea as
it complicates (at best) field maintenance.
This is the first I've seen of the Perihelion design module. At first
glance it seems like it may allow me to run a bigger IR altenator but still
have effective OV protection. Jan's comments though make it sound like a
200ms trip time might not work.
Bob what kind of new setup are you testing? Very interested to hear what
you have going on.
-Josh
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
wrote:
> Eric says his works in about 200ms: http://www.periheliondesign.
> com/lovm.htm
>
> Mickey Coggins
>
> On 13 April 2017 at 16:32, Jan de Jong <jan_de_jong@casema.nl> wrote:
>
>> With a 22mF, 40V capacitor there would be 24/0.64 = 37.5ms available
>> until the DO160 limit is reached.
>> If a 47mF/40V capacitor were installed the bus voltage would climb at
>> 0.30V/ms and it would take 24/0.30 = 80ms for the DO160 limit to be reached.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>
>
>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
> this case is a license to extort . . .
>
>
> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft - which can be anything
up to a multi-million dollar business jet, remember, and you want a USB
socket, you need something TSO'd. You yourself probably know better than anyone
the cost of pushing the paperwork through on that, versus the number of units
likely to be sold.
>
> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO - it seems unfair
to single out this product for criticism.
>
People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
Example from one of my past lives:
One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining security
systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3 big
companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the only
one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated up,
demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day I
got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a new
local organization of alarm companies *so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. *Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing**companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c carburetor.
Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership changes
(remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the carb
design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
Charlie
*
*
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
Because I am installing the optional 40 amp Rotax alternator (internally
regulated Denso) this discussion is very interesting to me. From what I am
reading, it sounds like the only way to shut it down would be to interrupt
the output (B wire) with a switch or pull breaker.
If that is the case, what is the purpose of the IG wire, which runs from
the bus, through the master switch, to the alternator?
Thanks,
Ken
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 4:04 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The internally regulated alternator gets its field power from within the
> alternator. There is no easy way for the pilot or for an over-voltage
> protection module to interrupt that power.
> The externally regulated alternator gets its field power from a panel
> mounted fuse or circuit breaker or switch. It is much easier to interrupt
> the external field power source.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=468760#468760
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
I=92ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where people
(temporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight
computers or other electronics and end up with =91terrible screeching=92
on the radio.
For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB jack is a
no-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That $12 USB
charger from Walmart may not be very good.
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com> <mailto:alec@alecmyers.com>
>>
>>
>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft - which
can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet, remember, and
you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You yourself probably
know better than anyone the cost of pushing the paperwork through on
that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>
>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO - it
seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>
> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
>
> Example from one of my past lives:
> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining
security systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3
big companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the
only one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated
up, demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day
I got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a
new local organization of alarm companies so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
>
> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c carburetor.
Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership changes
(remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the carb
design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
>
> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>
> Charlie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Bob
Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB charger?
Thanks
Bernie Willis
Sent from my iPhone
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
>
> I=99ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where people (t
emporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight computers or o
ther electronics and end up with =98terrible screeching=99 on th
e radio.
>
> For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB jack is a n
o-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That $12 USB charger
from Walmart may not be very good.
>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote
:
>>
>> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft - which can
be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet, remember, and you wa
nt a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You yourself probably know better
than anyone the cost of pushing the paperwork through on that, versus the n
umber of units likely to be sold.
>>>
>>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO - it se
ems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>>
>> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator (governme
nt). It's rarely that simple a case.
>>
>> Example from one of my past lives:
>> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining security s
ystems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3 big companies i
n my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the only one who would s
ervice 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated up, demand went up and n
ew players appeared on the supply side. One day I got a call from one of the
big companies, inviting me to help form a new local organization of alarm c
ompanies so that we could lobby the legislature for regulations requiring an
y new companies to be 'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consum
ers from those inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing com
panies would be grandfathered in, of course...
>>
>> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c carburetor. Do
some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership changes (remember
ing that typically, big money changes hands) of the carb design, and overlay
the dates of the series of AD's on the float. Correlation? Causation? You d
ecide.
