Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:24 PM - Re: Automatic fuel pump backup switch (Tim Shankland)
2. 05:51 PM - Re: Europa XS with ULPower 260i engine (OOPS!!!) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:31 PM - Re: switch wiring (Ken)
4. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: Alternate Feed Switch, is it a Master Switch?? (Richard T. Schaefer)
5. 05:11 PM - Re: Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power (Henry Trzeciakowski)
6. 05:57 PM - Re: Nippondenso alternator question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
7. 05:24 PM - Re: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** (Vernon Little)
8. 01:05 AM - Lamp Dimmer (John Tipton)
9. 05:24 AM - Re: Lamp Dimmer (A R Goldman)
10. 10:03 AM - Re: Lamp Dimmer (Eric Page)
11. 11:16 AM - Re: Clever Wiring for Lamp Dimmer (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 12:59 PM - Re: Clever Wiring for Lamp Dimmer (Art Zemon)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Automatic fuel pump backup switch |
The way I handled this was on my 601 HD with A Stratus Suburu was to put
both electric pumps is series. This will cause an addition of pressures
so after the pumps I put a fuel pressure regulator adjusted to 5 psi. in
this way I can run both pumps for takeoff and landing, or any other time
I like and not exceed the limits of the carb. By the way one of the
Fauset pumps required a by pass check valve so that either pump could
operate independently. I looked into various automatic systems such as
sensing the pressure and modulating one of the pumps but this was far
simpler and so far with my 65 hours has been trouble free.
Tim Shankland
mtmeans wrote:
>
>I have an auto conversion project with dual high pressure fuel pumps. The fuel
pumps are plumbed in parallel with one way valves and are not happy when running
together (stronger pump blocks flow of weaker), ie harmful to switch secondary
on during critical flight. Reflexes being what they are during these times
I am considering a fuel pressure (or other switch) that could turn on the second
pump if first fails. Any suggestions. I tried to search for this exact issue
and had problems. Thanks.
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=157617#157617
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Europa XS with ULPower 260i engine (OOPS!!!) |
I just realized that I didn't answer "the question" about justification
for OV protection. ALL engine driven power sources fitted with regulators
have the ability to produce output voltages well in excess of the
system design voltages. RISKS from failure of the regulator are mitigated
by (1) the alternator's limited ability to deliver energy (current limit),
(2) te alternators open-circuit, runaway limits for voltage and (3) the
battery's ability to soak-up what the alternator dishes out for an interval
of time sufficient for OV protection to take notice and shut the system down.
In the case of an SD-8 driving a 18 a.h. battery, a simple OV warning light
might suffice presuming that the owner operator is willing to place him/herself
in the OV protection loop.
Most designers op for some form of automatic device as do all folks who design
systems for certified aircraft. Indeed, all of my z-figures for power
generation
feature some form of automatic OV protection combined with immediate
notification
of LOW VOLTAGE that follows.
I was concentrating on the operating characteristics of your particular
alternator/regulator combination and overlooked the fact that your original
question asked about the value of adding OV protection. There are NO
votlage regualtors for which probability of runaway failure is ZERO. Some are
very good, some are not. Without doing the MTBF/FMEA analysis on every
design to be considered, the prudent thing to do is simply include OV
protection
on every system.
This is a 3-phase machine which I presume is more robust than the 18A
alternator on a Rotax. It's probably capable of boosting bus votlage
to over 16 volts immediately followed by a steady rise to over 18 volts
in a matter of minutes. It would not be my personal choice to hope that
I would notice and react to a regulator failure for the purpose of
mitigating damage to the rest of the system . . . I would recommend
inclusion of OV protection.
To do this on the AC side of a 3-phase system would require a two-pole
relay so perhaps the best approach is leaving the relay on the DC side
so it can be a single-pole device. See figure Z-20.
Bob . . .
At 07:49 PM 1/12/2008 -0500, you wrote:
><vaughnray@bvunet.net>
>
>Thanks Bob,
>
>I am going down to LSA show in Sebring, Florida to see the guys who make
>the engine. I hope it works out well for me.
>
>Vaughn Teegarden
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
><nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>To: <aeroelectric-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:33 PM
>Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Fw: Europa XS with ULPower 260i engine
>
>
>><nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>>
>>At 05:14 PM 1/8/2008 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I have received the following reply from the ULPower representatvie to
>>>my question, "Why do I not need to include crowbar OV protection with
>>>this engine?"
>>>
>>>
>>>Our electronics guy sent me a diagram showing the principle of how our
>>>type of regulator works. He says (in Dutch below) that:
>>>
>>>----------
>>>our type is a "shunt" regulator which shorts the PMG to ground when the
>>>battery voltage increases above the nominal level so that the battery
>>>can never be over charged and damaged.
>>>The principle of a PMG is different to a Regulated Field Generator
>>>(typical in cars) where the magnetic field is regulated to vary the
>>>voltage of the generator.
>>>A PMG acts as a constant current source and therefore may be shorted out.
>>>
>>>----------
>>>The regulator / rectifier we use is typically used on large capacity
>>>motorbikes and our supplier says they are very robust.
>>>
>>>He also sent the attached schematic:
>>>
>>>So as I see it, the attached schematic for my airplane should be sufficient.
>>>
>>>Vaughn Teegarden
>>
>> What you've proposed will be fine. The regulator
>> topology you cited is a carry through of the
>> earliest PM alternator regulators. It throttles
>> or controls alternator output to the system by
>> putting a dead short on the alternator's stator
>> windings during short periods where unrestrained
>> output would boost the system voltage too much.
>>
>> This is a very simple approach that has been
>> effective since day-one . . . but does have the
>> down-side of causing the alternator to run at
>> max output current 100% of the time whether that
>> energy is used by the electrical system or not.
>> Of course, if wire size and cooling considerations
>> for the alternator are carefully addressed, this
>> can produce a robust, reliable system.
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------)
>> ( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
>> ( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
>> ( appearance of being right . . . )
>> ( )
>> ( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>269.19.1/1220 - Release Date: 1/11/2008 6:09 PM
>
>
>incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------)
( . . . a long habit of not thinking )
( a thing wrong, gives it a superficial )
( appearance of being right . . . )
( )
( -Thomas Paine 1776- )
----------------------------------------
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: switch wiring |
Kevin
You may need a starter contactor or relay but an ON-OFF-momentary ON
switch can probably be wired to do the mags like that. I don't know if
you will find such a ready made diagram though (or anyone to recommend
it), as I think such a scheme would greatly increase the risk of injury
from a live mag. I can understand an OFF-Batt-Alt switch but generally I
try to avoid those 3 position switches as I find them awkward,
especially at night.
Also it may be more common to use a separate switch for each alternator.
That way one failed switch can't disable both alternators.
Ken
Kevin Klinefelter wrote:
> <kevann@gotsky.com>
>
> Bob and all,
>
> I have a couple questions.
>
> I am wiring a Rotax 914 in my Europa per Z-16(sort of). I want to use a
> switch for each "mag" that will be down-off, middle-on, momentary-up of
> both to start. Is there a drawing somewhere on the site that shows how
> to wire this?
>
> I also want to wire a switch to control two alternators, the rotax built
> indynamo and a Denso IR alternator mounted on the vac pad. I would like
> to use one switch; down-dynamo middle-off and up-main
> alternator(denso).Is there a drawing showing how to wire that?
>
> Thanks, Kevin
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Alternate Feed Switch, is it a Master Switch?? |
Before Cessna bought Columbia you could get the Columbia 400 wiring diagrams
from their web site. (have not checked lately). They have dual bus, dual
alternator with an essential bus diode fed from either bus.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leo
Holler
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 1:53 PM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Alternate Feed Switch, is it a Master
Switch??
Thanks Bob for an exceptional and thorough response. You very clearly took
the most of the "fog" out of my feeble interpretation of Section-23-1361.
I'll be able to better make my 337(Field Approval) case to FAA now, as well
as educate my friend.
> The point of disconnection must be adjacent to the sources controlled by
> the switch arrangement.
>
> Yup, unless the feeder is limited to 5A or less as described below:
Does the above mean that the 5A rule applies only if there is no
disconnection adjacent to the source? Also, do you consider the 8"
unprotected run from battery to Alternate Feed switch to be excessive? If
so, I can fuse it, or add the mini-contactor as you have suggested. Also, I
have heard that new Cessnas have Essential/Endurance buses installed. Have
you or anyone else heard of this and, if so, how did they handle the Master
Switch arrangement? A local Cessna dealer hinted that I could get their
schematic by buying the CD for several hundred dollars or by buying a new
aircraft. [Shocked] This forum seems much more user friendly. :D
Thanks again.
Leo
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176423#176423
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power |
Ron:
I'm using Z-11 architecture: single battery/single alternator. My e-bus
is already carring about 12 amps, so the idea behind the internal
battery EFIS was to wire to main bus. With that in mind, your
explaination of the Alternator Failure Procedure is what I wasn't
certain of and I believe you clarified and confirmed it.
Alternator Failure: 1- E-bus alternate feed is turned ON which powers
the
e-bus directly from the battery.
2- Immediately turn the Main Battery
Contactor OFF (DC Master Power
Switch) - Main Bus is now off-
line, main bus drops below about 12
volts and the EFIS resorts to it's
internal battery.
and no additional switches would be necessary.
Thanks
Hank
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Shannon
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: EFIS Battery Back-up Power
Hank,
If you have just one EFIS, it (or if you have two, the first one)
should be wired to the e-bus -- assuming you want to have the EFIS
available during endurance (battery only) flight ops -- as most of us
would like to have.
If you have two EFIS's, you may want to shut one down during endurance
ops, and the second one would therefore be wired to the main bus. (If
that second EFIS already has an automatic internal battery, you may have
to shut it down manually even though it's on the main bus, to save that
internal battery.) This is the way my dual AFS-3400 EFIS system is
wired.
The e-bus is normally fed from the main bus through a one-way diode.
When the alternator(s) fail, the e-bus alternate feed is turned ON which
powers the e-bus direct from the battery, i.e., not through the main
battery contactor. (For brief moment, the e-bus is then effectively fed
from two places: the battery upstream of the battery contactor, and the
main bus, from downstream of the battery contactor.) After the e-bus
alternate feed has been turned ON, you immediately turn the main battery
contactor OFF, to rapidly and positively shed those non-essential main
bus loads. That's the sequence (e-bus alt feed ON, then main battery
contactor OFF) to keep the e-bus powered and avoid rebooting things like
your EFIS that are on the e-bus when you shut down the main.
When the e-bus alternate feed is ON, and the main battery contactor
and main bus are OFF, the e-bus will not back feed the main bus because
the diode keeps current from flowing from the e-bus to the main bus.
I hope that helps explain the desired function and results.
Ron
On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 12:58 PM, Henry Trzeciakowski
<hammer408@comcast.net> wrote:
<hammer408@comcast.net>
Bob:
I'm planning to install a AFS 3400 with it's own internal battery
back-up...... fused it to my Main Bus..
How I visualize: main alternator goes off line, I kill the
alternator via
the master switch, turn on the E-Bus alternator feed switch....
Since the Main Bus will be de-energized due to a failed alternator,
I assume
that the EFIS will utilize it's internal battery to keep the EFIS
energized..... OR
is my thought process all wrong !!!
Do I need a seperate switch on my panel to turn the EFIS off,
eventhough the
Main Bus is de-energized....
What would the wiring architect be in this case ??
Thanks
Hank
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Nippondenso alternator question |
At 10:28 AM 7/10/2008 -0700, you wrote:
>
>>THANK YOU for your very nice reply!!
>>
<snip>
>>In any event its now my turn to start one subject at a time in replying
>>to your comments and questions.
Paul, how about we avoid turning this into an unnecessary and/or
unproductive research/science project . . . It would be useful to
craft a sort of mission statement where goals, impediments to
goals, questions and plans for acquiring data that go to aswering
those questions are identified up front. To that effort I'll offer
the following:
1) Since day-one, electrical systems in aircraft have offered
a means by which engine driven power sources may be turned on
and off at will of the pilot. This absolute ON/OFF control goes
to a number of issues that include but are not limited to
preflight testing, load management, ability to take a mis-behaving
system off line, and plan-B activities crafted to mitigate
effects of failure. I.e., failure tolerance.
2) The modern automotive alternator has a proven track record
in ground based vehicles that eclipses anything flying
by an order of 1000:1 or more. It's inarguable that sources
of automotive components from salvage yards up through the
chain to manufacturers of modern components offer the OBAM
aircraft community a treasure-trove of choices.
3) The shear magnitude of choices can be a boon in terms
of potential return on investment for performance and
reliability . . . and a bane in terms of the complexity
for choosing "suitable" hardware from an overwhelming
universe of products and sources.
4) As knowledgeable and experienced practitioners of the
art and sciences we can relieve OBAM aircraft owner/operator
concern for making choices while minimizing risk for having made
a "bad" choice? I'll have to qualify "bad" . . . EVERY
piece of hardware we choose to bolt to an airplane will fail
at some point in time irrespective of its source or perceived
quality. Failure can be due to quality issues . . . operation
outside design limits . . . or the thing simply wears out.
5) My personal preference for minimizing risk is to craft
failure tolerant architectures . . . if we do
that job well, then it doesn't matter if the platinum
plated part fails because some kid didn't tighten a
bolt (quality issue). . . or failed because the part is
one step above junk (design or manufacturing issue).
Failure tolerance is the most powerful tool for risk
management we can bring to the table.
6) You appear to be crafting a risk mitigation
approach along with relief of the decision making process
in the form of specific architectures crafted from
specific part numbers. You believe this approach
is attractive to potential customers. This is the
essence of entrepreneurial opportunity in what is
still (unlike TC aviation) a relatively free marketplace.
Your approach borrows from the legacies of TC aviation
by specifying a design and more controlled suite of
components. No doubt here are/will-be customers
attracted to this approach and I'm sure we all wish
you well in your endeavor. My entrepreneurial leanings
go to system integration hardware, products that help
the OBAM aircraft builder comfortably integrate a host
of choices into the airplane. But first, I need to achieve
an understanding of the simple-ideas that go into
our respective inventions . . . ingredients that drive
recipes for success.
7) We have a common need to exercise a solid grasp
of the same simple-ideas even if our respective inventions
have no competitive features. The most pressing question
for me is understanding the load-dump characteristics
of our favorite alternators under conditions likely to
be encountered in a typical installation on a Lycoming -
spinning like a whirling dervish and subject to
unloading under any condition between zero and full
output with normal regulation. This means knowing the magnitude,
source impedance and timing of the transient that occurs
after sudden load removal at all corners of the
operating envelope.
8) The very first experiment I plan to conduct after
the alternator drive stand is running is based on
the sketch at:
On a 60A machine with battery disconnected,
I'd get data plots of load dumps at 4, 6, 8, 10
and 12KRPM for fixed load of 50A with a 10A dump,
fixed load of 40A with 10A and 20A dumps, fixed
of 30A and 10, 20 30A dumps . . . I think you'll see
the pattern here.
The goal would be to calculate/measure the peak
voltage, total energy and duration of each overshoot
event (or series of overshoots assuming the regulator
control loop is poorly damped). I would probably
set up to run external regulators (of the type
normally installed inside) so that I could explore
the differences between various regulators while
holding the alternator constant.
Obviously a big task to gather enough data to
be reasonably sure we understand the majority of
the fleet . . . assuming we discover wide variances.
(9) The next tests would involve system behavior under
runaway conditions. Artificially fail a regulator
and plot dv/dt at the bus and di/dt at the battery
with various fixed loads . . . one suite of plots
with a fresh battery, another with a battery that
has fallen to 1/2 capacity or less.
Having this data on only one combination of
alternator/regulator would set the order of magnitude
for energies involved. Once the equipment for the
testing is in place and the procedure tuned, it would
probably take less than a half hour to test any other
combination.
I ran all these tests that supported products I designed
for Beech and others many moons ago. But the only
data acquisition we had then were storage 'scopes and
chart recorders. You could "eyeball" the data for gross
suitability to task but real energy studies were exceedingly
difficult . . . they were never done. We can do a much
better job today.
The task is to characterize the dynamic response to
load change for a normally functioning as well as
a runaway alternator. The data collected would allow
a designer to craft systems that deal quietly and
capably with the voltages, currents and energies that
are present during recovery from both a load-dump
and hard-failure conditions.
