Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:29 AM - Re: Flap Switch (Pat Hatch)
2. 05:40 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 05:47 AM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 05:51 AM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 06:15 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
6. 06:51 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Charlie England)
7. 06:57 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (John)
8. 08:25 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 08:45 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 10:29 AM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 01:45 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
12. 03:18 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Alec Myers)
13. 03:27 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
14. 10:07 PM - Re: two different Z-33 diagrams (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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Yes . . .
You need a switch that with a restrained
handle such as the Honeywell 2TL1-5.
The Dash 5 is a 3 position that is stable
in two extremes and spring loaded out of the
third? Is this the action your seeking?
Shop around a bit . . . they come in all
$sizes$ . . .
[url=https://goo.gl/FQfTRF]https://goo.gl/FQfTRF[/url]
https://goo.gl/va48he
[u][/u]
[u][/u] Bob . . .
[/quote][/quote]
Thanks, Bob, that's exactly what I was looking for! :D
--------
RV-6
RV-7
Flying
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479002#479002
Message 2
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to
>wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on
>them, but I can't find this diagram any
>longer.=C2 The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery
Contactors.
>
>Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about
>the best way to wire the pmags so that=C2 you can also do maintenance on
them?
I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't
find anything different than the presently published
Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in
any specific manner to do maintenance.
Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such
a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for
support if it proves useful.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: insulation support for crimps |
At 05:11 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>
>Bob et al.
>
>I understand from reading lots of sources that
>small wires crimped into, for example, ring
>terminals, should have insulation support, like
>that provided by PIDG brand insulated crimps.
>
>If I use an uninsulated crimp like a Molex
>=9Ckrimptite=9D and I oversleeve with heat
>shrink tubing around the barrel of the crimp and
>extending over a half inch of the wire
>insulation, does that make up adequately for the
>lack of other insulation support?
Which Molex product are you citing? All the Molex
product I have here features both wire and insulation
grip features. I'm unaware of any product that doesn't
offer insulation grip.
Having said that, yes . . . heat shrink . . . particularly
double-wall adhesive heat shrink is suited for the addition
of insulation support on terminations that don't already
have it. For example, when bringing a wire onto an etched
circuit board I will either bring the insulation down tight
on the surface and spot the junction with E6000 (or similar)
or better yet, crimp a d-sub mail onto the wire, support the
insulation with DWA shrink the solder the pin to the board.
This last technique has been used on countless terminations
in my experience for 40 years. Assemblies so treated have
passed the most severe DO160 shake-n-bake tests with no problems.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: insulation support for crimps |
At 05:46 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>Alec:
>
>The insulated lug below a #10 AWG is a FAA requirement.
Is this a requirement or a recommended practice.
AC43-13, like DO160 are citations of acceptable
shop practices but they are not requirements.
Citing these documents can relive you of the
task to justify your alternative practice
but they do not prohibit alteratives.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
Thanks Bob - I've sent the drawing I have offline - I didn't want it to get
out into the wild until you had a look as it might cause some confusion.
Regards, Mickey
Mickey Coggins
On 3 April 2018 at 14:40, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can
> do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.=C3=82
The
> Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.
>
> Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the
> pmags so that=C3=82 you can also do maintenance on them?
>
>
> I dug through the Appendix Z figures archives and don't
> find anything different than the presently published
> Z33. I'm mystified as to the need for wiring p-mags in
> any specific manner to do maintenance.
>
> Can you enlighten me as to the rationale for such
> a feature? I can call the guys at EmagAir for
> support if it proves useful.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Warm Toggle Switch |
Care to show us how you arrive at that last statement, using Ohm's Law?
On 4/2/2018 8:39 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
John:
Yes, the switch may be the problem. Your switch S700-1-3 is a 15 Amp
rating on AC. Which is NOT 15 Amps on DC. A good rule of thumb is the
switch should be able to handle DOUBLE the DC amperage that the circuit
draws. There are a couple of ways of determining the DC rating of an AC
Switch. You can say take .707 x Rating or .637 x Rating. So: 15 Amps x
.707 = 10.6 Amps // or 15 Amps x .637 = 9.5 Amps.
They are average type switches, they are not hermetically sealed, the
contacts are not silver plated. There could very easily be corrosion on
the contacts and that raises the resistance of the circuit. The higher
resistance can very easily cause HEAT at that contact point AND you are
FEELING IT!
Find a better quality switch. I like taking a DPST (Double Pole Single
Throw) Switch and wiring BOTH Sides together so it functions as a SPST
(Single Throw Single Throw) Switch. So, in your case you would have a
total AC Rating of 30 Amps which would be able to handle either 19 Amps or
21 Amps DC. AND the physical properties of the switch would be much more
robust that that S700-1-3 switch.
BUT! DON'T STOP THERE! Other things in the circuit can be causing higher
current draw.
1 - Sales brochures generally BOAST better ratings that that actually
exist. The Strobe may very well be drawing higher than advertised.
2 - Check the connections of the switch. If they are SCREW Terminals use
star lock washers. If they are FAST-ON terminals, how easy do they slide
on/off? Squeeze them with needle nose pliers so they are Very Snug.
3 - How are other connections in the circuit?
4 - You mentioned FUSE, check the fuse holder for any signs of corrosion.
Clean it with Scotch-Brite and Contact Cleaner.
Resistance is resistance no matter where it is and that causes an increase
in current draw.
Barry
>
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Warm Toggle Switch |
Ken, Barry and Paul
Thanks for your responses and excellent advice.
Much appreciated.
John C
Rv6A
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Warm Toggle Switch |
At 08:39 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>John:
>
>Yes, the switch may be the problem.=C2 Your
>switch S700-1-3=C2 is a 15 Amp rating on
>AC.=C2 Which is NOT 15 Amps on DC.=C2 A good rule
>of thumb is the switch should be able to handle
>DOUBLE the DC amperage that the circuit
>draws.=C2 There are a couple of ways of
>determining=C2 the DC rating of an AC
>Switch.=C2 You can say take .707 x Rating or .637
>x Rating.=C2 So: 15 Amps x .707 = 10.6 Amps // or 15 Amps x .637 = 9.5
Amps.
Not so.
An ampere is equal to flow of 1 Coulomb per second of electrons
past a point in the conductor. The electrons don't know if they're
AC, DC or some combination of the two. 1 amp flowing with a force
of 1 volt for 1 second represents 1 Joule of energy . . . and again,
this packet of energy knows not from which system it was generated.
This particular problem with the Carling switches has a history.
Graybeards on the List will recall a builder's repeated loss
of the switch that controlled his strobes. Something relaively
new in the Carling switches saga given that this same style of
switch had been in service on single engine Cessnas since the
middle 60's.
If you consider the physics for conducting Coulombs of electrons
to the strobes, we can count 10 metallic joints in the
switch's power path. NONE of those joints can have a resistance
of ZERO . . . it's ideally small but cannot be zero.
Four of those joints (1, 2, 9, 10_ are directly acted upon by the
installer. Two more (3, 8) can be influenced by the installer's
action when pressing the fast-on terminals into place. Those
same two joints can be adversely affected by operational
vibrations of wire bundles too tightly installed to the
back of switches (short or no service loops in wires).
http://aeroelectric.com/Pictures/Switches/Toggle_Switch_with_Fa
All of said joints can be adversely influenced by
environmental effects and/or manufacturing variations.
Suffice it to say, any switch that is noticeably
warm after some time in the ON condition is probably
suffering a rise in resistance in on or more of the
10 joints illustrated.
A change in strobe system design architecture precipitated
the exchange we had about 10 years ago. You can go to
the AeroElectric List search feature on
http://www.matronics.com/forums/search.php
and search on Carling+failure+strobe+rivet
This was about the time when strobe systems were
migrating from the legacy Royer oscillator, high
voltage power supplies to the high efficiency,
high frequency constant-power supplies. Unlike
older strobes that drew LESS than normal running
current at low bus voltage, these systems were
designed to maintain strobe output at a wide range
of bus voltages, hence current draw went UP as
bus voltage goes down.
