Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:43 AM - Cables (Bobby Paulk)
2. 06:37 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 06:38 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
4. 07:37 AM - PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Art Zemon)
5. 07:48 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Alec Myers)
6. 08:04 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Sebastien)
7. 08:27 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Bob Verwey)
8. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Ken Ryan)
9. 09:02 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Ron Springer)
10. 09:44 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
11. 09:53 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
12. 09:58 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Art Zemon)
13. 10:06 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Ron Springer)
14. 10:08 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
15. 10:09 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
16. 10:24 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Bernie Willis)
17. 10:29 AM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Ken Ryan)
18. 10:39 AM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Alec Myers)
19. 12:40 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
20. 12:44 PM - Re: Re: Z-13/8 Question (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
21. 01:34 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
22. 02:50 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Art Zemon)
23. 02:57 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Alec Myers)
24. 05:07 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (FLYaDIVE)
25. 06:06 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Charlie England)
26. 07:49 PM - Re: Cables (FLYaDIVE)
27. 08:45 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
28. 09:10 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
29. 09:16 PM - Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
30. 09:26 PM - Evolution of Wire (Correction) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
Message 1
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Barry
My rudder and elevator parts are all aluminum - no iron or steel. Also I do not
have auto pilot, strobes or any electronic whizzes mounted back there. I really
think someone ( not me ) stored the cables on the DC welding machine while
it was being used causing them to become highly magnetized.
As an aside I had to change most of our Air National Guard rudder cables on the
F-106 way back when. The old cables would become magnetized by the electronics
mounted near them. The full timers would save the dirty or labor intense jobs
for the part timers ( me ). We had to replace the cables with a finer stainless
alloy that would not become magnetized. I think the cables were about 3/8"
in diameter and the airplane was very long. Not an easy job.
Bobby
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
>For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and
>physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.
>
>No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.
This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
to a distribution point of one. You could
use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
30-40A at the fuse-link location.
The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
sticking out like a sore thumb.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
>For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and
>physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.
>
>No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.
This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
to a distribution point of one. You could
use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
30-40A at the fuse-link location.
The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
sticking out like a sore thumb.
Bob . . .
Message 4
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| Subject: | PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Folks,
I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use PVC
connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing light
wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the
aviation aisle of Home Depot.
Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors in
cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see
similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
parking lot)?
This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
-- Art Z.
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
My Cessna has lots of (as far as I know) original PVC insulated crimps.
> On Apr 28, 2018, at 10:36, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use PV
C connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing light w
ires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the aviation
aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors i
n cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see si
milar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to cold
but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a parking lo
t)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a
m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Good timing Art!
In this week's Hint for Homebuilders on the EAA newsletter, Dick Koehler
specifically mentions that while the nylon ones are better, the FAA says
both are acceptable.
http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpob
E9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeGVMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd2ps
YU9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRWNzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJaNWJ
3ZXEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUTV6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9
My aircraft is completely full of PVC connectors. I replace them with nylon
whenever I install or repair anything but 30 years later the PVC ones are
still problem free.
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use
> PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing
> light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in th
e
> aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors
> in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I se
e
> similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
> cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
> parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
My understanding is that the nylon is good in the engine compartment...the
PVC not so much
On Sat, 28 Apr 2018, 4:52 PM Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> My Cessna has lots of (as far as I know) original PVC insulated crimps.
>
> On Apr 28, 2018, at 10:36, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use
> PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing
> light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the
> aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors
> in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see
> similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
> cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
> parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a 'bus
feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use the 18/22
when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?
Ken
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 5:37 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:48 PM 4/27/2018, you wrote:
>
> For me, it would be availability (I don't keep 24 awg on hand) and
> physical strength of the link. 22 is pretty tough; 24 is marginal.
>
> No doubt it will work, though, if you want to use it.
>
>
> This bigger-but-not-fat wire is a 'bus feeder'
> to a distribution point of one. You could
> use 18/22 or even put a maxifuse of, say
> 30-40A at the fuse-link location.
>
> The fuse link seems a bit more 'elegant'
> tied into the wire bundles as opposed to
> sticking out like a sore thumb.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
My Home Depot actually has some Tyco Electronics nylon connectors, which I
have used on my plane. But, I am not sure if they have them for butt
connectors. They definitely have nylon disconnects.
