AeroElectric-List Digest Archive

Tue 04/03/18


Total Messages Posted: 14



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:29 AM - Re: Flap Switch (Pat Hatch)
     2. 05:40 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     3. 05:47 AM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     4. 05:51 AM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     5. 06:15 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
     6. 06:51 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Charlie England)
     7. 06:57 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (John)
     8. 08:25 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
     9. 08:45 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    10. 10:29 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    11. 01:45 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
    12. 03:18 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Alec Myers)
    13. 03:27 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
    14. 10:07 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:29:21 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Flap Switch
    From: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
    Yes . . . You need a switch that with a restrained handle such as the Honeywell 2TL1-5. The Dash 5 is a 3 position that is stable in two extremes and spring loaded out of the third? Is this the action your seeking? Shop around a bit . . . they come in all $sizes$ . . . [url=https://goo.gl/FQfTRF]https://goo.gl/FQfTRF[/url] https://goo.gl/va48he [u][/u] [u][/u] Bob . . . [/quote][/quote] Thanks, Bob, that's exactly what I was looking for! :D -------- RV-6 RV-7 Flying Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479002#479002


    Message 2


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    Time: 05:40:54 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to >wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on >them, but I can't find this diagram any >longer.=C2 The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors. > >Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about >the best way to wire the pmags so that=C2 you can also do maintenance on them? I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't find anything different than the presently published Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in any specific manner to do maintenance. Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for support if it proves useful. Bob . . .


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:47:25 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: insulation support for crimps
    At 05:11 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: > >Bob et al. > >I understand from reading lots of sources that >small wires crimped into, for example, ring >terminals, should have insulation support, like >that provided by PIDG brand insulated crimps. > >If I use an uninsulated crimp like a Molex >=9Ckrimptite=9D and I oversleeve with heat >shrink tubing around the barrel of the crimp and >extending over a half inch of the wire >insulation, does that make up adequately for the >lack of other insulation support? Which Molex product are you citing? All the Molex product I have here features both wire and insulation grip features. I'm unaware of any product that doesn't offer insulation grip. Having said that, yes . . . heat shrink . . . particularly double-wall adhesive heat shrink is suited for the addition of insulation support on terminations that don't already have it. For example, when bringing a wire onto an etched circuit board I will either bring the insulation down tight on the surface and spot the junction with E6000 (or similar) or better yet, crimp a d-sub mail onto the wire, support the insulation with DWA shrink the solder the pin to the board. This last technique has been used on countless terminations in my experience for 40 years. Assemblies so treated have passed the most severe DO160 shake-n-bake tests with no problems. Bob . . .


    Message 4


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    Time: 05:51:11 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: insulation support for crimps
    At 05:46 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: >Alec: > >The insulated lug below a #10 AWG is a FAA requirement. Is this a requirement or a recommended practice. AC43-13, like DO160 are citations of acceptable shop practices but they are not requirements. Citing these documents can relive you of the task to justify your alternative practice but they do not prohibit alteratives. Bob . . .


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:15:07 AM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    Thanks Bob - I've sent the drawing I have offline - I didn't want it to get out into the wild until you had a look as it might cause some confusion. Regards, Mickey Mickey Coggins On 3 April 2018 at 14:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can > do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.=C3=82 The > Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors. > > Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the > pmags so that=C3=82 you can also do maintenance on them? > > > I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't > find anything different than the presently published > Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in > any specific manner to do maintenance. > > Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such > a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for > support if it proves useful. > > > Bob . . . >


    Message 6


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    Time: 06:51:21 AM PST US
    From: Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Warm Toggle Switch
    Care to show us how you arrive at that last statement, using Ohm's Law? On 4/2/2018 8:39 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote: John: Yes, the switch may be the problem. Your switch S700-1-3 is a 15 Amp rating on AC. Which is NOT 15 Amps on DC. A good rule of thumb is the switch should be able to handle DOUBLE the DC amperage that the circuit draws. There are a couple of ways of determining the DC rating of an AC Switch. You can say take .707 x Rating or .637 x Rating. So: 15 Amps x .707 = 10.6 Amps // or 15 Amps x .637 = 9.5 Amps. They are average type switches, they are not hermetically sealed, the contacts are not silver plated. There could very easily be corrosion on the contacts and that raises the resistance of the circuit. The higher resistance can very easily cause HEAT at that contact point AND you are FEELING IT! Find a better quality switch. I like taking a DPST (Double Pole Single Throw) Switch and wiring BOTH Sides together so it functions as a SPST (Single Throw Single Throw) Switch. So, in your case you would have a total AC Rating of 30 Amps which would be able to handle either 19 Amps or 21 Amps DC. AND the physical properties of the switch would be much more robust that that S700-1-3 switch. BUT! DON'T STOP THERE! Other things in the circuit can be causing higher current draw. 1 - Sales brochures generally BOAST better ratings that that actually exist. The Strobe may very well be drawing higher than advertised. 2 - Check the connections of the switch. If they are SCREW Terminals use star lock washers. If they are FAST-ON terminals, how easy do they slide on/off? Squeeze them with needle nose pliers so they are Very Snug. 3 - How are other connections in the circuit? 4 - You mentioned FUSE, check the fuse holder for any signs of corrosion. Clean it with Scotch-Brite and Contact Cleaner. Resistance is resistance no matter where it is and that causes an increase in current draw. Barry > >


