AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Wed 08/09/17


Total Messages Posted: 17



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 04:59 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Charlie England)
     2. 05:25 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (user9253)
     3. 06:38 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Kelly McMullen)
     4. 09:02 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 09:13 AM - Re: Fuse Blocks (Bill Watson)
     6. 09:17 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     7. 10:05 AM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Sebastien)
     8. 10:27 AM - Re: Analog electric clock with a relay circuit for battery capacity test (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 10:43 AM - 1pc High Quality Large Size ANL Fuse Gold Plated Spade For Car 40Amp to 400Amp | eBay (John Tipton)
    10. 12:40 PM - Re: Fuse Blocks (user9253)
    11. 12:50 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    12. 02:47 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Sebastien)
    13. 02:48 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Sebastien)
    14. 07:47 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    15. 08:20 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Sebastien)
    16. 08:45 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Charlie England)
    17. 09:03 PM - Re: Questions for the alternator mavens (Sebastien)
 
 
 


Message 1


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 04:59:33 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    Uh, Charlie England did not write that...... On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 10:58 PM, Paul Millner <millner@me.com> wrote: > > > On 8/8/2017 4:20 PM, Charlie England wrote: > >> on these automotive voltage regulators, is it possible to adjust the >> voltage high enough to keep an Odyssey battery happy? >> > > You can always accomplish that if you put a voltage divider in front of > the sense terminal of the regulator... say it's an 95%/5% divider... if the > regulator's setpoint is 14 volts, you'll fool it into providing 14.7 volts. > If you really want to get fancy, use a linear potentiometer in series with > a fixed resistor to fine tune the voltage. Provide some means for locking > the pot's shaft in place! > > Paul > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>


    Message 2


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 05:25:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    There could be a number of causes of low alternator output, shorted alternator coils, defective regulator, high resistance in the field or stator circuits. Start checking for the most likely problem first: a poor electrical connection. > Is there a failure mode for regulator or alternator that would lead to a voltage too low to charge the battery but too high to discharge it? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471661#471661


    Message 3


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 06:38:51 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    From: Kelly McMullen <kellym@aviating.com>
    This discussion has me wondering if the Odyssey really needs that high a set point. I've moved from an old 50 amp generator on previous plane, well controlled by a Zeftronics regulator at 14.1 volts, charging a Concorde RG AGM type battery to a life of at least a year longer than wet acid batteries lasted in same climate, same use. I don't recall seeing any any set point change in that regulator in the 15 yrs or so I had that plane. New OBAM plane has Plane Power alternator with Odyssey 925L. Is the Odyssey not a variant of the AGM technology? Seems like most battery chargers labeled for AGM use limit voltage to around 14.2-14.5 unless they are made for specific brands of batteries that specify something else. I don't recall my Odyssey charger going above those numbers either. Discussion is particularly relevant to my Aridzona climate, where ambient temps in hangars often reach the upper temp limit for battery charging, and some companies suggest 13.8 +/- .1 to keep from overheating battery. I recall cold climates allow substantially higher voltages since the batteries stay cool. On 8/8/2017 10:11 PM, Sebastien wrote: > Hello Bob, > I see the Odyssey literature states: > > Alternators that do not have a regulated charge between 14.0V and 14.7V > (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause early failure > of the Battery > > So I guess an automotive one set to 14.3 +- 0.2, while at the low end, > still meets this requirement. Perhaps checking the battery voltage at > every oil change to make sure it's being charged to 100% might be a good > idea? >