Ron
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 10:42 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use
> PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing
> light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the
> aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors
> in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see
> similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
> cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
> parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
>
>
>On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Art Zemon
><<mailto:art@zemon.name>art@zemon.name> wrote:
>Folks,
>
>I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I
>am not supposed to use PVC connectors in an
>airplane but... I need connectors for the
>landing light wires, out in the wings. I can
>grab a few PVC butt connectors in the aviation aisle of Home Depot.=C2
>
>Help me figure this out, please. There are a
>whole lot of PVC connectors in cars. Lifetime on
>the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't
>I see similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably
>more since it will be exposed to cold but not as
>much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a parking lot)?
>
>This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
I would invite the readers to review this article I
posted a few years back that reviews the legacy
design goals and properties of materials for what
was then, a "mil spec'd" style of solderless wire
termination:
https://goo.gl/Fq95MU
Major features in the PIDG style connectors are
the terminal body (part that grips strands of wire),
insulator (provides some protection of the assembly
and helps identify the terminal by its color) and
a thin, metallic sleeve inside the insulator that
is formed down against the termnial barrel -AND-
insulation of the mated wire to provide insulation
support for resistance to breakage under vibration.
Here's the TE_Connectivity/AMP drawing for a PIDG
https://goo.gl/66QGz4
here's the same size terminal in Plasti-Grip
https://goo.gl/ZQaKRV
Without insulation support, the strands are at-risk
for vibration fatigue and separation. Here'a
an interesting work-around.
Emacs!
This Electronic Ignition, dual feed, diode isolated
distribution bus has multiple connections just waiting
to fail.
Emacs!
This view shows four, plasti-grip terminals
that were either (1) improperly applied or
(2) had already regained their as-manufactured
shape due to temperature cycling. This was
a 'hands off' inspection of the wreckage
so I was unable examine more closely.
Emacs!
Here's an example of lapses in craftsmanship for a breaker/bus-bar
assembly salvaged from a vintage Piper. We cannot know the time-in-
service for the variety of terminations seen here, but the PIDG
terminals demonstrate a decided advantage over the Plasti-Grip.
Emacs!
At 09:54 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
Good timing Art!
In this week's Hint for Homebuilders on the EAA
newsletter, Dick Koehler specifically mentions
that while the nylon ones are better, the FAA says both are acceptable.
<http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpob
E9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeGVMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd2psY
U9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRWNzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJaNWJ3Z
XEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUTV6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9>http://www.eaavideo.org/deta
il/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpobE9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeG
VMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd2psYU9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRW
NzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJaNWJ3ZXEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUT
V6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9
My aircraft is completely full of PVC connectors.
I replace them with nylon whenever I install or
repair anything but 30 years later the PVC ones are still problem free.
I was unable to get the video to load. I would really
like to see the document on FAA paper that suggests
interchangeability for the PIDG vs Plasti-Grip.
I would be surprised that any movement across technologies
recommended/mandated by the FAA would translate 'downward'.
Butt splices in runs of wire tied to wire bundles can
be spliced with much less expense (and physical bulk
to the bundle) with this technique:
https://goo.gl/FMCY9K
Having offered all the above, I will close with the
notion that a Plasti-Grip splice tied into a wire
bundle is at VERY LOW RISK for lost of conductors
due to vibration because of the support offered by
OTHER wires in the bundle. But be wary of non-PIDG
terminations for wires taken to studs and tabe.
Bob . . .
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 11:01 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>My Home Depot actually has some Tyco Electronics nylon connectors,
>which I have used on my plane. But, I am not sure if they have them
>for butt connectors. They definitely have nylon disconnects.
Nylon vs. PVC is not the magic difference . . . do the
any of their offerings feature metallic insulation grips
under the plastic?
Bob . . .
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Here too. Thanks for saying something. I'm all set now.
-- Art Z.
Sent from my phone. Please excuse brevity and bizarre typos.
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 11:17 AM Ron Springer <ron228rj@gmail.com> wrote:
> My Home Depot actually has some Tyco Electronics nylon connectors, which I
> have used on my plane. But, I am not sure if they have them for butt
> connectors. They definitely have nylon disconnects.
>
> Ron
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 10:42 AM Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use
>> PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing
>> light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the
>> aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>>
>> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors
>> in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see
>> similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
>> cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
>> parking lot)?
>>
>> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Nope!
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 12:57 PM Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:01 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>
> My Home Depot actually has some Tyco Electronics nylon connectors, which I
> have used on my plane. But, I am not sure if they have them for butt
> connectors. They definitely have nylon disconnects.
>
>
> Nylon vs. PVC is not the magic difference . . . do the
> any of their offerings feature metallic insulation grips
> under the plastic?