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:57:56 AM PST US
    From: John <rv6a@rogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Warm Toggle Switch
    Ken, Barry and Paul Thanks for your responses and excellent advice. Much appreciated. John C Rv6A


    Message 8


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    Time: 08:25:27 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Warm Toggle Switch
    At 08:39 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: >John: > >Yes, the switch may be the problem.=C2 Your >switch S700-1-3=C2 is a 15 Amp rating on >AC.=C2 Which is NOT 15 Amps on DC.=C2 A good rule >of thumb is the switch should be able to handle >DOUBLE the DC amperage that the circuit >draws.=C2 There are a couple of ways of >determining=C2 the DC rating of an AC >Switch.=C2 You can say take .707 x Rating or .637 >x Rating.=C2 So: 15 Amps x .707 = 10.6 Amps // or 15 Amps x .637 = 9.5 Amps. Not so. An ampere is equal to flow of 1 Coulomb per second of electrons past a point in the conductor. The electrons don't know if they're AC, DC or some combination of the two. 1 amp flowing with a force of 1 volt for 1 second represents 1 Joule of energy . . . and again, this packet of energy knows not from which system it was generated. This particular problem with the Carling switches has a history. Graybeards on the List will recall a builder's repeated loss of the switch that controlled his strobes. Something relaively new in the Carling switches saga given that this same style of switch had been in service on single engine Cessnas since the middle 60's. If you consider the physics for conducting Coulombs of electrons to the strobes, we can count 10 metallic joints in the switch's power path. NONE of those joints can have a resistance of ZERO . . . it's ideally small but cannot be zero. Four of those joints (1, 2, 9, 10_ are directly acted upon by the installer. Two more (3, 8) can be influenced by the installer's action when pressing the fast-on terminals into place. Those same two joints can be adversely affected by operational vibrations of wire bundles too tightly installed to the back of switches (short or no service loops in wires). http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Fa All of said joints can be adversely influenced by environmental effects and/or manufacturing variations. Suffice it to say, any switch that is noticeably warm after some time in the ON condition is probably suffering a rise in resistance in on or more of the 10 joints illustrated. A change in strobe system design architecture precipitated the exchange we had about 10 years ago. You can go to the AeroElectric List search feature on http://www.matronics.com/forums/search.php and search on Carling+failure+strobe+rivet This was about the time when strobe systems were migrating from the legacy Royer oscillator, high voltage power supplies to the high efficiency, high frequency constant-power supplies. Unlike older strobes that drew LESS than normal running current at low bus voltage, these systems were designed to maintain strobe output at a wide range of bus voltages, hence current draw went UP as bus voltage goes down. Operating strobes on the ground at idle and taxi rpms placed extra stress on the switch. Here'a a narrative that goes to a particular kind of failure in the Carling swtiches: https://goo.gl/oiZjeG I've done teardowns on about a half dozen switch failures with locus of the failure was seldom repeated. Here'a a general article on switch rating as it relates to our use of them in airplanes. https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ Yes, the Carling products are inexpensive but as Cessna and others have demonstrated for decades, this does NOT make them unsuited to our tasks. The laws of physics that govern their failures are inviolate . . . meaning that there are deducible reasons for every failure or rash of failures. Bob . . .