    Message 4


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:02:36 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    At 12:11 AM 8/9/2017, you wrote: >Hello Bob, > >I'm ashamed to say I don't know with any precision. My portable GPS >typically sees voltages of 13.9-13.7 but that is after a couple >busses and fuse holder and connector and such. The voltage drops between the bus and the indicating instrument should be insignificant . . . under 100 mV. Voltage drops in the fat-wire system are considered to be essentially zero in cruising flight. So if your voltage AT THE BUS us that low, then indeed, your battery has been under-serviced. > The analog voltmeter bounces all over the place with the engine > running but seems to read very approximately 13.5 to 14 normally. I > remember putting a digital voltmeter on the main bus in flight when > I first bought the aircraft to check why the analog one was > bouncing and it was a steady something that seemed normal but I > don't remember what. I should have checked it when I installed the > Odyssey battery but it was never done. As you are fond of pointing > out, "battery can start engine" is not a battery check so I was > planning on taking it in next week during the annual inspection. > >Curious that you say the Cessnas were 14.2 +- 0.2. When I was >learning to fly I seem to remember the green arc for voltage was >13.8-14.6. Don't know where that number came from or if I am >remembering it correctly. Yeah . . . you're correct. Unfortunately, the green arc only spoke to "alternator is functioning" and not to "voltage regulator is tending to the battery". Further, depending on the age of the airplane, some of the gages for system instrumentation were Rochester automotive with no better accuracy than those in my first car . . . 1941 Pontiac coupe. >I see the Odyssey literature states: > >Alternators that do not have a regulated charge between 14.0V and >14.7V (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause >early failure of the Battery Yup, but 'early failure' is non-quantitative. Published performance numbers are gathered in a lab under cntrolled, repeated experimental conditions. I.e. the devices under test cannot be tested under conditions that duplicate the vagaries of field operations in any vehicle. Premature failure can be interpreted as about anything between belly-up-in-a-month out to exercising-a-24-month- warranty claim. >So I guess an automotive one set to 14.3 +- 0.2, while at the low >end, still meets this requirement. Perhaps checking the battery >voltage at every oil change to make sure it's being charged to 100% >might be a good idea? Sure doesn't hurt . . . but it's doubtful that your v.r. is going to demonstrate observable 'drift' . . . >The local battery shop is going to test the battery in the morning >after an overnight charge so I won't know until then if the battery is ok. How do your charge your batteries on the bench? > After reinstalling it or a new one I will get a voltmeter on the > battery with the engine running and see what the alternator is > delivering. My home airport is a 25 minute flight away from my > present location and the weather is good so I'm planning on flying > home with or without the charging system working tomorrow. I've got a couple of these things on order for evaulation. http://tinyurl.com/y7ogz8sq There are low cost devices with more resolution available but they mount in rectangular (ugh) holes. These critters seem a good candidate for replacement of a round steam gage in a 2-1/4" hole with simple filler plate. Voltmeters need to READ THE BUS which means tied onto the fat-wire system at some handy spot. The fuse block is good. Bob . . .


    Message 5


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:13:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuse Blocks
    From: Bill Watson <Mauledriver@nc.rr.com>
    That's what I used and here are some pics of the mounting. I have a Z-14 design (2 batts, buses, alts) so each fuse block is on a different side. I should have just put 2 big ones in - handy for loading balancing later when the truth becomes evident. Fuse Blocks - Mounted <http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=4043&log=64539&row=1> I ordered my interior side panel with 2 cutouts and used a piece of lexan with hook&loop to cover over it. There's enough room to number fuses on the fuse block. Bill "electrical fault free 6 years later" Watson On 8/5/2017 7:57 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > That's exactly what I need! Thanks. > > -- Art Z. > > Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. > > On Aug 5, 2017 6:54 PM, "John Ciolino" <JohnCiolino@carolina.rr.com > <mailto:JohnCiolino@carolina.rr.com>> wrote: > > There is something simpler. See www.bandc.aero > <http://www.bandc.aero>, look under electrical supplies/circuit > protection devices/fuse blocks. A 20 circuit block ready to use is > $30. > > Good luck/ > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus


    Message 6


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:17:32 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    At 10:58 PM 8/8/2017, you wrote: > > >On 8/8/2017 4:20 PM, Charlie England wrote: >>on these automotive voltage regulators, is it possible to adjust >>the voltage high enough to keep an Odyssey battery happy? > >You can always accomplish that if you put a voltage divider in front >of the sense terminal of the regulator... say it's an 95%/5% >divider... if the regulator's setpoint is 14 volts, you'll fool it >into providing 14.7 volts. If you really want to get fancy, use a >linear potentiometer in series with a fixed resistor to fine tune >the voltage. Provide some means for locking the pot's shaft in place! Unfortunately, there are few if not zero automotive regulators with separate sense leads. I don't recall if Sebastian told us what kind of regulator he was using . . . but you're right. I've used that work-around. On one occasion, I was able to up-adjust an automotive 3 wire regulator by putting a diode in series with the field-supply/bus-sense lead. Of course, this raised the bus by about 0.6 volts . . . which in this case was appropriate. Had a reader try to up-adjust a 3-terminal regulator with a resistor but he ended up duplicating the galloping-ammeter syndrome. Waayyyy back when, I opened up one of the 4-terminal 'ford' regulators and researched the voltage-set divider. I brought a 'steering' lead out on the unused "I" terminal for an external voltage adjust pot. One could repeat that exercise . . . as long as the bus-to-regulator resistance is low (usually no problem except in old Cessnas and Pipers), these automotive regulators are good value. Incorporating the pot would add a quantum jump to their suitability to task. Emacs! Here's one version of the VR166 after market regulators but not the one I "jeeped". As soon as I've got about 4 other projects off the bench, I'll see I can repeat the exercise on a newer device. Bob . . .


    Message 7


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:05:41 AM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it. How do your charge your batteries on the bench? Right now I don't. I will be doing my annual inspection next week and setting something up to do so is on the list. I wasn't going to bother the list about how to do this as I'm sure the archives have all the info I need . Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but only put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150. All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back into the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternator voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and get them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulator is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not so much. The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jacket is 80=C2=B0C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft with Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I should look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the battery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment? On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 9:01 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 12:11 AM 8/9/2017, you wrote: > > Hello Bob, > > I'm ashamed to say I don't know with any precision. My portable GPS > typically sees voltages of 13.9-13.7 but that is after a couple busses an d > fuse holder and connector and such. > > > The voltage drops between the bus and the indicating > instrument should be insignificant . . . under 100 > mV. Voltage drops in the fat-wire system are considered > to be essentially zero in cruising flight. So if your > voltage AT THE BUS us that low, then indeed, your battery > has been under-serviced. > > The analog voltmeter bounces all over the place with the engine running > but seems to read very approximately 13.5 to 14 normally. I remember > putting a digital voltmeter on the main bus in flight when I first bought > the aircraft to check why the analog one was bouncing and it was a steady > something that seemed normal but I don't remember what. I should have > checked it when I installed the Odyssey battery but it was never done. As > you are fond of pointing out, "battery can start engine" is not a battery > check so I was planning on taking it in next week during the annual > inspection. > > Curious that you say the Cessnas were 14.2 +- 0.2. When I was learning to > fly I seem to remember the green arc for voltage was 13.8-14.6. Don't kno w > where that number came from or if I am remembering it correctly. > > > Yeah . . . you're correct. Unfortunately, the > green arc only spoke to "alternator is functioning" > and not to "voltage regulator is tending to the > battery". Further, depending on the age of the > airplane, some of the gages for system instrumentation > were Rochester automotive with no better accuracy > than those in my first car . . . 1941 Pontiac coupe. > > > I see the Odyssey literature states: > > Alternators that do not have a regulated charge between 14.0V and 14.7V > (no lower than 14.0V and no higher than 14.7V) will cause early failure o f > the Battery > > > Yup, but 'early failure' is non-quantitative. Published > performance numbers are gathered in a lab under cntrolled, > repeated experimental conditions. I.e. the devices under > test cannot be tested under conditions that duplicate > the vagaries of field operations in any vehicle. > > Premature failure can be interpreted as about anything > between belly-up-in-a-month out to exercising-a-24-month- > warranty claim. > > > So I guess an automotive one set to 14.3 +- 0.2, while at the low end, > still meets this requirement. Perhaps checking the battery voltage at eve ry > oil change to make sure it's being charged to 100% might be a good idea? > > > Sure doesn't hurt . . . but it's doubtful that > your v.r. is going to demonstrate observable > 'drift' . . . > > > The local battery shop is going to test the battery in the morning after > an overnight charge so I won't know until then if the battery is ok. > > > How do your charge your batteries on the bench? > > > After reinstalling it or a new one I will get a voltmeter on the battery > with the engine running and see what the alternator is delivering. My hom e > airport is a 25 minute flight away from my present location and the weath er > is good so I'm planning on flying home with or without the charging syste m > working tomorrow. > > > I've got a couple of these things on order for > evaulation. > > http://tinyurl.com/y7ogz8sq > > There are low cost devices with more resolution > available but they mount in rectangular (ugh) > holes. These critters seem a good candidate > for replacement of a round steam gage in a > 2-1/4" hole with simple filler plate. > > Voltmeters need to READ THE BUS which > means tied onto the fat-wire system at > some handy spot. The fuse block is good. > > > Bob . . . >