>>
>> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that someone
else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avast.com
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
I did all the background research necessary to do a fully-protected and
whisper-quiet (and probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then Commit
Lift and a few others came along and it wasn=99t really worth it
anymore.
My chip-level design was going to be a minimum of $100 a unit to sell
anyway, and it=99s hard to compete when people don=99t
understand the difference between your $100 product and a $10 product.
Just my 0.02.. : /
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Bernie <arcticarrow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bob
> Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB charger?
>
> Thanks
> Bernie Willis
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
>>
>> I=99ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where
people (temporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight
computers or other electronics and end up with =98terrible
screeching=99 on the radio.
>>
>> For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB jack
is a no-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That $12
USB charger from Walmart may not be very good.
>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com> <mailto:alec@alecmyers.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft -
which can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet,
remember, and you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You
yourself probably know better than anyone the cost of pushing the
paperwork through on that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>>>
>>>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO -
it seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>>>
>>> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
>>>
>>> Example from one of my past lives:
>>> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining
security systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3
big companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the
only one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated
up, demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day
I got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a
new local organization of alarm companies so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
>>>
>>> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c
carburetor. Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership
changes (remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the
carb design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
>>>
>>> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_
campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Bob,
Found Committ Lift.
Thanks,
Bernie
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:00 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> I did all the background research necessary to do a fully-protected
and whisper-quiet (and probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then
Commit Lift and a few others came along and it wasn=99t really
worth it anymore.
>
> My chip-level design was going to be a minimum of $100 a unit to sell
anyway, and it=99s hard to compete when people don=99t
understand the difference between your $100 product and a $10 product.
>
> Just my 0.02.. : /
>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Bernie <arcticarrow@gmail.com
<mailto:arcticarrow@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Bob
>> Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB charger?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Bernie Willis
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
>>>
>>> I=99ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where
people (temporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight
computers or other electronics and end up with =98terrible
screeching=99 on the radio.
>>>
>>> For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB jack
is a no-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That $12
USB charger from Walmart may not be very good.
>>>
>>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com> <mailto:alec@alecmyers.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>>>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft -
which can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet,
remember, and you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You
yourself probably know better than anyone the cost of pushing the
paperwork through on that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO -
it seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>>>>
>>>> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
>>>>
>>>> Example from one of my past lives:
>>>> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining
security systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3
big companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the
only one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated
up, demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day
I got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a
new local organization of alarm companies so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
>>>>
>>>> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c
carburetor. Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership
changes (remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the
carb design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
>>>>
>>>> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>>>>
>>>> Charlie
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_
campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
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>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Just for clarity=99s sake, I am not Bob.
=94Daniel
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Bernie Willis <arcticarrow@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Found Committ Lift.
>
> Thanks,
> Bernie
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:00 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I did all the background research necessary to do a fully-protected
and whisper-quiet (and probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then
Commit Lift and a few others came along and it wasn=99t really
worth it anymore.
>>
>> My chip-level design was going to be a minimum of $100 a unit to sell
anyway, and it=99s hard to compete when people don=99t
understand the difference between your $100 product and a $10 product.
>>
>> Just my 0.02.. : /
>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Bernie <arcticarrow@gmail.com
<mailto:arcticarrow@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bob
>>> Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB
charger?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Bernie Willis
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
>>>>
>>>> I=99ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where
people (temporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight
computers or other electronics and end up with =98terrible
screeching=99 on the radio.
>>>>
>>>> For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB jack
is a no-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That $12
USB charger from Walmart may not be very good.
>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com
<mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com> <mailto:alec@alecmyers.com>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>>>>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft -
which can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet,
remember, and you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You
yourself probably know better than anyone the cost of pushing the
paperwork through on that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO
- it seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>>>>>
>>>>> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
>>>>>
>>>>> Example from one of my past lives:
>>>>> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining
security systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3
big companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the
only one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated
up, demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day
I got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a
new local organization of alarm companies so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
>>>>>
>>>>> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c
carburetor. Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership
changes (remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the
carb design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
>>>>>
>>>>> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_
campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
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>>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
My experience was virtually identical to Daniel's. I spent several months and
a several $hundred$ on prototypes of a ground-up design to get a charger that
worked well and -- with some guidance from our mentor here -- was electrically
quiet. Then I sat down and figured out what I would have to charge for it to
make it worth my trouble. When I considered what would be involved (form an
LLC; get panels of PCBs fabricated and robotically assembled; stock shipping supplies;
build a website; set up payment acceptance; handle federal, state and
local tax reporting; traipse to the post office to fulfill orders; deal with
tech support requests; handle the inevitable returns -- and after all that, make
a reasonable profit), in the end, it just didn't make any sense.
