---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/21/18: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:28 AM - Re: R2300 Wiring (user9253) 2. 07:39 AM - Re: Regulator set point (Ernest Christley) 3. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: R2300 Wiring (Charlie England) 4. 07:51 AM - Re: R2300 Wiring (dj_theis) 5. 08:07 AM - Re: Regulator set point (Charlie England) 6. 08:26 AM - Re: Re: R2300 Wiring (FLYaDIVE) 7. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: R2300 Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 09:08 AM - Re: Regulator set point (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 09:11 AM - Re: Regulator set point (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 09:23 AM - Re: Regulator set point (Jan de Jong) 11. 10:36 AM - Re: R2300 Wiring (user9253) 12. 07:01 PM - Re: Re: R2300 Wiring (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:28:40 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring From: "user9253" It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too? -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478770#478770 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:02 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator set point That's some powerful information, Bob.=C2- I'm not in a position to experiment on this point, but these tests would in dicate that a lead-acid and LiiFePO battery could live together.=C2- The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than $100) LiFePO on the fire wall to get cranking amps, and then locate an AGM in the tail for endurance loads.=C2- With the necessity to carry cranking loads removed, a 14 to 1 6 AWG wire could replace the 00 AWG starter cable running the entire length of the airframe. Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, but th is mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders. On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 8:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" wrote: At 08:40 PM 3/19/2018, you wrote: I've switched to using a LiFePObattery.=C2- I accept the limited power re serve it has in the case of agenerator issue, because I'm not a big fan of really long flightlegs=C2- and the weight benefit for my Corvair equipped 601XL isexceptional.=C2- That being said, more reserve is a good thing. =C2-My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at 13.8V.=C2- There wassome talk a few years ago of modifying the regulator to a higher setpoi nt.=C2- How would this feat be accomplished?=C2- I'd like to setit betw een 14.3 and 14.5. =C2-If it's a potted assembly, like many small pm rectifier/ =C2-regulators are, then adjusting the setpoint is not practical =C2-and pretty much impossible. If it can be disassembled and =C2-the parts are accessible, it MAY be possible to make =C2-some adjustment to the voltage control circuits. =C2-Actually, you might consider leaving it at 13.8 . . . if =C2-indeed it really runs at that value or a tad higher. =C2-Seehttps://goo.gl/vCd59M =C2-Note that the LiFePO4 cells will achieve 100% charge =C2-or very close to it with a charging level of 3.4v per =C2-cell (13.6 volts on the bus). But as the experiment =C2-shows, there is a tipping point at about 3.3 volts =C2-per cell that severely limits energy replacement =C2-in the LiFePO4 cells. So if you're running 13.8, you =C2-can probably leave it alone. =C2- Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:06 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring From: Charlie England On 3/21/2018 8:28 AM, user9253 wrote: > > It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too? > > -------- > Joe Gores > The Revmaster stuff has been around for a really long time. Likely since before switching regulators were affordable to anyone except the military & NASA. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:51:53 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring From: "dj_theis" "It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too?" ************ Those are good questions Joe. I've asked the builder (Joe Harvoth) precisely that and not gotten any complete explanation. My suspicion is that, like many mechanically focused shops, they (Revmaster) chose to outsource the electrical portion of their project. They originally had an external, belt driven PM alternator and at some point integrated a design into the flywheel and added their separately powered, 8 "coil-on-plug" CDI ignition. I think his perspective is that it works "well enough" so why mess with it. I do know that there are quite a few examples of the R2300 with this regulator system out in the wild. I've not heard of any issues with it. The Thatcher CX5 uses this engine, along with the same regulator and the only change they made on the engine is to change the carb. My thought was to run it with the original design (on the ground) and try to get enough data on current, voltage and heat, to make a reasonable decision on any needed changes. I plan on running the engine, for the first time later this spring. My hope was to get some feedback (like yours) from the forum on the overall plans for wiring to avoid rework. Once it's wired and running, I can get some data. Bob N. mentioned in an earlier post on the R2300, that the engine designer is the one to run these tests. He suggested (and I don't disagree) that the best method would be with a mocked up system on a bench. I tried to purchase enough hardware to achieve that but ran into a lot of resistance from Revmaster. So the backup plan is in place, to learn as much as I can with the running engine example of the charging circuit. Dan Theis. Sonex 1362 -------- Scratch building Sonex #1362 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478774#478774 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:48 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator set point From: Charlie England Don't forget that the wire still must carry both charge and discharge currents. A long run of even #14 could have significant voltage drop on a 12V system. On 3/21/2018 9:38 AM, Ernest Christley wrote: > That's some powerful