    Message 8


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:27:08 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Analog electric clock with a relay circuit for
    battery capacity test At 06:28 PM 8/8/2017, you wrote: >Bob, > >Some time ago you posted a simple circuit for >doing an approximation of battery >capacity.=C2 The circuit consisted of an analog >electric clock to measure the time required to >discharge a battery, through a light bulb, down >to 10 volts.=C2 I would like to build one of >these to use as an annual battery condition >test.=C2 Can you direct me to where I might find information on how to make one? Yeah . . . that was a pretty crude, first pass at a po' boy's cap checker. That article can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/ybvx57bu There's a more accurate and convenient version of that project in the works but the device in the article will produce good benchmark numbers for your battery's 'stage of service life'. Bob . . .


    Message 9


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 10:43:08 AM PST US
    Subject: 1pc High Quality Large Size ANL Fuse Gold Plated Spade
    For Car 40Amp to 400Amp | eBay
    From: John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com>
    Dear 'Electric Bob' Can these units be expected to operate as expected, given their ridiculously low price (including delivery) - compared with items costing $15.00/17.00 plus delivery/taxes from Steinair/B&C http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1pc-High-Quality-Large-Size-ANL-Fuse-Gold-Plated-Spade-For-Car-40Amp-to-400Amp-/282545294280?var=&hash=item41c9030bc8:m:myqxpMRBBYOwFiFID1N0DWQ Your wise words and wisdom, appreciated Regards John Sent from my iPad ----x--O--x----


    Message 10


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:40:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Fuse Blocks
    From: "user9253" <fransew@gmail.com>
    I purchased a Busman 14 fuse block. I did not like the density (fuses too far apart), the way the terminals protruded from the sides taking up panel space, and the way that the fuse sockets grip the fuses (weak grip). So I made my own fuse block using a PCB and fuse clips. Search the web for "Keystone 3522". My fuse holder has 18 fuses, 2 of which are spares. The wires exit straight out the back. The 8 small screws define the perimeter of the fuse block behind the panel. My rule is to never replace a fuse while flying and never with the master switch turned on. The fuse block is mounted in the lower right hand corner of the instrument panel in front of the passenger. The fuses glow when blown, except the 2 amp. Vans sells the glow fuses. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=471680#471680 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/dsc00666c_135.jpg


    Message 11


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 12:50:05 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    >If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any >shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it. > > >=C2 =C2 How do your charge your batteries on the bench? > > >Right now I don't. How did your battery get charged overnight? >Called the battery shop this morning. The >battery charged to 13.3 but only put out 101 >amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150. The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts. The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number that Odyssey would get in their lab. We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these: Emacs! AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current at 9v. A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the 500-700 amp range. >All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange >behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way >to the airport, going to put the same battery >back into the aircraft, check all connections >and then start it and check alternator voltage. >My father swears the best alternator shop in the >world is here in town and insists we should take >the alternator and regulator to them and get >them to check it rather than just swapping >parts. We'll see, a new regulator is pretty >cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not so much. Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings on the bus before you replace anything. I think it unlikely that the alternator is bad . . . or even that you've go bad wiring. But let's get some good numbers first. Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll suggest further than you acquire a capable battery charger/maintainer . . . I've owned several of these critters: http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26 They do a charge profile like this following by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the charger connected indefinitely. Emacs! >The Odyssey manual also states max operating >temperature with a metal jacket is 80=C2=B0C. My >installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft >with Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall >but I'm wondering if perhaps I should look into >this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to >measure the battery temperature or the engine >compartment temperature during flight. In the >last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest >weather we get around here and can't help but >wonder if this has anything to do with this >problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment? Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment, recording and publishing the data would be a really useful thing to do. Bob . . .


