---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 09/18/17: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:03 AM - Re: starter contactor (Jared Yates) 2. 08:11 AM - Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (donjohnston) 3. 08:47 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Charlie England) 4. 08:51 AM - Re: starter contactor (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:03 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Rick Beebe) 6. 11:19 AM - Re: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:54 AM PST US From: Jared Yates Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter contactor I just went through the same thing and ended up using the Napa/Echlin ST404 for about $30. Unfortunately, the bolt holes did not match the Cole Hersee that I was replacing. I ended up making an adapter plate. On Sun, Sep 17, 2017 at 10:38 PM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7@gmail.com> > > Or do the same on ebay until you see one that looks suitable, & either > order it, or get the make/model of the car it fits to the local auto part s > store. > https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=starter+relay&_osacat > 0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0. > Xstarter+solenoid.TRS0&_nkw=starter+solenoid&_sacat=0 > > > On 9/17/2017 7:56 PM, Robert Borger wrote: > > >> >> Alec, >> >> Go to Pep Boys and search on =9Cstarter solenoid=9D and ther e are a number of >> them to choose from. Prices range from $175.99 to $11.99. Surely one o f >> them will tickle your fancy. >> >> Blue skies & tailwinds, >> Bob Borger >> Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (75 hrs). >> Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP >> 3705 Lynchburg Dr. >> Corinth, TX 76208-5331 >> Cel: 817-992-1117 >> rlborger@mac.com >> >> On Sep 17, 2017, at 7:35 PM, Alec Myers wrote: >> >> >> Does anyone know if there is an automotive source or part number for the >> traditional three-terminal intermittent duty cycle starter contactor? >> >> > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:14 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) From: "donjohnston" ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > But your > 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker > in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few > years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over > kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop. The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment, garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker. Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet can be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something I'm not certain about. If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets, the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install the correct outlet. I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes some of the sting out of it. I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot. Only those which go to outlets. ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker. ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: > Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472981#472981 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:47:49 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) From: Charlie England On 9/18/2017 10:09 AM, donjohnston wrote: > > > ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: >> But your >> 1st post said 'every 120 breaker' which I guess means every 120V breaker >> in that panel. Unless the NEC has changed radically in the last few >> years, the only place GFI breakers are required is near water (over >> kitchen/bathroom sinks, outdoors, etc). > > The subpanel in my shop only serves the shop. > > The code (as I understand it) is that every accessible outlet in a damp enviroment, garage, workshop or unfinished area must be protected by a GFCI breaker. Now whether that has to be an actual circuit breaker or if the first outlet can be a GFCI outlet which protects all the outlets downstream, is something I'm not certain about. > > If a GFCI outlet can be used, I'm guessing that since I was installing the outlets, the electrican decided to go with the breaker in case I didn't install the correct outlet. > > I'm currently trying to nail down if Florida requires the breaker or if an outlet is acceptable. I've found the breakers online for about $40 so that takes some of the sting out of it. > > I do not have GFCI breakers in every slot. Only those which go to outlets. > > > ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: >> Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. > > I would think that if there were ground or neutral wiring problems that the tripping would remain on the same circuit instead of moving with the breaker. > > > ceengland7(at)gmail.com wrote: >> Also, you can buy an inexpensive GFI tester for > I haven't read the NEC on GFIs, but it's difficult to understand the logic of including 'workshop' in the code. Plugging a drill motor or other tool in a 'workshop' outlet is no different from plugging it in an outlet in your house. I would have thought the only variable would be the damp/moisture issue. Some workshops might be damp, but most people want to keep their tools & equipment dry. I mentioned looking for 'system' issues because of your earlier email: About a month ago, whenever I went into the shop, one of the breakers would be tripped. The only thing on that circuit is a lathe and work light. I unplugged them and it would be tripped the next morning. I swapped the circuit with a different breaker and the same breaker kept tripping. So it would appear that I've got a bad breaker. I went to Home Depot and got a new one ($53!!! :x ). All good now. /*Except now there's a breaker on a completely different circuit tripping. This one only stays set for about an hour before tripping (with nothing connected to the circuit).*/ So from your narrative it sounded like you have more than one GFI that's nuisance tripping. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: starter contactor At 09:18 PM 9/17/2017, you wrote: > >Hi Alec; >Try Aircraft Spruce Part # 11-03162, which is a Unipoint Part # >SNLS-135T. They must be having a weak moment and have it on sale for >less than $10. That's the 'whisky barrel' version of the modern starter contactors. The same general rules apply for selecting substitutions. If it looks like that and claims 'diode suppression' then you're good to go. Incidentally . . . it's easy to test a contactor for diode suppression. Use a couple of clip leads to apply voltage to the coil from a bench power supply or any 12v battery. Be sure to clip battery(-) to the contactor base, clip one end of other lead to battery(+) and use it to make intermittent contact with the "S" terminal. You should hear/feel some robust activity within the contactor as it closes. There should be very little or no observable arcing at the "S" terminal where you are applying power to the coil. If no diode present, arcing will be significant. You can still use this contactor . . . just add the diode externally; anode to base (ground), cathode to the "S" terminal. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) From: Rick Beebe On 9/17/2017 4:39 PM, Charlie England wrote: > Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with nothing on > the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the ground wiring and > the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the neutral, making sure > that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure. Neutral should not be bonded to ground in a subpanel; only back at the main panel. And also, make sure that your ground and neutral wires in the subpanel are on their separate and appropriate bus-bars. --Rick ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:19:21 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: GFCI Breaker keeps tripping (Non Aviation) At 06:39 PM 9/17/2017, you wrote: > > >On 9/17/2017 4:20 AM, donjohnston wrote: >> >Having said all that, if I were getting random GFI trips with >nothing on the circuit, I'd be looking for 'issues' with both the >ground wiring and the neutral wiring. I'd probably start with the >neutral, making sure that its 'bond' to the ground in the panel is secure . . .. Wiring issues downstream of the GFI are certainly at the top of the list . . . and not hard to troubleshoot. A GFI is a specialized incarnation of the clamp-on, AC ammeters that are useful service tools. They let you measure current in a wire by detecting the magnetic field outside the wire. You can interpret current flow in the wire without having to break into it. The Hall Sensor devices common to DC current measurements function on a similar principal. Hall devices can measure both ac and dc currents, the familiar clamp-on service instruments are transformers GENERALLY limited to AC measurements. Measurements are made by running ONE wire in the supply loop through the instrument's measurement aperture. You could use such an instrument to detect wiring faults by running BOTH supply loop wires thorough the aperture. Emacs! During normal operation, the current flowing in the outbound wire (hot) exactly equals the current on the return (neutral) wire. Snapping the ammeter over a properly operating power pair will show a net current reading of zero. Now, assuming there is some leakage current from hot to a remote ground, there will be an imbalance in the hot vs. neutral conductors. If this current exceeds something on the order of 5 MILLIAMPERES, the magnitude of leakage is considered hazardous. Most service instruments are not sensitive enough to detect/measure leakage currents this small. A ground fault breaker is simply an ac ammeter built into the breaker housing. But in place of an observable display, the transformer drives electronic circuitry that (1) watches for imbalance in the hot/neutral pair exceeding 5ma and (2) unlatching the breaker's hold-closed mechanism when the leakage limit is exceeded. The illustration above shows how the leakage is monitored by passing both paths through the same aperture. Making this happen in a GFI breaker requires that both the hot and neutral wires pass through the breaker. Emacs! This illustration shows that instead of taking the neutral wire right to the panel ground bus, it goes to a terminal on the breaker. So not only will this breaker have TWO terminals for house wiring, a 'pigtail' routed the panel ground bus completes the neutral path. It's unlikely that nuisance tripping is caused by loose connections. You have (1)a real leakage problem out on the distribution wiring, (2) a leaky appliance plugged into an outlet or (3) a flaky GFI. Do you have more than one GFI in the panel? If so, try moving the hot/neutral pair on the problem circuit over to another GFI. If the tripping moves to the new breaker, then downstream leaking is indicated. If the problem does not move, then the breaker has a problem. Similarly, a wall-receptacle GFI can be used as http://s.hswstatic.com/gif/gfci.gif a test tool. You can wire your 'problem feeder' to the LOAD pair of terminals while using a pair of jumpers from the LINE pair to the panel ground and any handy breaker. See if the test GFI complains about feeder quality. Incidentally, a GFI does not need the safety ground wire to function as intended. It measures DIFFERENCE currents in the hot/neutral pair . . . the leakage MIGHT be flowing back on the safety ground wire . . . or to another current sink . . . it doesn't matter. Many appliances like hair dryers and pressure washers have GFIs built right into the plug on the end of the cord. Emacs! Note that many end-of-cord GFIs don't feature a third prong for safety ground . . . it's not needed to monitor and react to an IMBALANCE of current flow on the hot/neutral pair. There are other experiments that you can use to explore leakage on the problem feeder . . . but confirming proper operation of the panel GFI is the first . . . Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.