Operating strobes on the ground at idle and taxi
rpms placed extra stress on the switch.
Here'a a narrative that goes to a particular
kind of failure in the Carling swtiches:
https://goo.gl/oiZjeG
I've done teardowns on about a half dozen
switch failures with locus of the failure
was seldom repeated.
Here'a a general article on switch rating
as it relates to our use of them in airplanes.
https://goo.gl/CPtPYJ
Yes, the Carling products are inexpensive
but as Cessna and others have demonstrated for
decades, this does NOT make them unsuited to
our tasks. The laws of physics that govern
their failures are inviolate . . . meaning that
there are deducible reasons for every failure
or rash of failures.
Bob . . .
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Warm Toggle Switch |
At 10:03 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>I believe this is my first attempt at actually
>giving advice on this list but here goes. I had
>the same problem with the strobe switch in my
>RV9 except the switch was not warm but hot. I
>removed the switch and soldered the rivets.
>Replaced the switch and the heat was gone and
>has been for over 700 hours. I also removed the
>rest of the toggle switches and gave them the
>same treatment. I check the switches
>periodically and they are always ambient
>temperature. I=99m sure I read about soldering
>the rivets on this list years ago so this is not my idea.=C2
>
>Paul
Good move . . . but not necessarily useful for
all switches. Barons and Bonanzas suffered a rash
of switch/breaker failures wherein a flexible braid
of fine wires intended to carry controlled
current around the pivot point to the front frame
of the switch.
This forced current to flow through the
spring. The 30A Prop Anti-Ice breaker
switch was observed to emit streams of
smoke past the toggle as the spring turned
into a heater.
Emacs!
This single case prompted a kerfuffle suggesting
that ALL the switches be replaced when in fact, the
prop deice was the only high current situation that
would smoke the spring.
Similarly, the Carling switches as-received are
just fine for the purposes to which we might use
them while keeping an eye on the switch controlling
high energy strobes. It would probably be good
practice not to run such strobes on the ground.
Bob . . .
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to
>wire pmags so that you can do maintenance on
>them, but I can't find this diagram any
>longer.=C2 The Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery
Contactors.
>
>Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about
>the best way to wire the pmags so that=C2 you can also do maintenance on
them?
>
>Thanks,
>Mickey
Mickey,
Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more
digging found that the drawing you have has
a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill
a gap in the list of z-figures.
This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . .
I can't imagine the conversation that drove its
evolution through that many steps. But then, the
rev-level label may have suffered the same editing
errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13
years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg
your indulgence.
I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . .
I think the only time you would want to do such
a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll
be willing to bet that I had some discussion
with EmagAir about this and they stood back from
it about the length of a football field.
Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot'
engine, nobody in this litigious world would
recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely
up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own
situation and skill set for getting the engine
going.
Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in
the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding
behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer
much cover in a lawsuit.
Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to
go anywhere unless you got up close and personal
with that whirrly thing on the front.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
Thanks Bob. The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timing - if
the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode where
blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the
timing. From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is needed, and
is very clear and simple. I don't see a case where it would decrease
safety, or have any impact on hand propping.
Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the
timing. (http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)
Regards,
Mickey
1.
Set Ignition Timing:
Install the ignition(s) in the accessory case at any attitude that is
convenient. You won=99t need to move them again, so secure them fo
r
operation. Temporarily remove the MAP sensor tube connection where it
attaches to your aircraft system (not at the ignition itself).
1.
Rotate your prop to the engine =9CTC=9D (or 1-6 degrees afte
r) timing target
(see all notes for this section). By approaching this mark with the prop
moving in the direction of normal engine rotation you can minimize play
in
the gears.
Note 1: Be wary of old magneto timing habits. Magnetos are timed using
the 25 degree (or other) BTDC marks. Here, you will time at TDC or sligh
tly
after (never before).
Note 2: It does not matter whether the engine is on the compression or
exhaust stroke for a particular cylinder.