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
At 10:24 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a
>'bus feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use
>the 18/22 when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?
Forgive me. "FAT wires" refers to feeders that
carry major battery/starter currents and generally
require no fault protection. If one is using
a fuse block as opposed to breaker panel, then
we would like to have the crowbar ov protection
breaker crew accessible. This requires runing an
extension of the power distribution on something
less than a fat-wire to the single breaker on the
panel.
As a practical matter, one could make that total
run from the fuse block to regulator with 20AWG
wire and no other consideration bit it fusible
link or other CPD (circuit protective device).
The fusible link suggestion simply honored the
legacy rule-of-thumb allowing small, short wires
to attach unprotected to a fat-wire fed bus. The
notion was that a hard fault on such wires would
terminate quickly and not generate much smoke.
We're sifting the really fine sands of risk here.
99.99% of all circuit breakers/fuses installed
on all manner of vehicle goes to the salvage yard
never being called upon to do its job to protect
vehicle and occupants from smoke/fire.
If we were boarding your airplane for a $100 hamburger
trip and you confessed to me that the feeder to the
crowbar ov breaker was 'unprotected' . . . my response
is most likely to be, "Where are we going? Ponca City
or Hutch?"
Bob . . .
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 12:04 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>Nope!
Well then . . . there you go . . .
Bob . . .
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
This electrical connection subject is very interesting to me because
over the years I=99ve seen several failures on my work as well as
that of others. My son got me onto crimp connectors with heat shrink
insulation. I=99ve been using them for about 5 years now without
any failures on all kinds of installations, cars, boats and aircraft.
The insulation once shrunk provides support for the wire and besides
insulation seals against moisture getting into the crimp. They=99re
available at Polar Wire in Anchorage, AK and probably many other
places.
Bernie
> On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good timing Art!
>
> In this week's Hint for Homebuilders on the EAA newsletter, Dick
Koehler specifically mentions that while the nylon ones are better, the
FAA says both are acceptable.
>
>
http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpo
bE9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeGVMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd2
psYU9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRWNzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJa
NWJ3ZXEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUTV6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9
<http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWp
obE9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeGVMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd
2psYU9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRWNzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJ
aNWJ3ZXEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUTV6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9>
>
> My aircraft is completely full of PVC connectors. I replace them with
nylon whenever I install or repair anything but 30 years later the PVC
ones are still problem free.
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name
<mailto:art@zemon.name>> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to
use PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the
landing light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt
connectors in the aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC
connectors in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more.
Shouldn't I see similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it
will be exposed to cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking
in the sun in a parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <https://cheerfulcurmudgeon.com/>
>
> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
Thanks Bob. That clears some things up for me. You have not commented on
using 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink. I'm sure at some point the mechanical
properties of the wire become an issue. Is 24AWG too small to be messing
with for a fuselink?
Ken
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 9:07 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 10:24 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>
> Bob, I don't follow your language "this bigger but not fat wire is a 'bus
> feeder' to a distribution point of one." Specifically, why use the 18/22
> when the rest of the run is 20. Why not just use 20/24?
>
>
> Forgive me. "FAT wires" refers to feeders that
> carry major battery/starter currents and generally
> require no fault protection. If one is using
> a fuse block as opposed to breaker panel, then
> we would like to have the crowbar ov protection
> breaker crew accessible. This requires runing an
> extension of the power distribution on something
> less than a fat-wire to the single breaker on the
> panel.
>
> As a practical matter, one could make that total
> run from the fuse block to regulator with 20AWG
> wire and no other consideration bit it fusible
> link or other CPD (circuit protective device).
>
> The fusible link suggestion simply honored the
> legacy rule-of-thumb allowing small, short wires
> to attach unprotected to a fat-wire fed bus. The
> notion was that a hard fault on such wires would
> terminate quickly and not generate much smoke.
>
> We're sifting the really fine sands of risk here.
> 99.99% of all circuit breakers/fuses installed
> on all manner of vehicle goes to the salvage yard
> never being called upon to do its job to protect
> vehicle and occupants from smoke/fire.
>
> If we were boarding your airplane for a $100 hamburger
> trip and you confessed to me that the feeder to the
> crowbar ov breaker was 'unprotected' . . . my response
> is most likely to be, "Where are we going? Ponca City
> or Hutch?"
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Bob,
That second picture looks like the crimps were improperly applied, with no i
nsulation crimp at all. Even the most highbrow PIDG terminal won=99t h
elp if you don=99t put it on properly.