    Message 12


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:47:13 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    I don't know what charger was used at the battery shop. Free battery tests s o you get what you pay for I think. I cannot vouch for the quality of anythi ng they did. They did not seem very knowledgeable about AGM batteries as the y suggested that the proper way to charge is at 2A or less... Anyway, plugged my digital multimeter (again accuracy unknown $3 from Harbou r Freight) onto the battery after sitting for 2 hours: 12.2V. Couldn't find a ny loose wires in the alternator system but did find one ground cable half w orn through at the connector. Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. N o indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery. I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. I'm at the lake now for a swim and l eft the battery on my dad's old charger to do whatever it can. I'm going to fly the plane home tonight and I think, get a new battery and r egulator. I did manage to get a picture of the alternator data plate though I can't qu ite make out the model number. I'm going to try attaching a picture of it an d the regulator in another email. Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will do t he thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data. Sebastien > On Aug 9, 2017, at 12:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > >> If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any >> shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it. >> >> >> =C3=82 =C3=82 How do your charge your batteries on the bench? >> >> >> Right now I don't. > > How did your battery get charged overnight? > > >> Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but onl y put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150. > > The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for > a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the > battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged > SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts. > > The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery > condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those > hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses > to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number > that Odyssey would get in their lab. > > We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly > constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it > down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these: > > <2725971.jpg> > > AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current > at 9v. > > A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the > 500-700 amp range. > >> All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back in to the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternato r voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and ge t them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulat or is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not s o much. > > Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings > on the bus before you replace anything. > I think it unlikely that the alternator > is bad . . . or even that you've go > bad wiring. > > But let's get some good numbers first. > Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll > suggest further than you acquire a capable > battery charger/maintainer . . . > > I've owned several of these critters: > > http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26 > > They do a charge profile like this following > by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the > charger connected indefinitely. > > > > > > > >> The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jac ket is 80=C3=82=C2=B0C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft wi th Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I s hould look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the bat tery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment? > > Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for > cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the > battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that > high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment, > recording and publishing the data would be a really > useful thing to do. > > > Bob . . .


    Message 13


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 02:48:18 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    Sebastien > On Aug 9, 2017, at 12:49, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > >> If your evaluation comes up with a good low cost voltmeter for any >> shape hole I'll look forward to hearing about it. >> >> >> =C3=82 =C3=82 How do your charge your batteries on the bench? >> >> >> Right now I don't. > > How did your battery get charged overnight? > > >> Called the battery shop this morning. The battery charged to 13.3 but onl y put out 101 amps cranking. Odyssey says PC545 CCA is 150. > > The 13.3 number is suspect . . . open circuit voltage for > a fully charged battery needs to be measured after the > battery has been 'rested' for 4-6 hours. A fully charged > SVLA at room temperature will show just under 13.0 volts. > > The 101 cranking value MAY be a good indicator of battery > condition . . . but if it was measured with one of those > hand-held battery analyzer thingies like WalMart uses > to sell you new batteries, it won't be the same number > that Odyssey would get in their lab. > > We measure 'cranking current' by placing as nearly > constant a load on the battery high enough to pull it > down to 9 volts. It takes a critter like one of these: > > > > AT THE END OF 15 SECONDS, read the load current > at 9v. > > A new 18a.h. SVLA will produce readings in the > 500-700 amp range. > >> All of which doesn't explain the sudden strange behaviour of the charging system. I'm on my way to the airport, going to put the same battery back in to the aircraft, check all connections and then start it and check alternato r voltage. My father swears the best alternator shop in the world is here in town and insists we should take the alternator and regulator to them and ge t them to check it rather than just swapping parts. We'll see, a new regulat or is pretty cheap compared to troubleshooting charges. New alternator not s o much. > > Let's get ACCURATE voltage readings > on the bus before you replace anything. > I think it unlikely that the alternator > is bad . . . or even that you've go > bad wiring. > > But let's get some good numbers first. > Do you own a digital multimeter? I'll > suggest further than you acquire a capable > battery charger/maintainer . . . > > I've owned several of these critters: > > http://tinyurl.com/ybkvfa26 > > They do a charge profile like this following > by a maintenance mode that lets you leave the > charger connected indefinitely. > > > > > > > >> The Odyssey manual also states max operating temperature with a metal jac ket is 80=C3=82=C2=B0C. My installation is very similar to Van's Aircraft wi th Odyssey batteries mounted on the firewall but I'm wondering if perhaps I s hould look into this as well. Perhaps figure out some way to measure the bat tery temperature or the engine compartment temperature during flight. In the last week I've put 8 hours flying in the hottest weather we get around here and can't help but wonder if this has anything to do with this problem. Has anyone ever done this experiment? > > Maybe a problem . . . 80C is 160F . . . pretty hot for > cruising flight. If you stuck a thermocouple on the > battery box I doubt you'd see temperatures that > high . . . if you're willing to do the experiment, > recording and publishing the data would be a really > useful thing to do. > > > Bob . . .