information, Bob. > > I'm not in a position to experiment on this point, but these tests > would indicate that a lead-acid and LiiFePO battery could live > together. The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than > $100) LiFePO on the firewall to get cranking amps, and then locate an > AGM in the tail for endurance loads. With the necessity to carry > cranking loads removed, a 14 to 16 AWG wire could replace the 00 AWG > starter cable running the entire length of the airframe. > > Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, > but this mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders. > > > On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 8:29 PM, "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > wrote: > > > At 08:40 PM 3/19/2018, you wrote: >> I've switched to using a LiFePO battery. I accept the limited power >> reserve it has in the case of a generator issue, because I'm not a >> big fan of really long flight legs and the weight benefit for my >> Corvair equipped 601XL is exceptional. That being said, more reserve >> is a good thing. My Kubota regulator for the PM generator is set at >> 13.8V. There was some talk a few years ago of modifying the >> regulator to a higher set point. How would this feat be >> accomplished? I'd like to set it between 14.3 and 14.5. >> > > If it's a potted assembly, like many small pm rectifier/ > regulators are, then adjusting the setpoint is not practical > and pretty much impossible. If it can be disassembled and > the parts are accessible, it MAY be possible to make > some adjustment to the voltage control circuits. > > Actually, you might consider leaving it at 13.8 . . . if > indeed it really runs at that value or a tad higher. > See https://goo.gl/vCd59M > > Note that the LiFePO4 cells will achieve 100% charge > or very close to it with a charging level of 3.4v per > cell (13.6 volts on the bus). But as the experiment > shows, there is a tipping point at about 3.3 volts > per cell that severely limits energy replacement > in the LiFePO4 cells. So if you're running 13.8, you > can probably leave it alone. > > > Bob . . . > > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:26:11 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring Guys: Switching Power Supplies have their own problems. The main problem being FREQUENCY. If the wrong frequency for the switching is chosen there can be two types problems: 1 - The frequency is high enough to radiate like a transmitter either on the first harmonic or higher, 2 - Again frequency and be at high power audio frequencies which can get into the planes IF and/or audio system giving an annoying background noise. Just like the whine of an Alternator or the squeal of a Strobe. My earliest recollection of Switching Power Supplies comes with the old desk top computers. NASA ain't got no-ting on progress. Barry On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Charlie England wrote: > ceengland7@gmail.com> > > On 3/21/2018 8:28 AM, user9253 wrote: > >> >> It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the TMG-3096 >> half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching >> rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC without >> getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too? >> >> -------- >> Joe Gores >> >> The Revmaster stuff has been around for a really long time. Likely since > before switching regulators were affordable to anyone except the military & > NASA. > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:58 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring At 08:28 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote: > >It would be interesting to know why Revmaster chose to use the >TMG-3096 half wave shunt regulator instead of a full wave switching >rectifier/regulator. Wouldn't the latter put out a smoother DC >without getting as hot? And wouldn't the alternator coils run cooler too? It's been my experience that most engine/airframe gurus are pretty focused on the cost/performance of their central discipline . . . while things- electric are not so well understood. We can only guess as to the through processes behind the decision . . . but indeed, a full-wave, series controlled rectifier/regulator is the most energy efficient of the simple regulators. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:46 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator set point At 09:38 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote: >That's some powerful information, Bob. > >I'm not in a position to experiment on this point, >but these tests would indicate that a lead-acid and >LiiFePO battery could live together. Sure . . . this has always been the case in terms of normal performance. I.e. crank the engine, support all loads with an altenrator including recharge of the battery and then shut down leaving all batteries fully charged. A 14.2 volt set-point has been the touchstone for operating lead-acid batteries since day-one, that same voltage is quite acceptable for LiFePO4. Lithium products that do no contain smart battery management systems are vulnerable to individual cell damage due to unbalanced recharging and cell destruction if discharged below some tipping point . . . generally pegged at 2.8 volts per cell (11.2v bus). The lead-acid battery will continue to deliver useful energy below this value . . . but not for long. Assuming that you limit endurance discharging of the 'barefooted' lithium battery to 11.2 then you can essentially tap ALL chemical energy on board without risking damage to the lithium product. But then, if the alternator is TU and you're boring holes in a very dark sky over unfriendly terrain, then the health and well-being of your lithium battery is, perhaps, of little concern. > The CG challenged builder could put a small (less than $100) > LiFePO on the firewall to get cranking amps, and then locate an AGM > in the tail for endurance loads. With the necessity to carry > cranking loads removed, a 14 to 16 AWG wire could replace the 00 > AWG starter cable running the entire length of the airframe. Nobody needs 00AWG wire in a