Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:03 AM - Re: starter contactor (Jared Yates)
2. 08:11 AM - Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (donjohnston)
3. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Charlie England)
4. 08:51 AM - Re: starter contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Rick Beebe)
6. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: starter contactor |
I just went through the same thing and ended up using the Napa/Echlin ST404
for about $30. Unfortunately, the bolt holes did not match the Cole Hersee
that I was replacing. I ended up making an adapter plate.
On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 10:38 PM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> Or do the same on ebay until you see one that looks suitable, & either
> order it, or get the make/model of the car it fits to the local auto part
s
> store.
> https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=starter+relay&_osacat
> 0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.
> Xstarter+solenoid.TRS0&_nkw=starter+solenoid&_sacat=0
>
>
> On 9/17/2017 7:56 PM, Robert Borger wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Alec,
>>
>> Go to Pep Boys and search on =9Cstarter solenoid=9D and ther
e are a number of
>> them to choose from. Prices range from $175.99 to $11.99. Surely one o
f
>> them will tickle your fancy.
>>
>> Blue skies & tailwinds,
>> Bob Borger
>> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs).
>> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP
>> 3705 Lynchburg Dr.
>> Corinth, TX 76208-5331
>> Cel: 817-992-1117
>> rlborger@mac.com
>>
>> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know if there is an automotive source or part number for the
>> traditional three-terminal intermittent duty cycle starter contactor?
>>
>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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>
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>
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) |
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> But your
> 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker
> in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few
> years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over
> kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc).
The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop.
The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment,
garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker.
Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet can
be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something I'm
not certain about.
If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets,
the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install the
correct outlet.
I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet
is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes some
of the sting out of it.
I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot. Only those which go to outlets.
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the
circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral
wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to
the ground in the panel is secure.
I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping
would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker.
ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
> Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472981#472981
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) |
On 9/18/2017 10:09 AM, donjohnston wrote:
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> But your
>> 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker
>> in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few
>> years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over
>> kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc).
>
> The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop.
>
> The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment,
garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker.
Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet
can be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something
I'm not certain about.
>
> If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets,
the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install
the correct outlet.
>
> I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet
is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes
some of the sting out of it.
>
> I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot. Only those which go to outlets.
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the
circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral
wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to
the ground in the panel is secure.
>
> I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping
would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker.
>
>
> ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote:
>> Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for
>
I haven't read the NEC on GFIs, but it's difficult to understand the
logic of including 'workshop' in the code. Plugging a drill motor or
other tool in a 'workshop' outlet is no different from plugging it in an
outlet in your house. I would have thought the only variable would be
the damp/moisture issue. Some workshops might be damp, but most people
want to keep their tools & equipment dry.
I mentioned looking for 'system' issues because of your earlier email:
About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be
tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light. I unplugged
them and it would be tripped the next morning. I swapped the circuit with a
different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that
I've got a bad breaker.
I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!! :x ). All good now.
/*Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit
tripping. This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping
(with nothing connected to the circuit).*/
So from your narrative it sounded like you have more than one GFI
that's nuisance tripping.
---
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Message 4
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Subject: | Re: starter contactor |
At 09:18 PM 9/17/2017, you wrote:
>
>Hi Alec;
>Try Aircraft Spruce Part # 11-03162, which is a Unipoint Part #
>SNLS-135T. They must be having a weak moment and have it on sale for
>less than $10.
That's the 'whisky barrel' version of the modern
starter contactors. The same general rules apply
for selecting substitutions. If it looks like
that and claims 'diode suppression' then you're
good to go.
Incidentally . . . it's easy to test a contactor
for diode suppression. Use a couple of clip
leads to apply voltage to the coil from a bench
power supply or any 12v battery. Be sure to clip
battery(-) to the contactor base, clip one end
of other lead to battery(+) and use it to make
intermittent contact with the "S" terminal. You
should hear/feel some robust activity within
the contactor as it closes. There should be
very little or no observable arcing at the "S"
terminal where you are applying power to the
coil. If no diode present, arcing will be
significant. You can still use this contactor . . .
just add the diode externally; anode to base
(ground), cathode to the "S" terminal.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) |
On 9/17/2017 4:39 PM, Charlie England wrote:
> Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on
> the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and
> the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure
> that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure.