    Message 14


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 07:47:52 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    > Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage > goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication > on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery. Sounds like the regulator is factory spec. > >I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up >at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. Oops . . . the battery is toast. Any SVLA battery that spends much time over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . . if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's beyond defibrillation. >Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I >will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward >temperature data. Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers on that battery don't sound good. Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal, like the one I linked for you earlier today. But it sounds like the one you have is just fine. Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps? What engine are we talking about? Bob . . .


    Message 15


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:20:23 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would l ike to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 eng ines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, I'm b orrowing someone else's aircraft :). The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to 14.15 a gain and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes later. No a mount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) had any effe ct on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off momentarily d id fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2. Ammeter not showing any char ge going into the battery. Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12. 76. So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine i n general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered the b attery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty tomorrow but we'll see. Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop. Thank you all for all your advice and information. Sebastien > On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectr ic.com> wrote: > >> Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes t o 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery. > > Sounds like the regulator is factory spec. > >> >> I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at 1 7.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. > > Oops . . . the battery is toast. > Any SVLA battery that spends much time > over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . . > if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's > beyond defibrillation. > >> Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will d o the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature data. > > Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like > vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers > on that battery don't sound good. > > Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal, > like the one I linked for you earlier today. > But it sounds like the one you have is just fine. > > Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps? > What engine are we talking about? > > Bob . . .


    Message 16


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 08:45:54 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    I'm not sure how to phrase this, but are you sure about what your ammeter is telling you? There are numerous ways to wire an ammeter in an a/c, and how it's wired will drive what it tells you. Even if it's wired to show charge/discharge from the battery, *if the battery is already fully charged*, it won't show any current flowing to the battery. On 8/9/2017 10:19 PM, Sebastien wrote: > The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I > would like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather > radar and 2 engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions > require a panel, I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft :). > > The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. > I left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage > went to 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down > 45 minutes later. No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, > and all lights) had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. > Turning the battery off momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not > more than 0.2. Ammeter not showing any charge going into the battery. > Battery voltage 15 minutes after shutdown was 12.76. > > So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is > fine in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to > order one of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why > not? I ordered the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to > get warranty tomorrow but we'll see. > > Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop. > > Thank you all for all your advice and information. > > Sebastien > > On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com <mailto:nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>> > wrote: > >>> Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage >>> goes to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication >>> on the ammeter that any charge is going into the battery. >> >> Sounds like the regulator is factory spec. >> >>> >>> I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up >>> at 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. >> >> Oops . . . the battery is toast. >> Any SVLA battery that spends much time >> over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . . >> if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's >> beyond defibrillation. >> >>> Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I >>> will do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward >>> temperature data. >> >> Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like >> vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers >> on that battery don't sound good. >> >> Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal, >> like the one I linked for you earlier today. >> But it sounds like the one you have is just fine. >> >> Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps? >> What engine are we talking about? >> >> Bob . . . >> --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus


    Message 17


  • INDEX
  • Back to Main INDEX
  • PREVIOUS
  • Skip to PREVIOUS Message
  • NEXT
  • Skip to NEXT Message
  • LIST
  • Reply to LIST Regarding this Message
  • SENDER
  • Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message
    Time: 09:03:27 PM PST US
    From: Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Questions for the alternator mavens
    Hello Charlie. The ammeter, voltmeter, and battery were all acting normally for the first 6 hours of a 8.5 hour vacation. Left the plane for 3 days, came back and battery was completely dead (11V) with no obvious reason. Hand propped the aircraft, alternator voltage was normal but ammeter showed little to no charge. Flew 2 hours and checked the battery, it was just over 12V which is less than 50% charge. So I have nothing to confirm what the ammeter is telling me except that after the ammeter showed no current flowing to the battery, the battery wasn't charged. On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 8:48 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm not sure how to phrase this, but are you sure about what your ammeter > is telling you? There are numerous ways to wire an ammeter in an a/c, and > how it's wired will drive what it tells you. Even if it's wired to show > charge/discharge from the battery, *if the battery is already fully > charged*, it won't show any current flowing to the battery. > > > On 8/9/2017 10:19 PM, Sebastien wrote: > > The electrical system in my aircraft is definitely optional. While I would > like to have a full IFR and ice capable aircraft with weather radar and 2 > engines, what I have is a day VFR BD-4. If the conditions require a panel, > I'm borrowing someone else's aircraft :). > > The battery did manage to start the engine which I was not expecting. I > left the digital voltmeter plugged in for the flight and voltage went to > 14.15 again and drifted down to 14.01 by the time I shut down 45 minutes > later. No amount of load available (fuel pump, pitot heat, and all lights) > had any effect on the bus voltage, even momentary. Turning the battery off > momentarily did fluctuate the voltage but not more than 0.2. Ammeter not > showing any charge going into the battery. Battery voltage 15 minutes after > shutdown was 12.76. > > So I think the battery is completely toast and the charging system is fine > in general and fine specifically for this battery. I am going to order one > of those regulators as a spare because at that price, why not? I ordered > the battery from Aircraft Spruce so I'm going to try to get warranty > tomorrow but we'll see. > > Engine is O-320 160HP with Sky Tec NL starter and wood prop. > > Thank you all for all your advice and information. > > Sebastien > > On Aug 9, 2017, at 19:47, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > Plugged the battery into the aircraft and hand propped it, voltage goes > to 14.15 as soon as the alternator comes online. No indication on the > ammeter that any charge is going into the battery. > > > Sounds like the regulator is factory spec. > > > I took the battery home and put it on a charger. With the voltage up at > 17.5 the battery is taking in less than 3A. > > > Oops . . . the battery is toast. > Any SVLA battery that spends much time > over 15 volts is crying for mercy . . . > if it's down to 3A at 17.5, it's > beyond defibrillation. > > Any data I should collect on the flight home? At some future date I will > do the thermocouple thing and collect some firewall forward temperature > data. > > > Are you good flying 'dead panel' . . . like > vfr contact with a map or gps? The numbers > on that battery don't sound good. > > Your regulator is the legacy 'ford' four-terminal, > like the one I linked for you earlier today. > But it sounds like the one you have is just fine. > > Your battery is 'rated' for 150 cranking amps? > What engine are we talking about? > > Bob . . . > > > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon> Virus-free. > www.avast.com > <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link> > <#m_2371770414848889934_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> >




    Other Matronics Email List Services

  • Post A New Message
  •   aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
  • UN/SUBSCRIBE
  •   http://www.matronics.com/subscription
  • List FAQ
  •   http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm
  • Web Forum Interface To Lists
  •   http://forums.matronics.com
  • Matronics List Wiki
  •   http://wiki.matronics.com
  • 7-Day List Browse
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list
  • Browse AeroElectric-List Digests
  •   http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list
  • Browse Other Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/browse
  • Live Online Chat!
  •   http://www.matronics.com/chat
  • Archive Downloading
  •   http://www.matronics.com/archives
  • Photo Share
  •   http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
  • Other Email Lists
  •   http://www.matronics.com/emaillists
  • Contributions
  •   http://www.matronics.com/contribution

    These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.

    -- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --