Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
2. 10:47 AM - Re: Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 11:47 AM - Re:RCA video camera feed splitter (CORRECTION) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 11:56 AM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 01:33 PM - Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ (Steve Stearns)
6. 02:09 PM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Art Zemon)
7. 02:17 PM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Alec Myers)
8. 02:37 PM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Art Zemon)
9. 03:12 PM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Sebastien)
10. 03:58 PM - Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! (Art Zemon)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
At 05:43 AM 1/27/2018, you wrote:
>Bob,
>There is an account of the incident on Brian
>Deford=99s website located at
><http://deford.com/cozy/fire.html>http://deford.com/cozy/fire.html.
>
>I am also considering installing the starter
>solenoid on the inside (cabin side) of the
>firewall. I also plan on protecting alternator B
>leads with fusible links sized to protect the
>wire ( larger than the alternator capacity). In
>this way, any wire crossing the firewall will be protected.
"The close ups of the engine/firewall show where
the fire originated, but have not yielded any
clues to me on the exact component that failed.
I'm more convinced as time has gone on and I've
had a chance to think about the failure modes
that a failure of one of the contactors,
particularly the starter contactor, is the most
likely cause of the electrical fire and not a
short circuit of the cable to the firewall.
However, it can likely never be proved."
It's unfortunate that the remains around the fire's origin
were not examined more closely. I cannot imagine how a contactor
would fail and release energy to ignite adjacent flammables.
Correct me if in error. It seems that airplanes of these
materials have a structurally composite firewall with a
thin, steel sheet on the engine side. If point of origin
was the fat-wire's firewall penetration, arc damage to the
wire's stranding at the edge of the firewall sheet would be
a tell.
He said the initial smoke was light colored which does
suggest burning insulation . . . but changed to black
no doubt when structural plastics began to burn. It
is VERY difficult to burn the insulation on a fat wire,
that's why light aircraft generally do not 'protect'
fat wires . . . they don't develop the kind of hard
fault necessary conduct current that would heat the
wire to levels that damage the insulation.
Fat wires that rub grounded airframe are 'soft' faults
that arc away and generally erodes the airframe with
only localized heating. In this case, the localized
heating may have been sandwiched tightly with the
composite structure of the firewall which became
initiation-fuel for what followed.
Beech failure analysis files include an incident in
New Mexico on a King Air that experienced sudden
disconnect of elevator cables while on final. The
pilot did a go around and managed to fly the airplane
using only pitch trim and accomplished a safe landing.
Inspection revealed that a windshield de-ice inverter's
6AWG DC power wires were misplaced during a maintenance
event and had been rubbing on the elevator cable. Motion
of the cable eventually wore through the insulation and
intermittent arcing ensued. I forget how many flight
hours between the service and the incident . . . but it
was a lot! It took a long time to eat through the strands
of the control cable . . . but the copper wire was hardly
damaged, nor was there a lot of damage to the wire's
insulation. No smoke was detected by crew.
This but one example of a 'soft' fault that did not
open the breaker protecting the wire but ultimately
parted the elevator control cable.
I'm unable to hypothesize a chain of events that
migrated from a stable condition at the time of battery
removal and a high-energy release of battery energy
within minutes of battery replacement. If the point
of origin was at the edge of the firewall sheet, this
may well have been another example of soft-fault that
had been going on for some time but, like those elevator
cables, too small to be noticed.
Brian's story is certainly sad and distressing to contemplate.
But I don't think there is enough data to suggest that
any re-arrangement of hardware will make this already rare
event even less probable. No process provides more confidence
in a design than on-the-fly-failure-mode- effects-analysis
. . . as every part is installed, be constantly aware of
ways that part can be compromised with unhappy if not dangerous
consequences.
Proximity of combustibles (firewall honeycomb?) with
potential arc generators (firewall steel sheet) are
combinations worthy of extra attention.
Being a low risk pilot calls for situational awareness
and staying ahead of the airplane. Low risk fabrication
is no different.
Bob . . .
