---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/29/17: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:11 AM - Re: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness (Art Zemon) 2. 05:29 AM - Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness (Art Zemon) 3. 05:47 AM - Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness (user9253) 4. 05:51 AM - Re: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness (Charlie England) 5. 06:12 AM - Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? (user9253) 6. 06:27 AM - Re: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness (Brian Lester) 7. 06:29 AM - Shield Grounding (Art Zemon) 8. 06:29 AM - Re: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 06:34 AM - Re: Shield Grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 07:07 AM - Re: Shield Grounding (Art Zemon) 11. 08:32 AM - Re: Shield Grounding (Charlie England) 12. 08:36 AM - Re: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? (Eric Page) 13. 09:03 AM - Re: Shield Grounding (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 14. 09:19 AM - Re: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 15. 09:48 AM - Re: Shield Grounding (Art Zemon) 16. 11:42 AM - Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? (Eric Page) 17. 06:06 PM - Re: Silent-Hektik Regulator (user9253) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:33 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness Jon, This is very disturbing. How much time? All of the wiring that I already have in the plane has been labeled with Sharpies on white heat shrink. I can still relabel a bunch of it if necessary. -- Art Z. On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 5:30 PM, jonlaury wrote: > Over time, I found the text made with fine pt Sharpie on white heat shrink > fades/runs. Wish I had stayed with my original method of inkjet printed on > white paper then cut into strips to be inserted inside clear heat shrink. > They are crisp and legible, years later. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:12 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness Thank you, everybody! Lots of good ideas, some I already am doing and some are new. I had not thought of actually mounting my instrument panel on the bench, wiring it from the back, and testing it before installing in the plane. I will definitely do that. Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:47:57 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness From: "user9253" I have not used a Sharpie to mark wires. But I have used a Sharpie to mark other stuff and agree that it will fade over time, depending on the material and length of time. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472298#472298 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:34 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness Interesting result. Seems to demonstrate a principle I always try to remember with homebuilt activities: Any variation in materials, techniques, etc can vary outcome. For a labeling 'variation', I've got a cheap Brother P-touch PT-530 label printer. Configuring it for minimal label waste isn't possible, so I've used some of the wasted material to hand-label with a black Sharpie brand pen. To test, I left one outdoors, in the MS sun, for over a month, with no issues. A strange idiosyncrasy of the label material is that it sticks tenaciously to almost any surface, but when you fold it around a wire, it doesn't want to stick to itself. (?) After a few days, almost every label I initially applied to wires had either dropped off, or was just barely hanging on where the bend point touched the wire. I can't remember how I discovered this, but if I press one half of the sticky surface on my finger (which almost always has a bit of dust/dirt on it while working), and then re-fold the label onto itself, it never releases again. So now, any time I'm labeling wires, I press half the sticky surface on a finger before folding it over a wire. Works fine; seems to last a long time. Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Jon, > > This is very disturbing. How much time? All of the wiring that I already > have in the plane has been labeled with Sharpies on white heat shrink. I > can still relabel a bunch of it if necessary. > > -- Art Z. > > On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 5:30 PM, jonlaury wrote: > >> Over time, I found the text made with fine pt Sharpie on white heat >> shrink fades/runs. Wish I had stayed with my original method of inkjet >> printed on white paper then cut into strips to be inserted inside clear >> heat shrink. They are crisp and legible, years later. >> > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:12:12 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? From: "user9253" What if a solid state relay and a mechanical relay are connected in parallel? The solid state relay will turn on a fraction of a second prior to the mechanical contacts closing and will conduct while the mechanical contacts are bouncing. Once the mechanical contacts have stopped bouncing, then they will carry the full load. Or use only a solid state relay rated for the current. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472301#472301 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:27:08 AM PST US From: Brian Lester Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Tips for Building a Wiring Harness I have used clear heat shrink tube over brother labels to deal with issues of the labels falling off or not sticking well for network cabling. Plan to do the same in my airplane when I get to that point. On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:58 AM Charlie England wrote: > Interesting result. Seems to demonstrate a principle I always try to > remember with homebuilt activities: Any variation in materials, techniques, > etc can vary outcome. > > For a labeling 'variation', I've got a cheap Brother P-touch PT-530 label > printer. Configuring it for minimal label waste isn't possible, so I've > used some of the wasted material to hand-label with a black Sharpie brand > pen. To test, I left one outdoors, in the MS sun, for over a month, with no > issues. > > A strange idiosyncrasy of the label material is that it sticks tenaciously > to almost any surface, but when you fold it around a wire, it doesn't want > to stick to itself. (?) After a few days, almost every label I initially > applied to wires had either dropped off, or was just barely hanging on > where the bend point touched the wire. I can't remember how I discovered > this, but if I press one half of the sticky surface on my finger (which > almost always has a bit of dust/dirt on it while working), and then re-fold > the label onto itself, it never releases again. So now, any time I'm > labeling wires, I press half the sticky surface on a finger before folding > it over a wire. Works fine; seems to last a long time. > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-3417334261586482476_m_2783357284985742886_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 6:57 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > >> Jon, >> >> This is very disturbing. How much time? All of the wiring that I already >> have in the plane has been labeled with Sharpies on white heat shrink. I >> can still relabel a bunch of it if necessary. >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 5:30 PM, jonlaury wrote: >> >>> Over time, I found the text made with fine pt Sharpie on white heat >>> shrink fades/runs. Wish I had stayed with my original method of inkjet >>> printed on white paper then cut into strips to be inserted inside clear >>> heat shrink. They are crisp and legible, years later. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* >> > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:16 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding Folks, In planning my wiring harness, the manufacturers call for shielded wires to carry the audio signals between the audio panel and the various noise sources. Every sample wiring diagram shows the shield tied to ground at that manufacturer's device so, for instance, the radio manufacturer's sample diagram shows the shield grounded at the radio and the audio panel's sample diagram shows the same shield grounded at the audio panel. It doesn't matter, right? Can I ground either end of the shield? I do understand that I should not ground both ends. Thanks, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? At 11:14 AM 8/28/2017, you wrote: > >Bob, >A thousand thanks! > >And I found your explorations and findings about the relay failures >on rolll trim control boards fascinating, if for no other reason >than the failure symptoms are almost identical to what I'm seeing >with my product. > >My switch failures are beginning to occur after about 30-60 cycles. >Thinking that the sticking was purely mechanical, and acknowledging >the problem to users, I suggested unplugging the machine, squirting >WD40 into the pushbutton recess and cycling the switch until they >got a blister on their finger, to erode/smooth the imagined rough >edges of the switch internals. It either worked or customers just >didn't want to talk to a crazy person any more, because very few >reported a continuing problem. I even rigged up a reciprocating saw >with a 'boxing glove' to wear-in the switch, as a misguided, >pre-conditioning preventative. Yup, been there . . . or at least some of my compadres have. There was a chronic difficulty with nuisance tripping the ov system on the A36/B55 series aircraft . . .that stuck its head up several times over a span of some 30 years. One attempt at a fix included taking brand new alternators and running them at load on a drive stand for 20 hours or so before putting them on the airplane . . . seems the problems were mitigated with service time. The operative theory at the time was that QC issues with slip ring/brush interface was root cause of the problem. A break-in operation seemed to help. As it turns out, the brush/slip ring interface was a NORMAL condition that was only a trigger for root cause. Got to watch that same problem pop up about every 5-10 years or so. But it wasn't until my very last service offered to the then newly amalgamated Textron, I suggested again, that it wasn't the alternator's fault . . . but that of the ov regulators ov protection system. We started a stone simple fix before my contract ran out. At least I didn't have to endure the machinations and pretzel twisting it took to get one set of guts lifted out of a