Neutral should not be bonded to ground in a subpanel; only back at the
main panel. And also, make sure that your ground and neutral wires in
the subpanel are on their separate and appropriate bus-bars.
--Rick
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) |
At 06:39 PM 9/17/2017, you wrote:
><ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
>On 9/17/2017 4:20 AM, donjohnston wrote:
>>
<snip>
>Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with
>nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the
>ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the
>neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure . .
.
Wiring issues downstream of the GFI are certainly at the
top of the list . . . and not hard to troubleshoot. A GFI
is a specialized incarnation of the clamp-on, AC ammeters
that are useful service tools. They let you measure current
in a wire by detecting the magnetic field outside the wire.
You can interpret current flow in the wire without having to
break into it.
The Hall Sensor devices common to DC current measurements
function on a similar principal. Hall devices can measure
both ac and dc currents, the familiar clamp-on service instruments
are transformers GENERALLY limited to AC measurements.
Measurements are made by running ONE wire in the supply
loop through the instrument's measurement aperture.
You could use such an instrument to detect wiring faults
by running BOTH supply loop wires thorough the aperture.
Emacs!
During normal operation, the current flowing in the outbound
wire (hot) exactly equals the current on the return (neutral)
wire. Snapping the ammeter over a properly operating power
pair will show a net current reading of zero.
Now, assuming there is some leakage current from hot to
a remote ground, there will be an imbalance in the hot
vs. neutral conductors. If this current exceeds something
on the order of 5 MILLIAMPERES, the magnitude of leakage
is considered hazardous. Most service instruments are
not sensitive enough to detect/measure leakage currents
this small.
A ground fault breaker is simply an ac ammeter built
into the breaker housing. But in place of an observable
display, the transformer drives electronic circuitry
that (1) watches for imbalance in the hot/neutral
pair exceeding 5ma and (2) unlatching the breaker's
hold-closed mechanism when the leakage limit is exceeded.
The illustration above shows how the leakage is
monitored by passing both paths through the same
aperture. Making this happen in a GFI breaker
requires that both the hot and neutral wires pass
through the breaker.
Emacs!
This illustration shows that instead of taking
the neutral wire right to the panel ground bus, it
goes to a terminal on the breaker. So not only
will this breaker have TWO terminals for house
wiring, a 'pigtail' routed the panel ground bus
completes the neutral path.
It's unlikely that nuisance tripping is caused
by loose connections. You have (1)a real leakage
problem out on the distribution wiring, (2)
a leaky appliance plugged into an outlet or
(3) a flaky GFI.
Do you have more than one GFI in the panel? If
so, try moving the hot/neutral pair on the problem
circuit over to another GFI. If the tripping moves
to the new breaker, then downstream leaking is
indicated. If the problem does not move, then
the breaker has a problem.
Similarly, a wall-receptacle GFI can be used as
http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/gfci.gif
a test tool. You can wire your 'problem feeder'
to the LOAD pair of terminals while using a pair
of jumpers from the LINE pair to the panel ground
and any handy breaker. See if the test GFI complains
about feeder quality.
Incidentally, a GFI does not need the safety
ground wire to function as intended. It measures
DIFFERENCE currents in the hot/neutral pair . . .
the leakage MIGHT be flowing back on the safety
ground wire . . . or to another current sink . . .
it doesn't matter.
Many appliances like hair dryers and pressure
washers have GFIs built right into the plug on
the end of the cord.
Emacs!
Note that many end-of-cord GFIs don't feature a third prong
for safety ground . . . it's not needed to monitor and
react to an IMBALANCE of current flow on the hot/neutral
pair.
There are other experiments that you can use to explore
leakage on the problem feeder . . . but confirming
proper operation of the panel GFI is the first . . .
Bob . . .
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