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
>
>Not to be critical of Brian in any way, and in the discussion I
>discovered in support of placing the starter solenoid on the cold
>side of the firewall, was a point made that he "didn't turn off the
>master" which controls the power flow through the big power cable,
>as is a prominent feature of #2 above. I understand doing analysis
>on past events, and looking at standard practices in an attempt to
>mitigate potential issues (which is exactly what I'm attempting
>here), but Brian's scenario isn't the only reported instance of
>smoking wires in a pusher, it's simply the most tragic (that I know of).
But has there been any forensic analysis of
cause/effect in any of these incidents?
If wires 'smoked', were they small wires
improperly protected or fat wires improperly
installed? Did quantitative analysis
show that the 'incidents' were more prevalent
in pushers as opposed to tractor airframes?
I think the problem is being over-worried . . .
concerns which are certainly understandable
but for reasons based more on lack of information
than from rational actions to reduce risk.
To be sure, fire wall penetrations of all stripe
have figured in failures. I recall one incident
on a tractor airplane where a bulkhead fitting
on a fuel line did not receive the benefit of
safety-wired flare-nuts. The line leaked and
an in-flight, fuel-fed fire ensued.
I can recall dozens of articles in the aviation
mags and publications by Tony B et. als. where
reliable fire wall penetration is discuesed
in detail. The air framers I've worked for had
books of process and practice specifications
for such things . . . books that have seen
only minor revision over decades . . .
As a class of incident, these are way
down the charts in frequency of occurrence.
Virtually all such events have root cause in
failure to observe legacy design rules that
have served well on hundreds of millions of vehicles
of all kind for over a century . . . not the
least of which are airplanes.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re:RCA video camera feed splitter (CORRECTION) |
At 06:00 PM 12/4/2017, you wrote:
>
>
>nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
> > A D-sub housing I've found quite useful is the 956 series devices
> from NorComp. They have an inside height of 0.570 and will allow
> you to socket a chip on the far end . . . the board deflects off
> centerline by about 0.050.
>
>Bob, your timing is impeccable. I turned on the computer to order
>some parts and saw your post. I'll get the 956-series backshell. I
>was looking at NorComp's 983-series, but yours looks nearly
>identical for interior volume and is 1/4 the cost.
>
>Once I have the parts I'll do a quick cardboard template of the PCB
>before I order those, to be sure they'll fit.
the optimum board size is 1.175 x 0.830 for the 15-pin
shells. Let me know what you find for 25-pin . . . if you
need to go that big.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute |
Today!
At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly
>31%. Please take this opportunity to show your support for the
>Matronics Lists and Forums!
Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
to access their content offerings without having
to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
for it some where along the line.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Starter Contactor location on a Long-EZ |
Hi Wade,
I've got O235 Longeze N45FC. It's coming up on 1400 hrs or so but only 400
hrs of that is after I purchased it and completely rewired it (along with
quite a bit of other work).
I thought long and hard about the battery, alternator, starter and
associated contactors issue before I made my decisions. This included
reviewing the Bob N. wiring architecture diagrams, searching forum archives
and posting my own questions.
>From this work I concluded that Bob's preference (IIRC) was to run a fat
wire from master contactor (up front) to starter contactor (in back) and
then have the alternator B+ "piggy back" on the same wire (i.e. it goes
from alternator to starter contactor). This eliminates the weight of one
wire of sufficient gauge for the alternator current (in my case #8 for a
40A alternator) but, in trade, you have a fat wire that is hot whenever the
master contactor is enabled running the full length of the fuselage. Bob
provided referenced as to why this was considered acceptable.
My own cost/benefit analysis led me to buck the aeroelectric conventional
wisdom and do it different.
In my bird the B+ gets its own #8 wire from the alternator in back to a 40A
ANL in front and from there to the master contactor. I've reserved room
for a starter contactor up front, next to the master contactor for the
starter contactors. I will pull a new + fat wire for the starter should I
reinstall it (I took it out when I overhauled everything and haven't seen
it worth reinstalling). I will also have to replace my existing #8 ground
wire from the front to the back with a fat wire should I want the starter.