This was the kind of data I was hoping to gather
some years back when there was discussion about
you and Eric teaming on some sort of activity. I
wasn't sure exactly what equipment you were going to
have access to . . . or what testing satisfied
curiosities for your project . . . but I had hopes
of piggy-backing studies above if you didn't already
have similar data.
Do I presume that for your needs, no further
investigation is necessary/useful to your task?
Know that all of my own test results will be published
on aeroelectric.com and that my equipment will be available
to you (or anyone else in the OBAM aviation community)
should new questions arise.
I'm going to have Zach start stripping out the automotive
test setup wiring from the test stand next week. We'll
leave only the 3-phase motor drive wiring intact. We'll
Z-12 and Z-13/8 architectures in the stand. I already
have a small drive stand for second alternators up to 20A.
I have a static phase converter to install in the
big stand. We'll see we can get the motor and variable
speed drives to run. That will be a BIG step. Not sure
if we'll be able to do real testing before we have to
pack up and move to M.L. I have a contractor running
a fat 240 feeder to the shop at the same time we excavate
for a new retaining wall at the back of the yard. So the
heavy/dirty/ugly work should be behind us at both
locations this summer.
Bob . . .
Message 7
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| Subject: | Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE*** |
Bob: A couple of switches, the burnt fast-ons, and some sample terminations
on your way by airmail today. Hope you have time to add a learned second
opinion after you have a look.
Thanks, Vern
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Robert L. Nuckolls, III
> Sent: September 11, 2008 2:16 PM
> To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Switch problem ***MAJOR UPDATE***
>
>
>
> --> <nuckolls.bob@cox.net>
>
>
> The photo at:
>
> http://www.vx-aviation.com/rv-9a/photos/Electrical/IMG_0935_2.JPG
>
> shows very localized discoloration of the terminal
> insulator. There's a large temperature gradient when
> you consider heat flow path from a high-resistance
> contact within the switch out through riveted joint,
> terminal tab, fast-on socket and to the plastic insulator.
>
> I'm not seeing any signs of heating of the switch-tab
> or the fast-on socket. The fact you ARE seeing so much
> effects of heating due to poor contact in so many places
> places the application tool in question. See the wire-
> grip photos at:
>
> http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/CrimpTools/crimptools.html
>
> This is a critical issue for mating tools-to-terminals-to-wire.
>
> If you would care to send me some exemplar terminals installed
> on wires, I'd be pleased to get a look at the microscopic details
> of the wire grip.
>
> Bob . . .
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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Hi Guys
Can someone recommend a 'dimmer' for the instrument lights, that will achieve this:
three position switch - Off- On -Dim
Regards
John
Sent from my iPad
----x--O--x----
Message 9
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You could always get a Lucas automobile dimmer. It has 3positions OFF DIM
and FLICKER
Rich
Sent from my iPhone
> On Dec 8, 2017, at 3:04 AM, John Tipton <jmtipton@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Guys
>
> Can someone recommend a 'dimmer' for the instrument lights, that will achieve
this: three position switch - Off- On -Dim
>
> Regards
>
> John
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> ----x--O--x----
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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Do you mean that you want off and two fixed brightnesses (dim and full) or do you
want off and an adjustable brightness up to full?
If the former, then you just need a SPDT [OFF-ON-ON] switch and a high wattage
resistor of a value that gives the brightness you desire. Dim goes through the
switch then through the resistor, bright just goes through the switch. We can
help with resistor value and wattage if you can post specifics about your installation.
If you want adjustable brightness, then Eric Jones makes/sells a linear dimmer
unit here...
http://www.periheliondesign.com/egpavr.htm
Eric
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476250#476250
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Clever Wiring for Lamp Dimmer |
At 11:51 PM 12/7/2017, you wrote:
>Question from a neophyte....does the dimmer not create some kind of
>electrical "noise"?
Some do, most don't . . . but there is no 'general rule'
Emacs!
Illumination feeders to multiple swithces
can be 'daisy cahined' with short segments
of wire crimped into the fast-ons as suggested
above.
Eric Jones offers a little dimmer assembly (noise
free) that would work nicely with this task.
https://goo.gl/ndNhX3
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Clever Wiring for Lamp Dimmer |
Thanks, everybody.
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
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