---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 10/23/17: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:08 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Art Zemon) 2. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Inexpensive voltage data logger (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 08:02 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Charlie England) 4. 08:10 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 08:23 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Art Zemon) 6. 08:32 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Art Zemon) 7. 08:36 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Sebastien) 8. 09:12 AM - Re: Battery charger / power supply (Charlie England) 9. 11:31 PM - Re: Flush Cutting Cable Ties (KentMarshall11) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:08:06 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF website on my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the Batteries chapter of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is time for me to buy the battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle charger. I'll let the battery supply the higher current for testing the panel and then let the charger replenish the battery at a lower current. Cheers, -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:56:25 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Inexpensive voltage data logger At 05:25 PM 10/22/2017, you wrote: > >Le 21/10/2017 =E0 08:32, Eric Page a =E9crit : >> >>I've played around with one of these a bit and it seemed to work quite well. >> >>http://preview.tinyurl.com/ya7pg9sg Agreed. I've got a couple of these in the toolbox. The really attractive feature (besides price) is the graphical user interface software. Building a piece of hardware to sample analog data, convert it to numbers and spit it out for recording or display is a trivial task. Signal conditioning the real world stimulus for presentation to the analog conversion is a bit more complex. Then, once you've collected a 'pile of numbers', you need to convert them into their real-world significance. Here's a typical data file from a task I did at Beech. First column is time of day to the second . . . followed by 20 columns of values between 0 and 4095 (0 = 0V at the input the the analog to digital converter; 4095 4,095 millivolts at the input). The a/d also resolves polarity of the signal so you see one column with a minus sign on the numbers. Emacs! After boring holes in the sky and smoking off a few hundred gallons of fuel, you go back to the desk and convert all these numbers into interpretable displays . . . my favorite at the time was to craft utilities in TurboBasic to put offset and scale factors on the numbers which were then spit out as script files that plotted pretty lines onto graphing templates in AudoCAD. The work product comes out looking like this Emacs! I've also used Excel to good advantage to produce similar plots. Emacs! Sometimes, the thing you're looking for cannot be observed and resolved in terms of numbers. For example . . . Emacs! Here's a picture of 'tracks in the snow' taken from the surface of a position feedback potentiometer in an actuator. The thing would mis-behave on descent from altitude. Turns out that warm, moist air pushed into a cold-soaked actuator with increasing atmospheric pressure would cause condensation and frost on the surface of the pot . . . disrupting its functionality. As the pot wiper stroked the length of the pot, the fingers would plow little tracks in the frost. That was a challenging investigation. The video camera wouldn't work at those low temperatures . . . had to strap a power resistor to the side of the camera housing along with a temperature sensor and controller to maintain the camera at about 10C. The point to be pondered here is that a search for knowledge is usually much bigger than simply identifying the gizmo to shoot a stream of numbers into an thumb drive or onto your hard drive. Getting the physical phenomenon conditioned into voltages within the input range of the A/D is the 'front end' task . . . the unpacking the numbers for interpretable display is yet another task. Paul and I have pondered this problem . . . and stirred up some ideas to craft a data acquisition system easily tailored to the kinds of investigations useful on OBAM aircraft. Tools that minimize the user's time, talents and resources for input conditioning and output interpretation. This little iCP12 module cited above with it's included graphical interface is a really big jump in the right direction. We're going to see if we can take it a bit further yet. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:53 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply From: Charlie England On 10/23/2017 6:06 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF > website on my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the > Batteries chapter of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is > time for me to buy the battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle > charger. I'll let the battery supply the higher current for testing > the panel and then let the charger replenish the battery at a lower > current. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, > what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ I'm getting the impression that we might be talking about leaving the charger on the battery all the time. There's a lot of empirical evidence for that being a bad idea, even with a 'smart' 'maintainer' style charger. AGM batteries have very little self-discharge over time, so they don't need to be 'maintained'. As an example, my 4+ year old AGM battery in my RV-4 often sits for over a month without being flown, but it starts the plane just fine after sitting. On the other hand, there have been numerous posts on this and other lists/forums by people who've left a 'smart maintainer' style charger hooked to their AGM battery and had the battery die a very premature death. It's extremely rare to hear about early death when the battery is just used normally. Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:34 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply At 06:06 AM 10/23/2017, you wrote: >Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF >website on my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the >Batteries chapter of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it >is time for me to buy the battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle >charger. I'll let the battery supply the higher current for testing >the panel and then let the charger replenish the battery at a lower current. That will work. My current favorites for $value$ in small charger/maintainers are the Schumacher SEMI1562A http://tinyurl.com/y8o3ryb5 or Battery Tender Jr http://tinyurl.com/y8dzte5o I have both of these products in service in my shop and I have installed them on farm equipment for several friends. Left plugged in and connected to your ship's battery at all times, you can use the battery for short interval testing (say 30 minutes to a hour) in the battery- only, endurance mode. The charger will have the battery topped back off by the next morning. The Schumacher has about 2x the output of the Battery Tender so it will top off a bit quicker . . . but both will do the job. For extended ground ops on the airplane, consider something like this: http://tinyurl.com/ycg5uuf3 This can be floated across the ship's battery but should not be used to charge a depleted battery. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:56 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply Charlie, For now, I will use the battery for testing the electrical devices in the plane while I am assembling it. I will use the charger to recharge the battery since the plane does not (yet) have an engine. -- Art Z. On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Charlie England wrote: > On 10/23/2017 6:06 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF website on > my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the Batteries chapter > of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is time for me to buy the > battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle charger. I'll let the battery > supply the higher current for testing the panel and then let the charger > replenish the battery at a lower current. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > > I'm getting the impression that we might be talking about leaving the > charger on the battery all the time. There's a lot of empirical evidence > for that being a bad idea, even with a 'smart' 'maintainer' style charger. > AGM batteries have very little self-discharge over time, so they don't need > to be 'maintained'. As an example, my 4+ year old AGM battery in my RV-4 > often sits for over a month without being flown, but it starts the plane > just fine after sitting. On the other hand, there have been numerous posts > on this and other lists/forums by people who've left a 'smart maintainer' > style charger hooked to their AGM battery and had the battery die a very > premature death. It's extremely rare to hear about early death when the > battery is just used normally. > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_6940801807452127696_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:32:48 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 06:06 AM 10/23/2017, you wrote: > > Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF website o n > my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the Batteries chapte r > of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is time for me to buy t he > battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle charger. I'll let the battery > supply the higher current for testing the panel and then let the charger > replenish the battery at a lower current. > > > That will work. My current favorites for $value$ in > small charger/maintainers are the Schumacher SEMI1562A > > http://tinyurl.com/y8o3ryb5 > > or Battery Tender Jr > > http://tinyurl.com/y8dzte5o > > I have both of these products in service > in my shop and I have installed them on > farm equipment for several friends. > > Left plugged in and connected to your > ship's battery at all times, you can use > the battery for short interval testing > (say 30 minutes to a hour) in the battery- > only, endurance mode. The charger will > have the battery topped back off by > the next morning. > > =8BYup. That's exactly what I have in mind. I won't have the big-curr ent stuff turned on at all. Radios won't be transmitting. Lights won't be on more than momentarily. Pitot heat not on. Etc. Cheers, -- Art Z.=8B -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:33 AM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply Charlie, I'm not sure "starts the plane just fine" is a good metric of batte ry health. This summer my one year old AGM battery started the plane fine 3 t imes in one day right before it self discharged to 10V in 4 days. Sebastien > On Oct 23, 2017, at 08:05, Charlie England wrote: > >> On 10/23/2017 6:06 AM, Art Zemon wrote: >> Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF website o n my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the Batteries chapter of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is time for me to buy the battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle charger. I'll let the battery suppl y the higher current for testing the panel and then let the charger replenis h the battery at a lower current. >> >> Cheers, >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > I'm getting the impression that we might be talking about leaving the char ger on the battery all the time. There's a lot of empirical evidence for tha t being a bad idea, even with a 'smart' 'maintainer' style charger. AGM batt eries have very little self-discharge over time, so they don't need to be 'm aintained'. As an example, my 4+ year old AGM battery in my RV-4 often sits f or over a month without being flown, but it starts the plane just fine after sitting. On the other hand, there have been numerous posts on this and othe r lists/forums by people who've left a 'smart maintainer' style charger hook ed to their AGM battery and had the battery die a very premature death. It's extremely rare to hear about early death when the battery is just used norm ally. > > Charlie > > Virus-free. www.avast.com ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:47 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Battery charger / power supply No argument to the bare statement, but it's barely tangential to the subject at hand. And nowhere near enough data to know what happened to yours. Did you leave it on a trickle charger all the time? Was the charging system in your a/c working properly? Was your battery defective? I had one that died after about the same length of time. When I pulled the cowl to check it, there was a pinhole in the side of the battery; obviously done in shipping (or in the plant) almost a year earlier. It had been slowly puking acid vapors out that 'vent' since new. Worked fine until it didn't. On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 10:35 AM, Sebastien wrote: > Charlie, I'm not sure "starts the plane just fine" is a good metric of > battery health. This summer my one year old AGM battery started the plane > fine 3 times in one day right before it self discharged to 10V in 4 days. > > Sebastien > > On Oct 23, 2017, at 08:05, Charlie England wrote: > > On 10/23/2017 6:06 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > > Having gotten home from dinner (so I'm no longer surfing the HF website on > my phone) and slept (so I'm more rational), I reread the Batteries chapter > of the AEC. Based on what I read this morning, it is time for me to buy the > battery(ies) for my plane and a trickle charger. I'll let the battery > supply the higher current for testing the panel and then let the charger > replenish the battery at a lower current. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > > I'm getting the impression that we might be talking about leaving the > charger on the battery all the time. There's a lot of empirical evidence > for that being a bad idea, even with a 'smart' 'maintainer' style charger. > AGM batteries have very little self-discharge over time, so they don't need > to be 'maintained'. As an example, my 4+ year old AGM battery in my RV-4 > often sits for over a month without being flown, but it starts the plane > just fine after sitting. On the other hand, there have been numerous posts > on this and other lists/forums by people who've left a 'smart maintainer' > style charger hooked to their AGM battery and had the battery die a very > premature death. It's extremely rare to hear about early death when the > battery is just used normally. > > Charlie > > > Virus-free. > www.avast.com > > <#m_-3109937323447436738_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Flush Cutting Cable Ties From: "KentMarshall11" Flush slicing cable Ties is sufficient to confront copper and steel wire and it cuts squarer in impenetrable things being sloped on the two borders. Flush cutters are slanted on the inward crosswise just and are for the most part a well obligation undertaking. 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