regulator with a decades long, stellar track record and installed inside the regulator enclosure for the Beech products. i.e. a presto-changeo creation of a form-fit-function replacement for a regulator that had NEVER been subjected to DO-160 study for suitability to task. A task that we would have accomplished in mere days back in the day . . . took nearly a year under the 'new order'. >Your analysis, with remedies, is a crescendo of angelic voices, >coincident with brilliant, golden light, illuminating the path out >of blasphemous tinkering to electronic righteousness. I feel cleansed. :D You're too kind . . . but you appreciate the the kind of thought processes and experiments that have to be conducted to (1) eliminate that which does not work, (2) identify that which does work and (3) sift all the options in quest of the elegant solution. That relay study on roll trim cards took about two years as the activities had to be interleaved with more pressing matters. And I was the only one working on it. A 'tiger team' of similarly thoughtful and motivated students of the physical arts would have been very helpful. Same story with pitch trim motor failures that plagued Beech to the tune of $millions$ in warranty claims and lost customer confidence. Maybe I'll publish that paper one day . . . it's a real zinger . . . and like the roll trim relay studies, it took years of looking for the answers to 'what if' and 'how about this'. Sorta like technological whack-a-mole. Then one day, one of the heads that popped up was the Eureka mole. >One more impertinent question: >In the zero-crossing relay suggested, the load side spec is 250vac @ >2a. The steady-state ballast load is 800ma and the motor draws about >2a. Will the relay take it? or am I missing something here? Good eye. Yeah, if THAT option is attractive, you'll need a beefier device. Maybe something like this. http://tinyurl.com/y8bfqm5o While on a patient transfer from Wichita today I had a brain-fart that might be the simplest solution. You could craft your own buffer circuit for the switch from a triac and a couple resistors like this. Emacs! This could be nothing more than two resistors soldered together with the triac, lead wires attached and then coated in some insulating encapsulant . . . maybe RTV, E6000 or thixotropic epoxy. In technical terms this is known as a "Kludge". This would reduce stresses on your switch to mere tens of milliamps and then only for tens of microseconds at each re-triggering event just after the ac wave form zero-crossing. Even if the switch were close at the top of the wave form, current through the switch and its series resistor would be limited to an amp or so and again, for tens of microseconds. This buffer for your switch contacts raises potential for a new failure mode. . . corrosion over time on switch contacts causing them to STOP conducting . . . not enough 'cleansing current' flowing during each switch closure to keep them free of oxides. But that risk is generally years out into the future. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:27 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding At 08:27 AM 8/29/2017, you wrote: >Folks, > >In planning my wiring harness, the manufacturers call for shielded >wires to carry the audio signals between the audio panel and the >various noise sources. Every sample wiring diagram shows the shield >tied to ground at that manufacturer's device so, for instance, the >radio manufacturer's sample diagram shows the shield grounded at the >radio and the audio panel's sample diagram shows the same shield >grounded at the audio panel. > >It doesn't matter, right? Can I ground either end of the shield? I >do understand that I should not ground both ends. Follow the manufacturer's instructions. Grounding shields at both ends is never 'better' from the standpoint of breaking the electro-static, noise coupling mode . . . and sometimes grounding at both ends can pose new problems. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:11 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 08:27 AM 8/29/2017, you wrote: > > Folks, > > In planning my wiring harness, the manufacturers call for shielded wires > to carry the audio signals between the audio panel and the various noise > sources. Every sample wiring diagram shows the shield tied to ground at > that manufacturer's device so, for instance, the radio manufacturer's > sample diagram shows the shield grounded at the radio and the audio panel's > sample diagram shows the same shield grounded at the audio panel. > > It doesn't matter, right? Can I ground either end of the shield? I do > understand that I should not ground both ends. > > > Follow the manufacturer's instructions. Grounding > shields at both ends is never 'better' from the > standpoint of breaking the electro-static, noise > coupling mode . . . and sometimes grounding at > both ends can pose new problems. > > Bob, I am confused because the manufacturers have given conflicting info. The audio panel shows all shields grounded at the audio panel (and open at the radios). The radios show the shields grounded at the radios (and open at the audio panel). As far as I can tell, it should not matter. I should be able to ground either end of the shield for any particular wire (and leave the other end open). Right? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding From: Charlie England On 8/29/2017 9:05 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III > > > wrote: > > At 08:27 AM 8/29/2017, you wrote: >> Folks, >> >> In planning my wiring harness, the manufacturers call for >> shielded wires to carry the audio signals between the audio panel >> and the various noise sources. Every sample wiring diagram shows >> the shield tied to ground at that manufacturer's device so, for >> instance, the radio manufacturer's sample diagram shows the >> shield grounded at the radio and the audio panel's sample diagram >> shows the same shield grounded at the audio panel. >> >> It doesn't matter, right? Can I ground either end of the shield? >> I do understand that I should not ground both ends. > > Follow the manufacturer's instructions. Grounding > shields at both ends is never 'better' from the > standpoint of breaking the electro-static, noise > coupling mode . . . and sometimes grounding at > both ends can pose new problems. > > Bob, > > I am confused because the manufacturers have given conflicting info. > The audio panel shows all shields grounded at the audio panel (and > open at the radios). The radios show the shields grounded at the > radios (and open at the audio panel). As far as I can tell, it should > not matter. I should be able to ground either end of the shield for > any particular wire (and leave the other end open). Right? > > -- Art Z. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ Art, The reason for such confusion with shields is that with most (not all) *data* transmission, the shield is purely a shield and doesn't participate in electron flow (to complete the circuit). But with audio, the shield is often called on to do 'double duty'; providing a shield *and* providing the return path for the electron flow. When that's the case, you must connect the shield at both ends. A quick way to tell is that if you see an audio 'hi', an audio 'lo', *and* a shield (3 lines on the drawing), the shield can be connected at one end. But if you only see an audio 'hi' and a shield, the shield is acting as both the 'lo' and the shield. An example would be the headphone wire in many mono intercoms. You'll typically see the headphone 'hi' and a shield wire on the drawing. Since almost all intercoms spec that the mic & headphone jacks be isolated from the airframe (ground), if you don't connect the shield at both ends (intercom & jack), you won't have a complete circuit and the headphones won't work. Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:39 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? From: Eric Page > >> In the zero-crossing relay suggested, the load side spec is 250vac @ 2a. T he steady-state ballast load is 800ma and the motor draws about 2a. Will the relay take it? or am I missing something here? > On Aug 29, 2017, at 6:29 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > Good eye. Yeah, if THAT option is attractive, you'll need a beefier device . Maybe something like this. > > http://tinyurl.com/y8bfqm5o Careful... the linked SSR is a DC-DC device. It's basically an opto-isolat ed MOSFET or Darlington. It might work as a rectifier, but only briefly! For this application the output side has got to be labeled for AC, then it'l l contain a triac or souce-connected N-MOSFETs. If John isn't hesitant to use offshore sources for his parts, he might try t hese... http://www.ebay.com/itm/112021093981 I've used a couple in mains-powered projects and had no trouble with them. T hey're not a brand anyone has ever heard of, but they seem to work, the pric e is right, and the screw terminals lend themselves to a field retrofit bett er than a PCB-mounted SIP package. If heat sinking or a safety cover are desired, see... http://www.ebay.com/itm/112159075071 and... http://www.ebay.com/itm/112266161948 Keep in mind also that anything from China with a $0.99 price tag and a name brand like OMRON printed on it is going to be a case of blatant IP theft. Eric ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding > >=C2 >Bob, > >I am confused because the manufacturers have >given conflicting info. The audio panel shows >all shields grounded at the audio panel (and >open at the radios). The radios show the shields >grounded at the radios (and open at the audio >panel). As far as I can tell, it should not >matter. I should be able to ground either end of >the shield for any particular wire (and leave the other end open). Right? Correct . . . it never matters at which end it is grounded . . . but unless the shield is doubling both ELECTRO-STATIC NOISE COUPLING combined with a SIGNAL -or- POWER PATH, then grounding at either end is sufficient and correct. If the shield is intended to serve a dual purpose, then the installation instructions will be specific as to how BOTH ends of the shield are managed. Example: I used to supply an LED annunciator fixture where is was MECHANICALLY convenient to use a single shielded wire to make connections with the back of the LED. Emacs! In this case, the shielding was NOT being utilized as a noise mitigation feature . . . it was simply one of the power pathways for the lamp. In this case, installation instructions called out the appropriate treatment . . . Emacs! We have often pondered design features called out in various documents over the years here on the list . . . lamenting the fact that we could not ask the designer to explain the simple-ideas in physics and/or mechanics that drove the design. The simplest thing to do is follow the instructions. On occasion we have discovered errors in reasoning/implementation of design goals but this is very rare. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:44 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? >On Aug 29, 2017, at 6:29 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III ><nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: >>Good eye. Yeah, if THAT option is attractive, you'll need a beefier >>device. Maybe something like this. >> >>http://tinyurl.com/y8bfqm5o > > >Careful... the linked SSR is a DC-DC device. It's basically an >opto-isolated MOSFET or Darlington. It might work as a rectifier, >but only briefly! > >For this application the output side has got to be labeled for AC, >then it'll contain a triac or souce-connected N-MOSFETs. > >If John isn't hesitant to use offshore sources for his parts, he >might try these... > >http://www.ebay.com/itm/112021093981 > >I've used a couple in mains-powered projects and had no trouble with >them. They're not a brand anyone has ever heard of, but they seem >to work, the price is right, and the screw terminals lend themselves >to a field retrofit better than a PCB-mounted SIP package. Good catch! Thanks. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:29 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shield Grounding Thank you for the clarification. -- Art Z. Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos. On Aug 29, 2017 11:43 AM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > =C3=82 > Bob, > > I am confused because the manufacturers have given conflicting info. The > audio panel shows all shields grounded at the audio panel (and open at th e > radios). The radios show the shields grounded at the radios (and open at > the audio panel). As far as I can tell, it should not matter. I should be > able to ground either end of the shield for any particular wire (and leav e > the other end open). Right? > > > Correct . . . it never matters at which end it > is grounded . . . but unless the shield is > doubling both ELECTRO-STATIC NOISE COUPLING > combined with a SIGNAL -or- POWER PATH, then > grounding at either end is sufficient and > correct. > > If the shield is intended to serve a dual > purpose, then the installation instructions > will be specific as to how BOTH ends of > the shield are managed. > > Example: I used to supply an LED annunciator > fixture where is was MECHANICALLY convenient > to use a single shielded wire to make connections > with the back of the LED. > > [image: Emacs!] > > > In this case, the shielding was NOT being > utilized as a noise mitigation feature . . . it > was simply one of the power pathways for the > lamp. > > In this case, installation instructions > called out the appropriate treatment . . . > > [image: Emacs!] > > We have often pondered design features called > out in various documents over the years here > on the list . . . lamenting the fact that we > could not ask the designer to explain the > simple-ideas in physics and/or mechanics that > drove the design. > > The simplest thing to do is follow the instructions. > On occasion we have discovered errors in > reasoning/implementation of design goals but > this is very rare. > > > Bob . . . > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:29 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Non-aero app: 120/240 AC through 24vdc switch? From: "Eric Page" Upon reflection, the SSR that I linked to won't work without some redesign of the machine's circuitry, as it needs a DC input. The easiest retrofit for Jon to do would be to use an AC-AC SSR and control it with the existing switch that's already in the machine. Here's an eBay search for parts that will work: http://preview.tinyurl.com/ybqcog6g These SSRs are available from 10A to 100A; just change the eBay search term. If using a known-source part is an issue, here's a Digi-Key search for AC-AC zero-cross SSRs, 5A or greater, sorted by price: http://preview.tinyurl.com/yamzd5vc Connect as shown in the attached diagram. Eric Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472323#472323 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ssr_ckt_436.jpg ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:26 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Silent-Hektik Regulator From: "user9253" Dan Horton conducted an experiment similar to mine above except that he shut off the avionics first. His alternator is a Plane Power 60A. With the battery disconnected from the aircraft electrical system, the voltage varied between 13 and 16 volts (as far as he could tell without data logging instruments). So it appears that 3-phase common alternators require a battery to stabilize voltage just like permanent-magnet single-phase alternators do. You can read his post here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=1200109#post1200109 -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472337#472337 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.