For an existing company with engineers on staff, an established supply chain and
a dealer network, it's feasible; for an electronics and aviation hobbyist, not
so much.
Eric
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 10:00 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com> wrote:
> I did all the background research necessary to do a fully-protected and whisper-quiet
(and probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then Commit Lift and a
few others came along and it wasnt really worth it anymore.
>
> My chip-level design was going to be a minimum of $100 a unit to sell anyway,
and its hard to compete when people dont understand the difference between your
$100 product and a $10 product.
>
> Just my 0.02.. : /
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
Thanks, Daniel
Bernie
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:54 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Just for clarity=99s sake, I am not Bob.
>
> =94Daniel
>
>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Bernie Willis <arcticarrow@gmail.com
<mailto:arcticarrow@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Found Committ Lift.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Bernie
>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:00 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I did all the background research necessary to do a fully-protected
and whisper-quiet (and probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then
Commit Lift and a few others came along and it wasn=99t really
worth it anymore.
>>>
>>> My chip-level design was going to be a minimum of $100 a unit to
sell anyway, and it=99s hard to compete when people don=99t
understand the difference between your $100 product and a $10 product.
>>>
>>> Just my 0.02.. : /
>>>
>>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Bernie <arcticarrow@gmail.com
<mailto:arcticarrow@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>> Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB
charger?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Bernie Willis
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 7:07 AM, Daniel Hooper <enginerdy@gmail.com
<mailto:enginerdy@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Some of these USB chargers out there are utter crap though!
>>>>>
>>>>> I=99ve now racked up a handful of reported instances where
people (temporarily) wire in some sort of 5V converter for their flight
computers or other electronics and end up with =98terrible
screeching=99 on the radio.
>>>>>
>>>>> For a guy flying around in a mid-6-figure airplane, a $400 USB
jack is a no-brainer. For the rest of us, be careful what you buy. That
$12 USB charger from Walmart may not be very good.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 25, 2017, at 9:52 AM, Charlie England
<ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
<alec@alecmyers.com> <mailto:alec@alecmyers.com>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>>>>>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft -
which can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet,
remember, and you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You
yourself probably know better than anyone the cost of pushing the
paperwork through on that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO
- it seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> People seem to almost always blame regulations on the regulator
(government). It's rarely that simple a case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Example from one of my past lives:
>>>>>> One aspect of my former business was installing and maintaining
security systems (burglar/fire alarms). At the time, there were 2 or 3
big companies in my area, and me (much smaller, but I was probably the
only one who would service 'orphaned' systems). As fear of crime heated
up, demand went up and new players appeared on the supply side. One day
I got a call from one of the big companies, inviting me to help form a
new local organization of alarm companies so that we could lobby the
legislature for regulations requiring any new companies to be
'certified' and licensed. Got to protect those consumers from those
inexperienced, incompetent new companies, right? Existing companies
would be grandfathered in, of course...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For an example closer to home, look at the most common a/c
carburetor. Do some historical research, tracking the dates of ownership
changes (remembering that typically, big money changes hands) of the
carb design, and overlay the dates of the series of AD's on the float.
Correlation? Causation? You decide.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We get the government we lobby for. Or we get the government that
someone else lobbies for, while we do nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_
campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free. www.avast.com
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<x-msg://52/#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>
>>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
At 09:52 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>On 4/25/2017 8:35 AM, Alec Myers wrote:
>>
>><mailto:alec@alecmyers.com><alec@alecmyers.com>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>But yeah, give me a break. . . . 'TSO' in
>>
>> this case is a license to extort . . .