On Apr 28, 2018, at 13:22, Bernie Willis <arcticarrow@gmail.com> wrote:
This electrical connection subject is very interesting to me because over th
e years I=99ve seen several failures on my work as well as that of oth
ers. My son got me onto crimp connectors with heat shrink insulation. I
=99ve been using them for about 5 years now without any failures on all k
inds of installations, cars, boats and aircraft. The insulation once shrunk p
rovides support for the wire and besides insulation seals against moisture g
etting into the crimp. They=99re available at Polar Wire in Anchorage
, AK and probably many other places.
Bernie
> On Apr 28, 2018, at 6:54 AM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Good timing Art!
>
> In this week's Hint for Homebuilders on the EAA newsletter, Dick Koehler s
pecifically mentions that while the nylon ones are better, the FAA says both
are acceptable.
>
> http://www.eaavideo.org/detail/video/5776799595001/?mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWWpo
bE9UQTJObVk1TTJabSIsInQiOiJpeGVMOU9DWWg1Vks0Z0QwbFlLQjdvcjZiSCtEVkJpdW1Fd2ps
YU9hL1Z4dVREUTJYa3FmUEdBMjVoRWNzWnBkZ2JNQTBPYVVQYXVwVjZsOGZ3UjhKcWl3UGJaNWJ3
ZXEvc3FnVnA2N0V1Y21NL2tjV21kUTV6bURmVWorZ0pUdCJ9
>
> My aircraft is completely full of PVC connectors. I replace them with nylo
n whenever I install or repair anything but 30 years later the PVC ones are s
till problem free.
>
>> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use P
VC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing light w
ires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the aviation
aisle of Home Depot.
>>
>> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors i
n cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see si
milar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to cold
but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a parking lo
t)?
>>
>> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>>
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 12:37 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>Bob,
>
>That second picture looks like the crimps were
>improperly applied, with no insulation crimp at
>all. Even the most highbrow PIDG terminal
>won=99t help if you don=99t put it on properly.
You may be correct . . . on both counts. I didn't
have the time or charter to investigate this airplane's
condition in all respects. I was to focus
on the chain of events that killed the engine.
Anecdotal observations of lapses in craftsmanship
were numerous.
Bob . . .
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Z-13/8 Question |
At 12:26 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>Thanks Bob. That clears some things up for me. You have not
>commented on using 20AWG with a 24AWG fuselink. I'm sure at some
>point the mechanical properties of the wire become an issue. Is
>24AWG too small to be messing with for a fuselink?
Actually, no . . .
We used a lot of 24AWG in the airframe wiring
on Premier . . . lots of grumbling at the outset
but I think if proved to be pretty much a non
issue. When crimping 24AWG into the red pidg
terminals, I do double the strip length and
fold the strands back to double the copper
in the crimp . . . and i'm not sure that
offers demonstrable benefit.
Play around with it on the bench and see
what YOU think . . .
Bob . . .
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 12:22 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>This electrical connection subject is very
>interesting to me because over the years I=99ve
>seen several failures on my work as well as that
>of others. My son got me onto crimp connectors
>with heat shrink insulation. I=99ve been using
>them for about 5 years now without any failures
>on all kinds of installations, cars, boats and
>aircraft. The insulation once shrunk provides
>support for the wire and besides insulation
>seals against moisture getting into the
>crimp. They=99re available at Polar Wire in
>Anchorage, AK and probably many other places.
Yes, the heat-shrink, pre-insulated butt
splices are a special breed of cat. I've
messed with 'em here and been impressed
of their value . . . with reservations.
Emacs!
None of my rachet-handled tools produced
adequate crimps on 22AWG wire for a RED
splice. Doubling the stranding back helps
a lot. I ultimately settled on my legacy,
hardware-store crimp too . . . put as much
'mash' on it as you can with your bare
hands.
Play with them a bit . . . do a pull test
on a sample installation. You should find
it difficult to part the splice with your
bare hands . . . and it's always good if
the wire 'breaks' as opposed to "pulls out"
at the grip.
Of course you only crimp the wire-grip. The
plastic jacket will look pretty beat up after
the crimps . . . but smooth nicely at the time
of shrinking . . . as see above.
The jacket become quite rigid . . . and the
products I tested also featured dual wall
shrink . . . in internal layer of melting
sealant.
Bob . . .
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 11:01 AM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>
> My Home Depot actually has some Tyco Electronics nylon connectors, which
I
> have used on my plane. But, I am not sure if they have them for butt
> connectors. They definitely have nylon disconnects.
