---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/06/17: 19 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:12 AM - Re: Fuse Blocks (Stuart Hutchison) 2. 02:39 AM - Re: Fuse Blocks (Art Zemon) 3. 07:56 AM - Re: Starter Solenoid Diode (William Hunter) 4. 10:42 AM - Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (Art Zemon) 5. 12:56 PM - Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 6. 01:14 PM - Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (user9253) 7. 01:35 PM - Aircraft theft prevention? (donjohnston) 8. 02:19 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (Robert McCallum) 9. 02:22 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (Tcwtech) 10. 02:29 PM - Re: Starter Solenoid Diode (user9253) 11. 02:38 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (iiNet) 12. 05:35 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (John Keen) 13. 06:07 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (donjohnston) 14. 06:25 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (David Saylor) 15. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (Art Zemon) 16. 07:01 PM - Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (ashleysc@broadstripe.net) 17. 07:26 PM - Re: Aircraft theft prevention? (ashleysc@broadstripe.net) 18. 07:43 PM - Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check (user9253) 19. 07:45 PM - Standby Alternator Wiring (Art Zemon) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:10 AM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks Sure, but two 12s = 24 more than enough :-) > On 6 Aug 2017, at 16:25, John Tipton wrote: > > "SteinAir has everything" - apparently not: they don't seem to to the 16 and 20 fuse sizes !!! > > Sent from my iPad > > ----x--O--x---- > > On 6 Aug 2017, at 05:31 am, Stuart Hutchison > wrote: > >> SteinAir has everything - http://www.steinair.com/?search_category=&s=fuse&search_posttype=pro duct >> >> Cheers, Stu >> >>> On 6 Aug 2017, at 10:16, Ron Burnett > wrote: >>> >>> Art, >>> >>> I got mine at West Marine. >>> >>> Ron Burnett >>> >>> May you have the Lord's blessings today! >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Aug 5, 2017, at 6:57 PM, Art Zemon > wrote: >>> >>>> That's exactly what I need! Thanks. >>>> >>>> -- Art Z. >>>> >>>> Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. >>>> >>>> On Aug 5, 2017 6:54 PM, "John Ciolino" > wrote: >>>> There is something simpler. See www.bandc.aero , look under electrical supplies/circuit protection devices/fuse blocks. A 20 circuit block ready to use is $30. >>>> >>>> Good luck/ >>>> >> ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:55 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fuse Blocks Perfect! I'll drive over soon. Nice 'n' convenient and I can support the local economy with my huge purchase :-) Thanks, Ron. -- Art Z. On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 7:16 PM, Ron Burnett wrote: > Art, > > I got mine at West Marine. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:38 AM PST US From: William Hunter Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter Solenoid Diode Hi All, I know everyone has been rooting for me so I figured I would post back on my progress. I tried wiring up the sensor pin using the diode as was suggested on the Dynon forum however I did not have any luck so I had to use my lifeline and called Dynon tech support and as usual they were extremely helpful. After trying different EMS settings and diode polorisation and such it appears that the only way I could get my starter contactor annunciation to work is to connect the sensor pin to the same 5/16 starter contactor output terminal that the starter motor cable is connected to... in other words the "I" terminal will not work. It seems that the sensor pin needs to see some kind of a ground for it to get "pulled down" to low and since the "I" terminal does not have any path the ground when the starter contactor is not energized there's no way I could get it to work. I'm happy that at least now my starter engaged annunciator will illuminate however after I got off the phone I am now wondering if I need some kind of protection between the starter contactor output pole and the EMS sensor wire. Anyhoo, thanks for all your help, well wishes, moments of silence, finger crossing, and other positive energy telepathic thought waves!!! Baby steps to Dynon Bliss!!! Thanks, Bill Hunter On Aug 3, 2017 9:51 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 10:38 AM 8/3/2017, you wrote: > > At 09:07 PM 8/2/2017, you wrote: > > > My Spanish uncle would call it a =9CDye-Oh-Doe=9D and I know I need one > however I do not know what value nor where to install it. > > I want an indicator on my EMS to monitor the starter motor being energize d > and a cyber friend recommended installing a 1N4004 diode on my =9CI =9D pole of > my starter solenoid to protect the Dynon EMS sensor and he drew up the > attached PDF diagram and I will certainly do as he recommends. > > The additional question iscan someone also provide me with a qui ck > schmatic of what diode I should use and where and what polarity to instal l > it to protect from electrical spikes (in the same manner as one does for > master contactors)? > > .. > > THANKS GUYSI am making progress this week (for a change)!!! > > Bill Hunter > > > Can't imagine why . . . if your EMS has inputs designed to > attach to any source of power on the airplane for the purposes > of monitoring (voltmeter input) then just tie it to the "I" > terminal directly. The diode as he as shown it would actually > prevent the EMS from seeing voltage on the "I" terminal. > > > Oh, okay. If the input port to the Dynon is NORMALLY > looking for a 0-5v signal, then yes . . . as Joe > has pointed out, a pull-up resistor on the Dynon side > of the diode is needed to raise the input to approx 5v > when the "I" terminal RISES ABOVE 5v (starter getting power > from battery). > > If, in this case, the EMS input is tailored to 0-5v > sensor inputs, then it may NOT be protected internally > for general used looked at voltages elsewhere on the > system. Do check with Dynon as to absolute maximums > that the input will tolerate. > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:15 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check Folks, Can you give me a sanity check? I am building a Bede BD-4C with an MGL EFIS. This is largely a mechanical airplane so manual trim, no gear motors, manual flaps, etc. Between the low current consumption of the EFIS and using LED lights, a backup alternator will run everything in the airplane except the pitot heater; the typical current draw is 21.57 amps and maximum is 31.49 amps. (Pitot heat adds 10 amps.) With that in mind, I plan on including a 30 amp backup alternator and no backup battery. I figure: - If the engine is turning, I will certainly have one of the two alternators operable. - If the engine is not turning, the main battery ought to keep the electrons flowing until I reach the ground. Am I missing anything? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:59 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check At 12:41 PM 8/6/2017, you wrote: >Folks, > >Can you give me a sanity check? I am building a Bede BD-4C with an >MGL EFIS. This is largely a mechanical airplane so manual trim, no >gear motors, manual flaps, etc. Between the low current consumption >of the EFIS and using LED lights, a backup alternator will run >everything in the airplane except the pitot heater; the typical >current draw is 21.57 amps and maximum is 31.49 amps. (Pitot heat >adds 10 amps.) > >With that in mind, I plan on including a 30 amp backup alternator >and no backup battery. I figure: > * If the engine is turning, I will certainly have one of the two > alternators operable. > * If the engine is not turning, the main battery ought to keep > the electrons flowing until I reach the ground. >Am I missing anything? Nope Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:14:10 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check From: "user9253" With the pitot heater shut off, I would expect the continuous current draw to be closer to 10 amps. Have you actually measured 21 amps? Regardless, the backup alternator should run everything. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471551#471551 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:35:43 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? From: "donjohnston" So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wondering if there's an alternative. Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for each mag and a push button starter switch. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:25 PM PST US From: Robert McCallum Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? If you have mags, anyone can cut the "P" leads, hand prop the engine and fly away, regardless of anything you've done short of the prop chain idea so long as fuel is available. Maybe a hidden locking fuel valve. Be careful, as this may not prevent the engine starting and there might be just enough residual fuel in the lines to get airborne before the engine quits. The prop chain has the added benefit of being a visible deterrent so they won't even try, but rather go to an easier target. Bob McC > > ---------- Original Message ---------- > From: donjohnston > Date: August 6, 2017 at 4:35 PM > > > > > So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough > to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... > > But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from > starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. > > Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wondering > if there's an alternative. > > Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for each > mag and a push button starter switch. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:05 PM PST US From: Tcwtech Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? You may want to check out a product we sell called SmartStart. It allows for a hidden arming switch that when pressed gives you 1 minute to crank the engine. It works with the standard start contactor, can interface to a push button switch or standard key switch. It also listens to interlock switches that must be closed before arming can occur Www.tcwtech.com Bob Newman TCW Technologies, LLC 610-928-3420 > On Aug 6, 2017, at 4:35 PM, donjohnston wrote: > > > So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... > > But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. > > Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wondering if there's an alternative. > > Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for each mag and a push button starter switch. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:31 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starter Solenoid Diode From: "user9253" Since no one else has replied, I will give it a shot. I do not know if the EMS input needs protection or not. But if you want to add protection, the attached pdf should work. The left diode blocks aircraft current from flowing into the EMS input. The diode on the right shorts out any induced voltage spike. The two 500 ohm resistors divide starter voltage in half. The bottom resistor also provides a ground path to pull the EMS input voltage low (to about 0.25 V) when the contactor is not energized. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471555#471555 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/starter_status_124.pdf ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:49 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? From: iiNet Take a look at the TCM Smart Start Don. Kind Regards, Stu Sent from my iPhone > On 7 Aug 2017, at 07:18, Robert McCallum w rote: > > If you have mags, anyone can cut the "P" leads, hand prop the engine and f ly away, regardless of anything you've done short of the prop chain idea so l ong as fuel is available. Maybe a hidden locking fuel valve. Be careful, as t his may not prevent the engine starting and there might be just enough resid ual fuel in the lines to get airborne before the engine quits. The prop chai n has the added benefit of being a visible deterrent so they won't even try, but rather go to an easier target. > > Bob McC > >> ---------- Original Message ---------- >> From: donjohnston >> Date: August 6, 2017 at 4:35 PM >> >> om> >> >> So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... >> >> But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from startin g? Other that the big chain prop locks. >> >> Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wonderin g if there's an alternative. >> >> Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for eac h mag and a push button starter switch. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:32 PM PST US From: John Keen Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? I have a keyed master, and the starter button won't work without the master. But I guess the aircraft could be hand propped as the mags are both on toggle switches. John Keen 0412 141 833 > On 7 Aug 2017, at 06:35, donjohnston wrote: > > > So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... > > But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. > > Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wondering if there's an alternative. > > Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for each mag and a push button starter switch. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:36 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Aircraft theft prevention? From: "donjohnston" Not an option for me as I have a 24v electrical system. rnewman(at)tcwtech.com wrote: > You may want to check out a product we sell called SmartStart. It allows for a hidden arming switch that when pressed gives you 1 minute to crank the engine. It works with the standard start contactor, can interface to a push button switch or standard key switch. It also listens to interlock switches that must be closed before arming can occur > > Www.tcwtech.com > > > Bob Newman > TCW Technologies, LLC > 610-928-3420 > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471564#471564 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:08 PM PST US From: David Saylor Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? With the understanding that additional layers add complexity and reduce reliability, you could wire your master switch in series with another ubiquitous toggle far from the master, and label it something like "Safety/Normal". Speaking of extra switches, I had a customer with several planes who put a landing gear switch in his Glasair FT. Just so he didn't get out of the habit! --Dave On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 1:35 PM, donjohnston wrote: > don@velocity-xl.com> > > So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough > to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... > > But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from > starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. > > Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm > wondering if there's an alternative. > > Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for > each mag and a push button starter switch. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:54 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check Joe, See the Amps table on my electrical system overview diagram . It comes to 21.57 amps typical, 31.49 amps maximum. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, user9253 wrote: > > With the pitot heater shut off, I would expect the continuous current draw > to be closer to 10 amps. Have you actually measured 21 amps? Regardless, > the backup alternator should run everything. > > -------- > Joe Gores -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:29 PM PST US From: ashleysc@broadstripe.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check Hi Art; For what it's worth, I have two 20 amp, internally regulated, permanent magnet alternators and one battery. Caution: System is untried at this time. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Art Zemon" Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 10:41:33 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check Folks, Can you give me a sanity check? I am building a Bede BD-4C with an MGL EFIS. This is largely a mechanical airplane so manual trim, no gear motors, manual flaps, etc. Between the low current consumption of the EFIS and using LED lights, a backup alternator will run everything in the airplane except the pitot heater; the typical current draw is 21.57 amps and maximum is 31.49 amps. (Pitot heat adds 10 amps.) With that in mind, I plan on including a 30 amp backup alternator and no backup battery. I figure: * If the engine is turning, I will certainly have one of the two alternators operable. * If the engine is not turning, the main battery ought to keep the electrons flowing until I reach the ground. Am I missing anything? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:20 PM PST US From: ashleysc@broadstripe.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? Hi Don; How about a second switch (toggle or rocker) in series with your start button, on the panel or elsewhere, whose function is not called out? Cheers! Stu. PS: I only have a start button, but my canopy locks. ----- Original Message ----- From: "donjohnston" Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 1:35:09 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Aircraft theft prevention? So with the understanding that most aircraft security is only good enough to keep honest folks from running off with your airplane... But does anyone have any ideas on ways to prevent the engine from starting? Other that the big chain prop locks. Early on, I was considering second, hidden mag switches. But I'm wondering if there's an alternative. Note: I do not have a keyed ignition switch. Just a toggle switch for each mag and a push button starter switch. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471552#471552 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:20 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Backup Alternator / Backup Battery Sanity Check From: "user9253" Art, I see what you mean. It will be interesting to see how measured current compares to calculated current. You have nice neat documentation. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471573#471573 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:41 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Standby Alternator Wiring Folks (esp. Bob), I want to include a B&C standby alternator system bundle in my plane. I am looking at figure Z-12, which calls for a B&C SB-1 controller. Is the SB1B-14 in the current bundle a straight replacement? Does the bundle come with a diagram to update/replace Z-12? If I understand Z-12 correctly, I need a switch for the standby alternator on/off. I do not see a switch for the main alternator on/off. What would happen if I were to turn on the standby alternator while the main alternator is operating? Would anything be damaged? Thanks, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.