>>
>>
>>
>>Bob, I think that's a little harsh. If you own a TC aircraft -
>>which can be anything up to a multi-million dollar business jet,
>>remember, and you want a USB socket, you need something TSO'd. You
>>yourself probably know better than anyone the cost of pushing the
>>paperwork through on that, versus the number of units likely to be sold.
>>
>>If there's any "extortion" going on it's by the FAA and the ICAO -
>>it seems unfair to single out this product for criticism.
You are right of course . . . I wasn't clear. It's the
primary reason I have departed the TC aircraft
scene professionally. Back about 1980, I proposed,
prototyped, submitted samples, reworked to customer
desires, did a production drawing package, built
qual test articles, wrote the test plan, did all
but EMC testing in our labs, wrote the test report,
got it bought off by FAA, wrote the acceptance test
procedure and coordinated with the production line
to put a new, all electronic stall and gear warning
horn on the Bonanza and Baron lines at Beech.
Did it all by myself in about 90 days start to finish. To
get that SAME exact product on an airplane today would
probably command a 'team' of a half dozen specialists
and take 6 months to a year to wind it's way through
the ISO9000 policies and procedures mine-field.
I had similar successes with a constant speed pitch
trim system for the Lears and a sprinkling of other
devices at Cessna, Lear and Beech.
My last exertions in TC aircraft were expended about two
years ago. The goal was to convince Beech DERs that we
could take the guts out of a Cessna regulator (made by Lamar)
and put them inside the housing for a Beech regulator (also built
by Lamar). The Beech regulator had been a pain the
the arse for about 30 years. The Cessna regulator had
a flawless field history for about 20 years. Since
both Beech and Cessna were now the same company, you'd
think it was a no-brainer . . . BOTH products were qualified
and had been in production for decades.
Fortunately, my consulting contract ran out about three
weeks into this 'simple fix' . . . and I did not have to
hang around and watch the various 'teams' turn a little
problem into a huge one . . . that took about a year
to get resolved. In the mean time, Bonanza and Baron owners
were suffering the consequences of 'our' inadequacies.
So yes Alec, you're point is well taken . . . to which
I will add the idea that (1) nobody sets out to build a
marginal product and (2) the path to perfection is paved
with spontaneous order, the collegial cooperation of
all interested parties to do the best we know how to do
today and improve on it tomorrow. Improvements that
are now burdened with tons of regulatory mill stones.
Thanks for calling me out on it!
Bob . . .
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
At 10:04 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>Because I am installing the optional 40 amp
>Rotax alternator (internally regulated Denso)
>this discussion is very interesting to me. >From
>what I am reading, it sounds like the only way
>to shut it down would be to interrupt the output
>(B wire) with a switch or pull breaker.=C2
>
>If that is the case, what is the purpose of the
>IG wire, which runs from the bus, through the master switch, to the
alternator?
This wire WILL control the alternator as long
as there are no failures of the electronics
that respond to that command.
To incorporate IR alternators in this manner
on airplanes argues with legacy design rules
driven by failure mode effects analysis that
assumes every part will fail . . . and then
designing a system that will mitigate that
failure. I.E. ov protection with absolute
control over field excitation.
Using the automotive convention for IR alternators
is acceptable in the TC world only if the
IR electronics can be declared to have a 1
in ten to the minus 9 failures per flight
hour (Part 25 or higher qualifications).
The stock automotive alternator is indeed
VERY reliable but the process controls and
sprinkling of holy water needed to declare
a 1 x 10^-9 failure rate would far exceed
the value of proposed market (see my earlier
posting about regulatory/bureaucratic mill-stones).
Hence, it's more 'practical' to convert the
stock automotive alternator to an externally
regulated machine (B&C approach) -OR- modify
the IR circuitry to bring out the (+) field
supply lead for implementation of absolute
control (PlanePower approach).
Bob . . .
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
At 12:00 PM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>I did all the background research necessary to
>do a fully-protected and whisper-quiet (and
>probably TSO-able) one a while back, but then
>Commit Lift and a few others came along and it
>wasn=99t really worth it anymore.
>
>My chip-level design was going to be a minimum
>of $100 a unit to sell anyway, and it=99s hard
>to compete when people don=99t understand the
>difference between your $100 product and a $10 product.
Yeah, didn't we have some conversation about
noise filters on that project? I fully understand
and empathize with the go/no-go decision to
go toe-to-toe with the competition . . . ESPECIALLY
in a market like OBAM aircraft where volumes
will be agonizingly low unless you spend kilobux
promoting the product . . . which drives up the
selling price . . .
Been there, done that . . .
Bob . . .
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
> On Apr 25, 2017, at 6:12 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, didn't we have some conversation about
> noise filters on that project?
I don=92t believe that was me. Once I got a prototype I was going to
talk to you about your testing fee, but my filter was going to be baked
into the converter circuit design. I mostly got hung up on packaging,
since it needed some kind of nice enclosure that isn=92t available off
the shelf.
> I fully understand
> and empathize with the go/no-go decision to
> go toe-to-toe with the competition . . . ESPECIALLY
> in a market like OBAM aircraft where volumes
> will be agonizingly low unless you spend kilobux
> promoting the product . . . which drives up the
> selling price . . .
Yup!
=97Daniel
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
At 11:30 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>Bob
>Could you right up the details on building our own Quiet USB charger?
The task is four-fold.
(1) You need a quiet 5v source.
Easy to get with an number of linear regulator
devices. Assuming you want to craft a "high power"
source (2A) you'll need a device rated for that
kind of current or more. There are dozens of
suitable candidates. Here is but one
http://tinyurl.com/l227b8c
http://tinyurl.com/k37l6kz
(2) Then you need to mount it to a heatsink that will
keep it operably cool while dissipating (14-5)x2
or 14 watts. This will look something like this:
Emacs!
(3) Then you need to wire a USB connector with the
appropriate resistor network that tells your
portable appliance that this is a high current
USB power source and it's okay to load it
accordingly. I'm not cognizant of the details
for selecting these 'configuration telltale'
resistors . . . perhaps someone on the List has
researched this.
(4) then you need to package all this stuff
in a manner that offers some aviation grade
robustness.
Perhaps I need to qualify my suggestion that a DIY
USB power source is 'easy' . . . it is if you've
been there, done that . . . or perhaps have explicit
instructions along with a bill of materials.
Frankly, I wouldn't bother to build one. I've got
a number of cigar lighter, USB power sources in
4 different vehicles ranging from 500mA to 2A
in charging capacity. One is a 4-port device good
for 2A per port that I think I got at Walmart.
I can recall having pitched a couple such devices into
the refuse barrel at my local gas-and-wienies mart
after discovering that they interfered with the
car radio or my EMS/Fire services radios. But those
instances are rare.
Right now, my biggest victim/antagonist issue is
a JVC panel mounted AM/FM radio in my Sedona has
a spur right on the EMS repeater output frequency.
Can't listen to audio files on the JVC while I'm
on call.
Got a new Kenwood on the floor at my desk right
now that will be rotated into the Sedona as soon
as I have time.
If you REALLY want to build one, I and others here
on the List will endeavor to assist but I think you'll
find the return on $time$ to be of poor value. You
can experiment with a lot of commercial off the shelf
offerings for peanuts.
Here's the one I think I bought for the truck . . .
http://tinyurl.com/kujga3t
This one has coexisted with the compliment of electronics
in my car.
I've got a digital broadband receiver on the shelf
that's been there for about a year. I think it will
let me 'sniff' the environment around various electro
whizzies to explore for potential conflicts . . . but
that project is way on the back burners.
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
At 01:16 PM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>
>My experience was virtually identical to Daniel's. I spent several
>months and a several $hundred$ on prototypes of a ground-up design
>to get a charger that worked well and -- with some guidance from our
>mentor here -- was electrically quiet.
Oh yeah, it was a gleam in Eric's eye
that we tried to nurture . . .
Nothing ventured, nothing gained but I'm
pleased that he made the go/no-go decision
before tooling up and building inventory
that wouldn't/couldn't move . . .
I've had a couple of those projects . . .
Bob . . .
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
Thanks Bob.