Note 3: On some engines, =9CTC=9D is stamped on the PROP SID
E of the ring
gear, which aligns with a reference alignment hole on the starter. On
others, the ring gear mark is on the ENGINE SIDE and lines up with the
top side engine case seam. Consult you engine manual on how to locate TD
C.
See also: Lycoming Service Instructions 1437 (
http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/S
I1437.pdf).
Note 4: Startup Firing
-
=EF=82=B7 Units with firmware V40 (and after) have an automatic 4
degree starting
lag to make certain (start) firing occurs well after TDC.
-
=EF=82=B7 Prior to firmware V40, start firing occurs where the ignit
ion is
timed.
These units can implement a starting lag by CLOCKING the engine 2-3
degrees AFTER TDC. This will shift startup firing, and will also
shift the
operating range (in the less aggressive direction).
Background: Low-mass props can decelerate rapidly as the starter
motor pulls thru each compression stroke (TDC being the top of each
compression stroke). If the prop slows enough, it=99s effective
ly
become stationary when it reaches TDC. In these conditions,
combustion can send the prop backwards. Delaying startup firing
is a simple
hedge against this risk.
2.
Setup Mode is entered by turning 12 volt bus power ON, WHILE the p-lead
switch is OFF (grounded). If the LED is not lit up, you are not in Setup
Mode.
3.
Blow into the MAP sensor tube (see note below for duration and
pressure). After the first blow, the ignition will acknowledge by
switching the LED to from solid RED to blinking RED.
4.
Blow into the MAP sensor tube a second time, and the LED will blink
GREEN indicating the ignition timing has been set.
5.
Power cycle (12volt power OFF then ON) to enable operation and, provided
the prop has not moved, verify you still see a green LED. Reconnect the
MAP
sensor tube to its operating location.
Note 1: If you are setting timing on two ignitions and the MAP sensor tubes
are teed together, you can set timing on both ignitions in exactly the same
way in exactly the same amount of time.
Note 2: The =9Cblow=9D pressure required to activate Quick-Set
is set rather
high (minimum 0.5 psi) to minimize the chance that it could be triggered
inadvertently. This 0.5 psi is similar to the pressure needed to sound a
trumpet. As an additional precaution, we require pressurization for a
duration of one second before the instruction is accepted.
Mickey Coggins
On 3 April 2018 at 19:29, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 02:34 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a printout of a Z-33 that shows how to wire pmags so that you can
> do maintenance on them, but I can't find this diagram any longer.=C3=82
The
> Z-33 I find is about Dual Power Path for Battery Contactors.
>
> Is there an updated Z diagram that talks about the best way to wire the
> pmags so that=C3=82 you can also do maintenance on them?
>
> Thanks,
> Mickey
>
>
> Mickey,
>
> Thanks for your persistence . . . a little more
> digging found that the drawing you have has
> a typo and was intended to become Z-34 and fill
> a gap in the list of z-figures.
>
> This drawing says "revision L" which is mystifying . . .
> I can't imagine the conversation that drove its
> evolution through that many steps. But then, the
> rev-level label may have suffered the same editing
> errors as the Z-figures number . . . it's dated 13
> years ago so this gray haired ol' fart will beg
> your indulgence.
>
> I'm wondering about the 'maintenance' thingy . . .
> I think the only time you would want to do such
> a thing is for hand-propping the airplane. I'll
> be willing to bet that I had some discussion
> with EmagAir about this and they stood back from
> it about the length of a football field.
>
> Given the risk for putting one's hands on a 'hot'
> engine, nobody in this litigious world would
> recommend it. Having said that, it's entirely
> up to the owner/operator to evaluate their own
> situation and skill set for getting the engine
> going.
>
> Not sure I'm going to publish that figure in
> the book . . . for the same reasons. Hiding
> behind that 'maintenance' term would not offer
> much cover in a lawsuit.
>
> Got lots of hours in a J3 that wasn't going to
> go anywhere unless you got up close and personal
> with that whirrly thing on the front.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: insulation support for crimps |
It=99s not something you=99ve specifically recommended: google f
or =9Ckrimptite=9D and you=99ll see some examples of to wh
at I was referring.
On Apr 3, 2018, at 08:46, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric
.com> wrote:
At 05:11 PM 4/2/2018, you wrote:
>
> Bob et al.
>
> I understand from reading lots of sources that small wires crimped into, f
or example, ring terminals, should have insulation support, like that provid
ed by PIDG brand insulated crimps.
>
> If I use an uninsulated crimp like a Molex =9Ckrimptite=9D and
I oversleeve with heat shrink tubing around the barrel of the crimp and ext
ending over a half inch of the wire insulation, does that make up adequately
for the lack of other insulation support?
Which Molex product are you citing? All the Molex
product I have here features both wire and insulation
grip features. I'm unaware of any product that doesn't
offer insulation grip.
Having said that, yes . . . heat shrink . . . particularly
double-wall adhesive heat shrink is suited for the addition
of insulation support on terminations that don't already
have it. For example, when bringing a wire onto an etched
circuit board I will either bring the insulation down tight
on the surface and spot the junction with E6000 (or similar)
or better yet, crimp a d-sub mail onto the wire, support the
insulation with DWA shrink the solder the pin to the board.
This last technique has been used on countless terminations
in my experience for 40 years. Assemblies so treated have
passed the most severe DO160 shake-n-bake tests with no problems.
Bob . . .
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob.=C2 The maintenance mode is for
>setting the ignition timing - if the device has
>power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in
>a mode where blowing on the manifold pressure
>tube connected to the pmag will set the
>timing.=C2 From what I see, the diagram achieves
>exactly what is needed, and is very clear and
>simple.=C2 I don't see a case where it would
>decrease safety, or have any impact on hand propping.=C2 =C2
>
>Here is an extract from the emagair manual that
>describes how to set the
>timing.=C2
>(<http://www.emagair.com/downloads/>http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)
Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . .
must be getting old.
Thanks for the refresher. I'll file
the EmagAir data next to the Z34
figure. Looks like it might be a good
addition to the 13th Edition after
all.
The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine.
Is this configuration useful to that
task as well?
Bob . . .
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: two different Z-33 diagrams |
Hi Bob, for hand propping, my understanding is that the device would need
at least a bit of power. There is some discussion on some forums about
just using a tiny 9v battery. I don't see anything in your diagram that
would help or hinder hand propping - there would still need to be some
external power source. The manual says this:
Emergency Prop Starting =93 Both the E-models and P-models need outsi
de
electrical power to start. You cannot prop-start the engine with either
type ignition if the battery is missing, or totally dead. However, a low
battery that barely =9Cbumps=9D the starter motor, or can only
=9Cclick=9D the
solenoid will likely have enough energy to power the ignition for prop
starting. After startup, P-model ignitions can then power themselves. *Caut
ion:
Do not attempt a prop start unless you are trained and are comfortable with
the procedure.*
I think your drawing would be a useful addition to the 13th and further
editions of the AEC.
Regards, Mickey
Mickey Coggins
On 4 April 2018 at 00:27, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 03:44 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote:
>
> Thanks Bob.=C3=82 The maintenance mode is for setting the ignition timin
g - if
> the device has power, but the p-lead is grounded, then it's in a mode whe
re
> blowing on the manifold pressure tube connected to the pmag will set the
> timing.=C3=82 From what I see, the diagram achieves exactly what is need
ed, and
> is very clear and simple.=C3=82 I don't see a case where it would decrea
se
> safety, or have any impact on hand propping.=C3=82 =C3=82
>
> Here is an extract from the emagair manual that describes how to set the
> timing.=C3=82 ( http://www.emagair.com/downloads/)
>
>
> Ding Ding . . . I recall that now . . .
> must be getting old.
>
> Thanks for the refresher. I'll file
> the EmagAir data next to the Z34
> figure. Looks like it might be a good
> addition to the 13th Edition after
> all.
>
> The title block speaks to hand-propping the engine.
> Is this configuration useful to that
> task as well?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
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