(Truth be told, I will also have to install a new flywheel as I removed the
ring gear and supporting metal to reduce weight).
In my mind, the advantage of eliminating a single #8 wire in trade for a
hot-whenever-the-master-is-on and otherwise totally unprotected fat wire
running the full length of my aircraft just wasn't worth it.
It was well after that conclusion that I also concluded that the
convenience of a starter wasn't worth the weight and additional failure
modes. If I was running a high-compression O320 or O360, I might have come
to a different conclusion on this point, but not the previous one.
I encourage you to gather all the input you can and consider all your own
tradeoffs, which it appears is exactly what you are doing.
Best of luck! And I look forward to meeting you at a canard fly-in one of
these days!
Steve Stearns
O235 Longeze N45FC
Boulder/Longmont CO
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
note?
-- Art Z.
On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>
> >
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists this
> year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Please
> take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and
> Forums!
>
>
> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
> to access their content offerings without having
> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>
> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
> for it some where along the line.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your soul
. So it=99s not free....
On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google Groups
, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my note?
-- Art Z.
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@ae
roelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
m>
>>
>> Dear Listers,
>>
>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists this
year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Please t
ake this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and Forums
!
>
> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
> to access their content offerings without having
> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>
> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
> for it some where along the line.
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am
I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and it
includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to free
and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
-- Art Z.
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your s
oul. So
> it=99s not free....
>
> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
> note?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>
>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>
>> dralle@matronics.com>
>>
>> Dear Listers,
>>
>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists thi
s
>> year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%. Plea
se
>> take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lists and
>> Forums!
>>
>>
>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>> to access their content offerings without having
>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>
>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>> for it some where along the line.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob . . .
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
I take it you could only join this Google Group if you already have a
google social media account?
On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
> customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and it
> includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to fre
e
> and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
> paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>
>> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your
soul. So
>> it=99s not free....
>>
>> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>
>> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
>> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received my
>> note?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>>
>>> dralle@matronics.com>
>>>
>>> Dear Listers,
>>>
>>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>>> this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%.
>>> Please take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Lis
ts
>>> and Forums!
>>>
>>>
>>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>>> to access their content offerings without having
>>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>>
>>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>>> for it some where along the line.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Fund Raiser Behind By 31% - Please Contribute Today! |
No. Any email works
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Jan 28, 2018 5:33 PM, "Sebastien" <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> I take it you could only join this Google Group if you already have a
> google social media account?
>
> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 2:35 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
>> Well, if you don't want to be the product then you can be a paying
>> customer. Cost is a measly $50 per year for a paid G Suite account and i
t
>> includes an unlimited number of Google Groups. That's darned close to fr
ee
>> and a helluva lot less than the cost of running a server and possibly
>> paying for bandwidth. Beats begging for dollars.
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You don=99t pay money for it, but you do have to give G**gle your
soul. So
>>> it=99s not free....
>>>
>>> On Jan 28, 2018, at 17:04, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>>
>>> I wrote to Matt but never got a reply. I suggested switched to Google
>>> Groups, which are 100% free. Not even ads. Do you know if he received m
y
>>> note?
>>>
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> At 09:12 AM 11/27/2017, you wrote:
>>>>
>>>> dralle@matronics.com>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Listers,
>>>>
>>>> The percentage of members making a Contribution to support the Lists
>>>> this year is currently behind last year by at this time by roughly 31%
.
>>>> Please take this opportunity to show your support for the Matronics Li
sts
>>>> and Forums!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some of my favorite sources on the 'net have
>>>> been offering 'add-free-passes' that allow you
>>>> to access their content offerings without having
>>>> to hat-dance through the weeds . . . I'm really
>>>> enjoying it and the cost is trivial.
>>>>
>>>> Let's not abuse time time, talent and resources
>>>> Matt has dedicated to this endeavor for all these
>>>> years. Come on folks! There ain't no such thing
>>>> as a free lunch . . . you can't eat ice cream every
>>>> day if you don't feed the cow . . . somebody pays
>>>> for it some where along the line.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bob . . .
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
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