    Message 9


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    Time: 08:45:40 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: Warm Toggle Switch
    At 10:03 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: >I believe this is my first attempt at actually >giving advice on this list but here goes. I had >the same problem with the strobe switch in my >RV9 except the switch was not warm but hot. I >removed the switch and soldered the rivets. >Replaced the switch and the heat was gone and >has been for over 700 hours. I also removed the >rest of the toggle switches and gave them the >same treatment. I check the switches >periodically and they are always ambient >temperature. I=99m sure I read about soldering >the rivets on this list years ago so this is not my idea.=C2 > >Paul Good move . . . but not necessarily useful for all switches. Barons and Bonanzas suffered a rash of switch/breaker failures wherein a flexible braid of fine wires intended to carry controlled current around the pivot point to the front frame of the switch. This forced current to flow through the spring. The 30A Prop Anti-Ice breaker switch was observed to emit streams of smoke past the toggle as the spring turned into a heater. Emacs! This single case prompted a kerfuffle suggesting that ALL the switches be replaced when in fact, the prop deice was the only high current situation that would smoke the spring. Similarly, the Carling switches as-received are just fine for the purposes to which we might use them while keeping an eye on the switch controlling high energy strobes. It would probably be good practice not to run such strobes on the ground. Bob . . .


    Message 10


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    Time: 10:29:56 AM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: >Hi, > >I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to >wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on >them, but I can't find this diagram any >longer.=C2 The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors. > >Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about >the best way to wire the pmags so that=C2 you can also do maintenance on them? > >Thanks, >Mickey Mickey, Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more digging found that the drawing you have has a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill a gap in the list of z-figures. This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . . I can't imagine the conversation that drove its evolution through that many steps. But then, the rev-level label may have suffered the same editing errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13 years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg your indulgence. I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . . I think the only time you would want to do such a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll be willing to bet that I had some discussion with EmagAir about this and they stood back from it about the length of a football field. Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot' engine, nobody in this litigious world would recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own situation and skill set for getting the engine going. Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer much cover in a lawsuit. Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to go anywhere unless you got up close and personal with that whirrly thing on the front. Bob . . .


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:45:34 PM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    Thanks Bob. The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timing - if the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the timing. From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is needed, and is very clear and simple. I don't see a case where it would decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping. Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the timing. (http://www.emagair.com/downloads/) Regards, Mickey 1. Set Ignition Timing: Install the ignition(s) in the accessory case at any attitude that is convenient. You won=99t need to move them again, so secure them fo r operation. Temporarily remove the MAP sensor tube connection where it attaches to your aircraft system (not at the ignition itself). 1. Rotate your prop to the engine =9CTC=9D (or 1-6 degrees afte r) timing target (see all notes for this section). By approaching this mark with the prop moving in the direction of normal engine rotation you can minimize play in the gears. Note 1: Be wary of old magneto timing habits. Magnetos are timed using the 25 degree (or other) BTDC marks. Here, you will time at TDC or sligh tly after (never before). Note 2: It does not matter whether the engine is on the compression or exhaust stroke for a particular cylinder. Note 3: On some engines, =9CTC=9D is stamped on the PROP SID E of the ring gear, which aligns with a reference alignment hole on the starter. On others, the ring gear mark is on the ENGINE SIDE and lines up with the top side engine case seam. Consult you engine manual on how to locate TD C. See also: Lycoming Service Instructions 1437 ( http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/S I1437.pdf). Note 4: Startup Firing - =EF=82=B7 Units with firmware V40 (and after) have an automatic 4 degree starting lag to make certain (start) firing occurs well after TDC. - =EF=82=B7 Prior to firmware V40, start firing occurs where the ignit ion is timed. These units can implement a starting lag by CLOCKING the engine 2-3 degrees AFTER TDC. This will shift startup firing, and will also shift the operating range (in the less aggressive direction). Background: Low-mass props can decelerate rapidly as the starter motor pulls thru each compression stroke (TDC being the top of each compression stroke). If the prop slows enough, it=99s effective ly become stationary when it reaches TDC. In these conditions, combustion can send the prop backwards. Delaying startup firing is a simple hedge against this risk. 2. Setup Mode is entered by turning 12 volt bus power ON, WHILE the p-lead switch is OFF (grounded). If the LED is not lit up, you are not in Setup Mode. 3. Blow into the MAP sensor tube (see note below for duration and pressure). After the first blow, the ignition will acknowledge by switching the LED to from solid RED to blinking RED. 4. Blow into the MAP sensor tube a second time, and the LED will blink GREEN indicating the ignition timing has been set. 5. Power cycle (12volt power OFF then ON) to enable operation and, provided the prop has not moved, verify you still see a green LED. Reconnect the MAP sensor tube to its operating location. Note 1: If you are setting timing on two ignitions and the MAP sensor tubes are teed together, you can set timing on both ignitions in exactly the same way in exactly the same amount of time. Note 2: The =9Cblow=9D pressure required to activate Quick-Set is set rather high (minimum 0.5 psi) to minimize the chance that it could be triggered inadvertently. This 0.5 psi is similar to the pressure needed to sound a trumpet. As an additional precaution, we require pressurization for a duration of one second before the instruction is accepted. Mickey Coggins On 3 April 2018 at 19:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: > > Hi, > > I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can > do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.=C3=82 The > Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors. > > Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the > pmags so that=C3=82 you can also do maintenance on them? > > Thanks, > Mickey > > > Mickey, > > Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more > digging found that the drawing you have has > a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill > a gap in the list of z-figures. > > This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . . > I can't imagine the conversation that drove its > evolution through that many steps. But then, the > rev-level label may have suffered the same editing > errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13 > years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg > your indulgence. > > I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . . > I think the only time you would want to do such > a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll > be willing to bet that I had some discussion > with EmagAir about this and they stood back from > it about the length of a football field. > > Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot' > engine, nobody in this litigious world would > recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely > up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own > situation and skill set for getting the engine > going. > > Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in > the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding > behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer > much cover in a lawsuit. > > Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to > go anywhere unless you got up close and personal > with that whirrly thing on the front. > > > Bob . . . >


