---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/05/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:22 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Charles Brame) 2. 08:17 AM - Re: Starter SURGES () 3. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Warm Toggle Switch (FLYaDIVE) 4. 10:54 AM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (Eric Page) 5. 01:15 PM - Re: Warm Toggle Switch (user9253) 6. 02:21 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Alec Myers) 7. 02:43 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Charlie England) 8. 02:51 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (Alec Myers) 9. 09:03 PM - Re: insulation support for crimps (FLYaDIVE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:41 AM PST US From: Charles Brame Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warm Toggle Switch Time: 08:45:12 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Warm Toggle Switch At 09:21 AM 4/4/2018, you wrote: > I went through several warm, hot, and/or shorted > switches that operated my strobes. Tried several > brands of switches all with the same results. > Finally trouble shot the whole system and found > a bad connector crimp on the positive wire that > connected at the strobe power pack. Repaired > same, and haven=99t had a switch problem since. What were your observations for condition of the materials at the failure . . . and do you recall whether the failure was related to materials, installation technique or perhaps both? You mentioned 'shorted' switch . . . were you the builder who was experiencing fuse popping when the strobes were turned OFF? Bob . . . =94=94=94=94=94=94=94=94 =94=94=94=94=94=94=94=94 =94=94- Bob, et., al., I did have a popped fuse or so, but I don=99t think they were related to the shorted switch. The shorted switch toggle itself was electrified when either on or off. On various switches, I found loose connectors, corroded and failed contacts, and in one case, the plastic switch case was partially melted from the heat. Failures were probably related to both materials and installation technique. I=99m not sure all the problems were related to the bad strobe pack connection, but fixing that seems to have solved the problems. Charlie RV-6A, N11CB San Antonio ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:01 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Starter SURGES Ah, Lucas, "The Prince of Darkness"... I had a '63 Austin Healy Sprite that was graced with his presence... Converted to 12v Negative ground "US standard" stuff when the engine was replaced... Cost some $$, but less than the ongoing Lucas part-of-the-week club membership - especially at "import prices"... Jim Parker -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starter SURGES From: Richard Girard Charlie, You're right, the starter was engaged and running but the minute the engine revved over starting rpm the engine was driving it, too. It's probably no surprise that the car had English electrics, a mix of Smith and Lucas. Me experience with it was too many ghost problems. The horn began to blow one night right as I was on my way out for a date. Disconnected the horn, went on the date and tried to get the horn working the next day. Reconnected it and nothing wrong. Never failed again. Then there was the night the passing lights started flashing on their own. Pulled the whole steering wheel off, went through it, couldn't find anything, put it back together, worked fine. Never failed again. As much as I loved the car I began to think of it as Mussolini's revenge. I didn't know about Lucas then..... Rick ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:44 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warm Toggle Switch Good Find Charlie; Sure sounds like your switch did one of two things or maybe even BOTH: 1 - WELDED the contacts closed and/or, 2 - Mechanically Failed. The mechanical failure could also have been due to the contacts being Welded and when you flip the switch, the weld being stronger than the pivot points of the switch... Ergo, the switch broke! Question: Is the switch WHITE in color? Except for the burnt areas of course? Poor contact(s) ANYWHERE in the circuit increase current draw. The weak point being the switch. ARKENSPARK - - ARKENFARK Hope my original post was helpful. Barry On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Charles Brame wrote: > Time: 08:45:12 AM PST US > From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Warm Toggle Switch > > At 09:21 AM 4/4/2018, you wrote: > > I went through several warm, hot, and/or shorted > switches that operated my strobes. Tried several > brands of switches all with the same results. > Finally trouble shot the whole system and found > a bad connector crimp on the positive wire that > connected at the strobe power pack. Repaired > same, and haven=99t had a switch problem since. > > > What were your observations for condition of > the materials at the failure . . . and do > you recall whether the failure was related > to materials, installation technique or perhaps > both? > > You mentioned 'shorted' switch . . . were you the > builder who was experiencing fuse popping when the > strobes were turned OFF? > > > Bob . . . > > =94=94=94=94=94=94=94=94 =94=94=94=94=94=94=94=94 =94=94- > > Bob, et., al., > > I did have a popped fuse or so, but I don=99t think they were relat ed to > the shorted switch. The shorted switch toggle itself was electrified when > either on or off. On various switches, I found loose connectors, corroded > and failed contacts, and in one case, the plastic switch case was partial ly > melted from the heat. Failures were probably related to both materials an d > installation technique. I=99m not sure all the problems were relate d to the > bad strobe pack connection, but fixing that seems to have solved the > problems. > > Charlie > RV-6A, N11CB > San Antonio > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:54:38 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warm Toggle Switch From: "Eric Page" BARRY CHECK 6 wrote: > Poor contact(s) ANYWHERE in the circuit increase current draw. Generally speaking, this is incorrect. A poor contact increases resistance. Increased resistance causes a decrease in current through a circuit. The exception is an appliance using an internal switching power supply, which functions as a constant power device, drawing whatever combination of voltage and current it can manage to maintain the required output. This is most likely to be seen powering modern avionics and high power LEDs (i.e. landing lights and strobe drivers). For everything else lighting circuits, motors, pumps, heaters and anything with linear voltage regulation the resistance/voltage/current relationship must follow Ohms Law. Eric P.S. On Internet forums, the use of ALL CAPS is considered equivalent to shouting. If youre posting via email rather than the web interface where bold, italics and underline are available, consider sparing use of *asterisks* before and after words you wish to emphasize. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479127#479127 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:17 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Warm Toggle Switch From: "user9253" I agree with Eric Page. Ohm's law rules. And generally speaking, a switch should not get warm. If it does, it is either overloaded, defective (high internal resistance), or its external connections have high resistance. It is OK to use AC rated switches in airplanes. B&C Aero sells AC rated switches. Hundreds of them have been installed in aircraft. Even if the DC rating is not marked on the side of the switch, every switch can carry a certain amount of DC current. Usually switch manufactures will test the DC ampacity of their products and the results are published on their datasheets. When a switch is already closed, it doesn't matter if the current is AC or DC. The issue is what happens when the switch first starts to open (or bounces open while closing). This is where voltage is important. When the contacts of the switch first separate just a hair, an arc jumps across the opening. Since AC current periodically drops to zero, the arc is quickly extinguished. But DC keeps arcing as the contacts spread apart. That arcing damages the contacts. In order to minimize arcing, the DC voltage needs to be reduced. Yes, switches need to be derated when conducting DC. But one way to look at it is that the voltage is derated, not the current. If two identical switches carry equal current, one in a DC circuit and one in an AC circuit, the life expectancy of the switches is equal provided that the DC circuit operates at a reduced voltage. If the AC voltage is 115, a DC voltage of about 28 will result in equal switch life. Most of home-built airplanes have 12 volt electrical systems. At that voltage, a switch can carry more than its 115 VAC current rating, provided that it is snap acting (opens quickly). -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=479128#479128 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:21:18 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: insulation support for crimps HI Bob >> M25036/T7928 What are these? A On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 05:18 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: > Its not something youve specifically recommended: google for krimptite and youll see some examples of to what I was referring. > Okay. Found this .pdf that speaks to the spectrum of Waldom termnials https://goo.gl/XKMA71 The generic Krimptite devices are the bottom of the features ladder. No insulation grip, rolled, non-welded wire grips. Next step up through the product line adds insulation grips to the non-welded terminals. Next are uninsulated but more robust terminals specifically designed for solid wire and wire grips intended for facilitating 'pulls' of wire thorough a conduit. Stationary applications. Next step up are the AviKrimps . . . the Molex offering to higher performance vehicular applications (like airplanes). These are equivalents to Tyco-Amp PIDG, Panduit PN series and others designed to the spirit and intent of M25036/T7928 The next steps up the ladder are pretty self explanatory. There's a 'high temperature' version of the un=insulated ring terminals designed for use in products like heaters, ovens, furnaces, etc where even companion wires are expected to stand off extra ordinary environmental temperatures . . . temperatures too high for legacy insulation grips but un-necessary since the terminals are not expected to perform under vibration. One does not save much money with the use of terminals outside the bubble of M25036/T7928 products. The uninsulated Krimptite devises would reside outside that bubble. Here's a quick run-down on acme of terminal technologies with about 80 years of history on aircraft and similar applications. <973ee6.jpg> Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:43:17 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: insulation support for crimps Google is (sometimes) our friend: https://www.google.com/search?q=M25036&oq=M25036&aqs=chrome..69i57&so urceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > HI Bob > > >> M25036/T7928 > > What are these? > > A > > On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 05:18 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: > > It=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s not something you=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve specifically recommended: google for > =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93krimptite=C3=A2=82=AC and you=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2ll see some examples of to what I was referring. > > > > Okay. Found this .pdf that speaks to the > spectrum of Waldom termnials > > https://goo.gl/XKMA71 > > The generic Krimptite devices are the bottom > of the features ladder. No insulation grip, > rolled, non-welded wire grips. > > Next step up through the product line adds > insulation grips to the non-welded > terminals. > > Next are uninsulated but more robust terminals > specifically designed for solid wire and wire > grips intended for facilitating 'pulls' of > wire thorough a conduit. Stationary applications. > > Next step up are the AviKrimps . . . the Molex > offering to higher performance vehicular > applications (like airplanes). These are equivalents > to Tyco-Amp PIDG, Panduit PN series and others > designed to the spirit and intent of M25036/T7928 > > The next steps up the ladder are pretty self explanatory. > > There's a 'high temperature' version of the un=insulated > ring terminals designed for use in products like heaters, > ovens, furnaces, etc where even companion wires are > expected to stand off extra ordinary environmental > temperatures . . . temperatures too high for legacy > insulation grips but un-necessary since the terminals > are not expected to perform under vibration. > > One does not save much money with the use of terminals > outside the bubble of M25036/T7928 products. The uninsulated > Krimptite devises would reside outside that bubble. > > Here's a quick run-down on acme of terminal technologies > with about 80 years of history on aircraft and similar > applications. > > <973ee6.jpg> > > Bob . . . > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:51:36 PM PST US From: Alec Myers Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: insulation support for crimps Ah theyre products? It sounded like they were a specification. On Apr 5, 2018, at 5:42 PM, Charlie England wrote: Google is (sometimes) our friend: https://www.google.com/search?q=M25036&oq=M25036&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Virus-free. www.avast.com On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Alec Myers wrote: HI Bob >> M25036/T7928 What are these? A On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: At 05:18 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: > Its not something youve specifically recommended: google for krimptite and youll see some examples of to what I was referring. > Okay. Found this .pdf that speaks to the spectrum of Waldom termnials https://goo.gl/XKMA71 The generic Krimptite devices are the bottom of the features ladder. No insulation grip, rolled, non-welded wire grips. Next step up through the product line adds insulation grips to the non-welded terminals. Next are uninsulated but more robust terminals specifically designed for solid wire and wire grips intended for facilitating 'pulls' of wire thorough a conduit. Stationary applications. Next step up are the AviKrimps . . . the Molex offering to higher performance vehicular applications (like airplanes). These are equivalents to Tyco-Amp PIDG, Panduit PN series and others designed to the spirit and intent of M25036/T7928 The next steps up the ladder are pretty self explanatory. There's a 'high temperature' version of the un=insulated ring terminals designed for use in products like heaters, ovens, furnaces, etc where even companion wires are expected to stand off extra ordinary environmental temperatures . . . temperatures too high for legacy insulation grips but un-necessary since the terminals are not expected to perform under vibration. One does not save much money with the use of terminals outside the bubble of M25036/T7928 products. The uninsulated Krimptite devises would reside outside that bubble. Here's a quick run-down on acme of terminal technologies with about 80 years of history on aircraft and similar applications. <973ee6.jpg> Bob . . . =================================== - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List =================================== FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com =================================== WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com =================================== b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution =================================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:23 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: insulation support for crimps Alec: Here is a link to what they are: https://www.google.com/search?q=M25036%2FT7928&rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS749US749 &oq=M25036%2FT7928&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i58.1941j0j8&sourceid=chrome&i e=UTF-8 Barry On Thu, Apr 5, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > HI Bob > > >> M25036/T7928 > > What are these? > > A > > On Apr 4, 2018, at 11:40 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < > nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > > At 05:18 PM 4/3/2018, you wrote: > > It=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2s not something you=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2ve specifically recommended: google for > =C3=A2=82=AC=C5=93krimptite=C3=A2=82=AC and you=C3=A2=82=AC =84=A2ll see some examples of to what I was referring. > > > > Okay. Found this .pdf that speaks to the > spectrum of Waldom termnials > > https://goo.gl/XKMA71 > > The generic Krimptite devices are the bottom > of the features ladder. No insulation grip, > rolled, non-welded wire grips. > > Next step up through the product line adds > insulation grips to the non-welded > terminals. > > Next are uninsulated but more robust terminals > specifically designed for solid wire and wire > grips intended for facilitating 'pulls' of > wire thorough a conduit. Stationary applications. > > Next step up are the AviKrimps . . . the Molex > offering to higher performance vehicular > applications (like airplanes). These are equivalents > to Tyco-Amp PIDG, Panduit PN series and others > designed to the spirit and intent of M25036/T7928 > > The next steps up the ladder are pretty self explanatory. > > There's a 'high temperature' version of the un=insulated > ring terminals designed for use in products like heaters, > ovens, furnaces, etc where even companion wires are > expected to stand off extra ordinary environmental > temperatures . . . temperatures too high for legacy > insulation grips but un-necessary since the terminals > are not expected to perform under vibration. > > One does not save much money with the use of terminals > outside the bubble of M25036/T7928 products. The uninsulated > Krimptite devises would reside outside that bubble. > > Here's a quick run-down on acme of terminal technologies > with about 80 years of history on aircraft and similar > applications. > > <973ee6.jpg> > > Bob . . . > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.