>
>
> Nylon vs. PVC is not the magic difference . . . do the
> any of their offerings feature metallic insulation grips
> under the plastic?
>
=8B=8B
=8BBob,
The Tyco connectors that I found have a metal sleeve, an adhesive layer,
and a plastic insulating layer. Crimp then heat to melt the adhesive and
shrink the insulation. The size is just right for the pigtails on my
landing lights and the wires in the harnesses that i built for the wings
=8B.
I think that these connectors will be a good solution for this particular
application.
=8B
Cheers,
-- Art Z.=8B
--
https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
There is a smaller size of insulated crimp than the red ones, they=99r
e yellow, and for 22-26 gauge wire. I=99ve never seen them in the fles
h, and tooling appears to be scarce and pensive, but I believe they exist.
Then there are the =9Cenvironmental butt splices=9D with the uni
nsulste copper core and the slide over heat-shrink sleeves, from $Raychem$.
On Apr 28, 2018, at 16:33, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroelectri
c.com> wrote:
At 12:22 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
> This electrical connection subject is very interesting to me because over t
he years I=99ve seen several failures on my work as well as that of ot
hers. My son got me onto crimp connectors with heat shrink insulation. I
=99ve been using them for about 5 years now without any failures on all k
inds of installations, cars, boats and aircraft. The insulation once shrunk p
rovides support for the wire and besides insulation seals against moisture g
etting into the crimp. They=99re available at Polar Wire in Anchorage
, AK and probably many other places.
Yes, the heat-shrink, pre-insulated butt
splices are a special breed of cat. I've
messed with 'em here and been impressed
of their value . . . with reservations.
None of my rachet-handled tools produced
adequate crimps on 22AWG wire for a RED
splice. Doubling the stranding back helps
a lot. I ultimately settled on my legacy,
hardware-store crimp too . . . put as much
'mash' on it as you can with your bare
hands.
Play with them a bit . . . do a pull test
on a sample installation. You should find
it difficult to part the splice with your
bare hands . . . and it's always good if
the wire 'breaks' as opposed to "pulls out"
at the grip.
Of course you only crimp the wire-grip. The
plastic jacket will look pretty beat up after
the crimps . . . but smooth nicely at the time
of shrinking . . . as see above.
The jacket become quite rigid . . . and the
products I tested also featured dual wall
shrink . . . in internal layer of melting
sealant.
Bob . . .
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Hi Art:
The reason why PVC is not used - - - supposedly not used, . . . Goes back
to PVC jacketed wire.
You are not supposed to use PVC jacketed wire either, in planes.
I almost said that PVC is NEVER used in aircraft but, I have seen crazy
things done like a PRT!
Not that a PRT is crazy just that they used PVC.
So, the reason why NOT is: Very Caustic Fumes are produced when the PVC
Burns.
The answer to that is: Don't crash!
Barry
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 10:36 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed to use
> PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for the landing
> light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC butt connectors in the
> aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC connectors
> in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe more. Shouldn't I see
> similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably more since it will be exposed to
> cold but not as much heat (as a car regularly cooking in the sun in a
> parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>
> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
> am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
Barry,
A randomly selected list for your perusal:
http://www.nationalwire.com/pdf/cat01_elect_hookup_wire.pdf
On the subject of Very Caustic Fumes: Close yourself up in a closet &
burn some Tefzel insulation. Report back (if able).
Charlie
;-)
On 4/28/2018 7:06 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Hi Art:
>
> The reason why PVC is not used - - - supposedly not used, . . . Goes
> back to PVC jacketed wire.
> You are not supposed to use PVC jacketed wire either, in planes.
> I almost said that PVC is NEVER used in aircraft but, I have seen
> crazy things done like a PRT!
> Not that a PRT is crazy just that they used PVC.
> So, the reason why NOT is: Very Caustic Fumes are produced when the
> PVC Burns.
>
> The answer to that is: Don't crash!
>
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 10:36 AM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name
> <mailto:art@zemon.name>> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> I am out of nylon butt connectors. I know that I am not supposed
> to use PVC connectors in an airplane but... I need connectors for
> the landing light wires, out in the wings. I can grab a few PVC
> butt connectors in the aviation aisle of Home Depot.
>
> Help me figure this out, please. There are a whole lot of PVC
> connectors in cars. Lifetime on the order of 10-20 years, maybe
> more. Shouldn't I see similar lifetime inside a wing? Probably
> more since it will be exposed to cold but not as much heat (as a
> car regularly cooking in the sun in a parking lot)?