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 3:07 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:04 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>
> Because I am installing the optional 40 amp Rotax alternator (internally
> regulated Denso) this discussion is very interesting to me. >From what I
am
> reading, it sounds like the only way to shut it down would be to interrup
t
> the output (B wire) with a switch or pull breaker.=C3=82
>
> If that is the case, what is the purpose of the IG wire, which runs from
> the bus, through the master switch, to the alternator?
>
>
> This wire WILL control the alternator as long
> as there are no failures of the electronics
> that respond to that command.
>
> To incorporate IR alternators in this manner
> on airplanes argues with legacy design rules
> driven by failure mode effects analysis that
> assumes every part will fail . . . and then
> designing a system that will mitigate that
> failure. I.E. ov protection with absolute
> control over field excitation.
>
> Using the automotive convention for IR alternators
> is acceptable in the TC world only if the
> IR electronics can be declared to have a 1
> in ten to the minus 9 failures per flight
> hour (Part 25 or higher qualifications).
> The stock automotive alternator is indeed
> VERY reliable but the process controls and
> sprinkling of holy water needed to declare
> a 1 x 10^-9 failure rate would far exceed
> the value of proposed market (see my earlier
> posting about regulatory/bureaucratic mill-stones).
>
> Hence, it's more 'practical' to convert the
> stock automotive alternator to an externally
> regulated machine (B&C approach) -OR- modify
> the IR circuitry to bring out the (+) field
> supply lead for implementation of absolute
> control (PlanePower approach).
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
On Apr 25, 2017, at 5:09 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
wrote:
> (3) Then you need to wire a USB connector with the appropriate resistor network
that tells your portable appliance that this is a high current USB power source
and it's okay to load it accordingly. I'm not cognizant of the details for
selecting these 'configuration telltale' resistors . . . perhaps someone on
the List has researched this.
I've spent an embarrassing amount of time researching it. I'll see if I can write
something up that will help to clarify it for everyone. I have a few days
off this week; I should have the time.
Eric
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: TSU'd Usb charger?? |
On 4/25/2017 9:38 PM, Eric Page wrote:
> I've spent an embarrassing amount of time researching it. I'll see if I can
write something up that will help to clarify it for everyone. I have a few days
off this week; I should have the time.
There's a Kindle book (!) on this subject, though I don't know if it's
up to date on the latest high-high current solutions and USB 3.0
Paul
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Interesting thread on overvoltage event |
Thanks for the info. My question is much more "novice". Perhaps I should
describe it a different way.
Imagine I took the B&C voltage regulator, and made it the size of a dime,
and stuffed it into an Externally regulated alternator. How would that be
different from what Denso does with their internally regulated alternator?
>From what I see from the diagrams, the VR simply decides how much V to send
out the F wire. Why would the external give more control?
Thanks for any clarity! :)
=8B
Mickey Coggins
On 25 April 2017 at 15:18, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 04:45 AM 4/25/2017, you wrote:
>
>
> One point that is not clear for me about the internal/external VR
> discussion. I apologize in advance if this has been clarified somewhere
> else and I just missed it.
>
> I don't understand why or how an external voltage regulator can safely cu
t
> the field using the crowbar method and an internal regulator cannot. If
I
> look at the wiring diagrams there does not seem to be a difference. Is i
t
> just that the external VR is more robust?
>
> Thanks for any clarity you can provide.
>
>
> The externally regulated alternator has NO electronics
> inside . . . just a rudimentary alternator.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> Interrupting the 'field input' line offers total
> control over alternator output.
>
> The internally regulated alternator has solid
> state devices that control alternator output.
> There is no field power input connection, only
> a 'control' connection that talks to the
> electronics.
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> There are failure modes INTERNAL to the alternator
> that can cause an over voltage condition . . . a
> * condition not controllable* from outside.
>
> Hence, the legacy preference for externally regulated
> alternators that allow a system integrator to include
> over voltage protection in some form. It doesn't
> have to be the 'crowbar' style . . . there are several
> satisfactory approaches.
>
> The crowbar ov module offers the simplest and most
> robust configuration but it's not intended to displace
> any other demonstrably functioning ov management system.
>
> Bob . . .
>
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