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:18:45 PM PST US
    From: Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com>
    Subject: Re: insulation support for crimps
    It=99s not something you=99ve specifically recommended: google f or =9Ckrimptite=9D and you=99ll see some examples of to wh at I was referring. On Apr 3, 2018, at 08:46, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric .com> wrote: At 05:11 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote: > > Bob et al. > > I understand from reading lots of sources that small wires crimped into, f or example, ring terminals, should have insulation support, like that provid ed by PIDG brand insulated crimps. > > If I use an uninsulated crimp like a Molex =9Ckrimptite=9D and I oversleeve with heat shrink tubing around the barrel of the crimp and ext ending over a half inch of the wire insulation, does that make up adequately for the lack of other insulation support? Which Molex product are you citing? All the Molex product I have here features both wire and insulation grip features. I'm unaware of any product that doesn't offer insulation grip. Having said that, yes . . . heat shrink . . . particularly double-wall adhesive heat shrink is suited for the addition of insulation support on terminations that don't already have it. For example, when bringing a wire onto an etched circuit board I will either bring the insulation down tight on the surface and spot the junction with E6000 (or similar) or better yet, crimp a d-sub mail onto the wire, support the insulation with DWA shrink the solder the pin to the board. This last technique has been used on countless terminations in my experience for 40 years. Assemblies so treated have passed the most severe DO160 shake-n-bake tests with no problems. Bob . . .


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:27:52 PM PST US
    From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: >Thanks Bob.=C2 The maintenance mode is for >setting the ignition timing - if the device has >power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in >a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure >tube connected to the pmag will set the >timing.=C2 From what I see, the diagram achieves >exactly what is needed, and is very clear and >simple.=C2 I don't see a case where it would >decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping.=C2 =C2 > >Here is an extract from the emagair manual that >describes how to set the >timing.=C2 >(<http://www.emagair.com/downloads/>http://www.emagair.com/downloads/) Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . . must be getting old. Thanks for the refresher. I'll file the EmagAir data next to the Z34 figure. Looks like it might be a good addition to the 13th Edition after all. The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine. Is this configuration useful to that task as well? Bob . . .


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:07:36 PM PST US
    From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
    Subject: Re: two different Z-33 diagrams
    Hi Bob, for hand propping, my understanding is that the device would need at least a bit of power. There is some discussion on some forums about just using a tiny 9v battery. I don't see anything in your diagram that would help or hinder hand propping - there would still need to be some external power source. The manual says this: Emergency Prop Starting =93 Both the E-models and P-models need outsi de electrical power to start. You cannot prop-start the engine with either type ignition if the battery is missing, or totally dead. However, a low battery that barely =9Cbumps=9D the starter motor, or can only =9Cclick=9D the solenoid will likely have enough energy to power the ignition for prop starting. After startup, P-model ignitions can then power themselves. *Caut ion: Do not attempt a prop start unless you are trained and are comfortable with the procedure.* I think your drawing would be a useful addition to the 13th and further editions of the AEC. Regards, Mickey Mickey Coggins On 4 April 2018 at 00:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: > > Thanks Bob.=C3=82 The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timin g - if > the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode whe re > blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the > timing.=C3=82 From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is need ed, and > is very clear and simple.=C3=82 I don't see a case where it would decrea se > safety, or have any impact on hand propping.=C3=82 =C3=82 > > Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the > timing.=C3=82 ( http://www.emagair.com/downloads/) > > > Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . . > must be getting old. > > Thanks for the refresher. I'll file > the EmagAir data next to the Z34 > figure. Looks like it might be a good > addition to the 13th Edition after > all. > > The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine. > Is this configuration useful to that > task as well? > > > Bob . . . >




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