>
> This seems acceptable to me. What do you think?
>
> -- Art Z.
>
> --
> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ <https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/>
>
> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for
> myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/
>
>
---
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Message 26
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Bobby:
Even the Rudder Horns on your RV10 are aluminum? I has been a while since
I worked on an RV 6, but I think I recall their horns to be steel??? I was
thinking the RV 10 would have a similar design.
Barry
On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 8:41 AM, Bobby Paulk <bobbypaulk@comcast.net> wrote:
> Barry
>
> My rudder and elevator parts are all aluminum - no iron or steel. Also I
> do not have auto pilot, strobes or any electronic whizzes mounted back
> there. I really think someone ( not me ) stored the cables on the DC
> welding machine while it was being used causing them to become highly
> magnetized.
>
> As an aside I had to change most of our Air National Guard rudder cables
> on the F-106 way back when. The old cables would become magnetized by the
> electronics mounted near them. The full timers would save the dirty or
> labor intense jobs for the part timers ( me ). We had to replace the cables
> with a finer stainless alloy that would not become magnetized. I think the
> cables were about 3/8" in diameter and the airplane was very long. Not an
> easy job.
>
>
> Bobby
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 04:55 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>There is a smaller size of insulated crimp than
>the red ones, they=99re yellow, and for 22-26
>gauge wire. I=99ve never seen them in the flesh,
>and tooling appears to be scarce and pensive, but I believe they exist.
Yes they do, here's one example.
https://goo.gl/bEKHco
Even have a t-head tool that I'd make someone
a really good deal on. Needed it for one
task about 15 years ago.
Bob . . .
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
The reason why PVC is not used - - - supposedly not used, . . . Goes
back to PVC jacketed wire.
You are not supposed to use PVC jacketed wire either, in planes. I
almost said that PVC
is NEVER used in aircraft but, I have seen crazy things done like a
PRT! Not that a PRT
is crazy just that they used PVC. So, the reason why NOT is: Very
Caustic Fumes are
produced when the PVC Burns.
All the times I worked in Cessna factories (62-
69) the single and twin lines were wired with
Mil-W-16878 type BN wire. Nylon jacket over PVC.
The wire is still made and can be used to repair
said airplanes as it is the same material as called
out on the airplane's type certificate.
This was the first step up from varnish over cotton
over rubber that wired the first electrical systems
in the C140, C170, et. als. The spec number escapes
me at the moment but that wire too is still made
and can be used to repair an airplane that calls
it out on the drawings.
Tefzel (and some close cousins like Raychem's Spec
55) were just starting to be pitched in Wichita
about 1982 . . . I recall discussions at Lear concerning
upgrading to these new, higher temperature, more
chemically resistant insulations. The 22759 wire
was export controlled so we were leaning toward
Spec 55 when Lear negotiated the export license
and Teflon became the insulation of choice.
I don't know where that PVC toxicity meme originated.
I don't recall discussing it at Lear . . . the big
whoop for Tefzel was the wider operating temperature
range and lighter weight. To be sure, Tefzel smoke
is not from Marlboro Country! Our major concern from
the airframe perspective was flame characteristics.
Would it self extinguish and was it free of tendencies
to drop flaming balls of molten plastic.
Tefzel was really good in that regard, PVC not
so much . . . Nonetheless, nylon over PVC was the
wire of choice in tens of thousands of Wichita
airframes and I suspect as many more elsewhere.
Bob . . .
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: PVC vs Nylon Connectors |
At 08:05 PM 4/28/2018, you wrote:
>Barry,
>
>A randomly selected list for your perusal:
><http://www.nationalwire.com/pdf/cat01_elect_hookup_wire.pdf>http://www.nationalwire.com/pdf/cat01_elect_hookup_wire.pdf
>
>On the subject of Very Caustic Fumes: Close yourself up in a closet
>& burn some Tefzel insulation. Report back (if able).
Emacs!
Yup, that's the stuff!
Bob . . .
Message 30
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| Subject: | Evolution of Wire (Correction) |
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . The 22759 wire
> was export controlled so we were leaning toward
> Spec 55 when Lear negotiated the export license
> and Teflon became the insulation of choice.
Correction. TEFZEL. We looked at Teflon
but not very hard. Excellent temperature ratings
but very expensive. Teflon extruded onto
the strands at such high temperatures that
you had to have silver plated strands.
Further, Teflon was softer and would cold-flow
under the pressure a too tight a cable tie.
Bob . . .
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