light plane for any reason EXCEPT comoposit seaplanes with big batteries in the nose for weight/balance concerns and engines high and aft on pylons. Everybody else is in good shape with 2AWG cranking feeders. For the scenario you propose, I wouldn't drop the rear battery feeder lower than 10AWG and I would protect that feeder with a fat maxifuse on the order of 60A. Wiring up front for all other cranking circuits could be 4 or even 6AWG. The fact that the lithium product is up front on short a short leash of fat wires insures lower voltage drops under normal charge/discharge cycles making your 13.8v set-point less problematic. It's worth a try. >Mixing battery chemistries is generally discouraged for good reason, >but this mix could be beneficial to a lot of builders. Every chemistry has it's own 'happy-space' boundaries where maximized performance can be exploited. Mixed chemistries can offer considerable overlap of happy-space where reliable operation can be achieved but with tighter boundaries. Lithium products with agile BMS can be intermixed with lead-acid with relative impunity. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:11:07 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator set point At 10:07 AM 3/21/2018, you wrote: >Don't forget that the wire still must carry both charge and >discharge currents. A long run of even #14 could have significant >voltage drop on a 12V system. Bingo. Give the man a Kewpie Doll! Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Regulator set point From: Jan de Jong I would like to mention: check any danger of high currents if a LiFePO4 battery (13.2V) is directly parallelled with a lead-acid battery (12.6V). ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:17 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring From: "user9253" Dan T, I see no errors in your page 1 schematic. Having two capacitors does not hurt anything. The fuse size for the EFIS seems small. The low voltage monitor module is not really needed if the EFIS has that function. If you wanted to experiment, you could replace one of the half wave regulators with one of those John Deere clone regulators. Then compare the temperature of the half wave regulator to the full wave one. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=478781#478781 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:38 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: R2300 Wiring >Guys: > >Switching Power Supplies have their own >problems. The main problem being FREQUENCY. If >the wrong frequency for the switching is chosen >there can be two types problems: > >1 - The frequency is high enough to radiate like >a transmitter either on the first harmonic or higher, > >2 - Again frequency and be at high power audio >frequencies which can get into the planes IF >and/or audio system giving an annoying >background noise. Just like the whine of an >Alternator or the squeal of a Strobe. > >My earliest=C2 recollection=C2 of Switching Power >Supplies comes with the old desk top >computers.=C2 NASA ain't got no-ting on progress. > >Barry Yeahhh . . . sort of . . . The term "switching" has been loosly applied to a lot of architectures wherein solid state devices, SCRs, Triacs, FETs, PNP, NPN etc are used in an all or nothing operation. The term 'switchmode' was coined late in the game to differentiate the relatively high frequency step-up/step-down power supplies wherein energy was STORED on the circuit's reactances. Waaayyy back when, ARC and others put the first transistors into vacuum tube appliances where the transistors were used as audio amplifiers and power supplies. As power supplies, the transistors did indeed operate as either fully on or completely off . . . i.e. they mimicked the 'switch' contacts of the contemporary electro- mechanical vibrators used to convert DC to AC for elevation in transformers to supply high voltage for vacuum tubes. These were exactly the same kind of supply used to generate high voltage for the strobe lights . . . a really whoopi-doo thing for airplanes in 1960. A bit later, the small engines industry perceived value in adding dc power supplies to small wheeled vehicles like scooters, riding lawn mowers, small motor cycles, etc. The PM alternator with a stone simple triggered SCR rectifier, regulator did an almost pretty good job of charging a battery. Advances in power magnetics and transistors allowed efficient designs at higher frequencies. It was not uncommon for the optimal HV power supply to run at 1 to 4 Khz in 1970, 1 to 10 MHz or even higher is practical now. Increases in operating frequency translated directly into smaller and lighter products that do the same job. Technology used in contemporary PM rectifier/regulators stores no energy, it can only control it by modulating the duty cycle of ON-time for the 'switches' . . . which are silicon controlled rectifiers or TRIACS. The frequency of operation for virtually all of these products is on the order of a few hundred Hertz and with ripple voltages well inside the DO-170 design limits for aircraft DC power. So while all these devices do some form of 'switching' with either series or shunt configurations, the potential for EMC issues is minuscule. Efficiency is another matter but interference problems are nil. There are lots of strobe systems still flying with Royer oscillators operating in the audible frequencies and these have been known to conduct noise at the operating frequency onto the bus. Constant-current LED power supplies do have a potential for EMC issues. They operate in the MegaHertz ranges as do HID lights that were once feared to be problematic. I was able to test some donated HID fixtures in the lab and found no noise levels of concern. So just to put the 'switching' thingy in perspective, ALL modern appliances have solid state devices operating as electrical switches. But unless they operate at outside protected enclosures and at speeds and power levels of concern, the potential for electro-magnetic distress is small. For PM alternator rectifier/regulators the risk is zero. Bob . . . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.