---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/05/18: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:43 AM - 24AWG airframe wire (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 2. 07:27 AM - Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable (Art Zemon) 3. 08:53 AM - Re: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable (Lawrence Handberg) 4. 01:43 PM - Re: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable (Charlie England) 5. 02:18 PM - Re: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable (Gerald Farek) 6. 06:19 PM - Re: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable (FLYaDIVE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:17 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: 24AWG airframe wire At 11:38 AM 5/4/2018, you wrote: >Bob, > > From my limited experience, I see no demonstrable benefit to > working with wire as fine as 24AWG. Certainly the weight is a > non-issue. 24AWG is downright dainty compared to 20AWG. I think it > is criminal that Ray Allen uses such fine wire in its servo > pigtails. To me, using such fine wire is just asking for trouble. I had conversations with those folk about that several years running at OSH. Those conversations that prompted the article I posted at . . . https://goo.gl/GmNi5Q The use of 24 AWG in Premier wasn't so much a weight thing as it was a volume and to some extent a flexibility issue. The battle between various systems groups can approach blood-letting ferocity when parceling out spaces in the airframe. Of course, the engine and flight controls guys are at the top of the hierarchy with everyone else scrambling for the 'scraps'. My heart bled for the HVAC guys . . . making ductwork smaller was never a happy thought. I had the electrical-avionics group on the GP180 when it was still a joint venture between Gates and Piaggio . . . so been there, done that. We were happy to get Tefzel wires on the airplane at the time. The 'open' spaces between cabin trim and the aircraft skin on that airplane was just about an inch . . . There were structural limitations on just how big a hole you could put in a former to run tubes, wires, etc. I wasn't closely connected to the Premier program at Beech, but wrestling matches were equally exciting if not more so. The 24AWG in airframe bundles was all assembled on form boards with wires measured and terminated on automatic machines. It had very little impact on the line techs. But I agree, the 24AWG flying leads off the MAC/RA servos served no customer-friendly purpose. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:27:50 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable Folks, I was planning on soldering my alternator cable lugs (4 AWG and 6 AWG cable) per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf Then I remembered that I have a cable swaging tool, which I used for my rudder cables. =8B Would this tool make acceptable crimps for my cables? -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:44 AM PST US From: Lawrence Handberg Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable You could use one of these Hydraulic Wire Crimping Tool | | | | | | | | | | | Hydraulic Wire Crimping Tool Restricted circuits can cause wire failure, melting or even a fire. Crimp wires and butt connectors properly wit... | | | | If you cant borrow one wait for a 25% of coupon.Good luck From: Art Zemon To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2018 7:42 AM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable Folks, I was planning on soldering my alternator cable lugs (4 AWG and 6 AWG cable ) per=C2-http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf Then I remembered that I have a cable swaging tool, which I used for my rud der cables.=C2-=8B Would this tool make acceptable crimps for my cables? =C2- =C2- -- Art Z. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" 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iigAo9KKKACjvRRQAUUUUAFIKKKAFooooABSDrRRQACl70UUABpD0oooAP8AGgdKKKAFFHeiigBw 6Ukn+rb6UUUAMX7q/Sgf60fSiigBV6PS/wAIoooAG/jo/u0UUANb77fhTZP9aP8AcP8AMUUUASD/ AFv/AAGn0UUARp91frRD/H/vGiigAT/WyfUfyqSiigAooooAKKKKACiiigAooooAKKKKAP/Z ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:43:17 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I was planning on soldering my alternator cable lugs (4 AWG and 6 AWG > cable) per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf > > Then I remembered that I have a cable swaging tool, which I used for my > rudder cables. > > > Would this tool make acceptable crimps for my cables? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > I'd lean toward solder, since there's no assurance that the die will apply the right level of compression (It's made for the figure-8 shape of cable swages). Do you have access to a hydraulic press? I crimped some #4 cables using a big Crescent wrench adjusted to just larger than the barrel diameter, and a piece of steel the same thickness as the barrel. Barrel between the jaws of the wrench, steel on edge above the barrel, and used the press ram to crimp it. I need to put some lugs on some #4 direct-burial aluminum 'quad-plex' cable for a house/hangar project, and I'm thinking about just using my rivet squeezer for that (the cable is already in the ground; hard to get the press up the hill to the ends). For the price, this tool is tempting, though: https://jet.com/product/detail/044de210e0e54490b3104f2933a8c4e9?jcmp=pla: ggl:nj_roc_gen_tools_home_improvement_a2:tools_home_improvement_power_hand_ tools_strippers_crimpers_a2:na:PLA_1062736267_53681764978_pla-575440131752_ c:na:na:na:2PLA15&pid=kenshoo_int&c=1062736267&is_retargeting=true&cl ickid=9b0fea02-66eb-4b09-a0d8-66d818f2a6db&kclid=9b0fea02-66eb-4b09-a0d 8-66d818f2a6db&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrLXXBRCXARIsAIttmRMz6bd20WicKga0R-gwf9V31rSn EMlvZaDPr9oFZflf-2UX0q9m0JgaAsNREALw_wcB Looks like it came from the same factory as the Harbor freight tool they sell for $55. Charlie ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:27 PM PST US From: Gerald Farek Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable HarborFreight has the same crimper. Sent from my iPhone > On May 5, 2018, at 3:41 PM, Charlie England wrote: > > > >> On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Art Zemon wrote: >> Folks, >> >> I was planning on soldering my alternator cable lugs (4 AWG and 6 AWG cab le) per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf >> >> Then I remembered that I have a cable swaging tool, which I used for my r udder cables. >> >> >> Would this tool make acceptable crimps for my cables? >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel > I'd lean toward solder, since there's no assurance that the die will apply the right level of compression (It's made for the figure-8 shape of cable s wages). > > Do you have access to a hydraulic press? I crimped some #4 cables using a b ig Crescent wrench adjusted to just larger than the barrel diameter, and a p iece of steel the same thickness as the barrel. Barrel between the jaws of t he wrench, steel on edge above the barrel, and used the press ram to crimp i t. > > I need to put some lugs on some #4 direct-burial aluminum 'quad-plex' cabl e for a house/hangar project, and I'm thinking about just using my rivet squ eezer for that (the cable is already in the ground; hard to get the press up the hill to the ends). > > For the price, this tool is tempting, though: > https://jet.com/product/detail/044de210e0e54490b3104f2933a8c4e9?jcmp=pla :ggl:nj_roc_gen_tools_home_improvement_a2:tools_home_improvement_power_hand_ tools_strippers_crimpers_a2:na:PLA_1062736267_53681764978_pla-575440131752_c :na:na:na:2PLA15&pid=kenshoo_int&c=1062736267&is_retargeting=true&clic kid=9b0fea02-66eb-4b09-a0d8-66d818f2a6db&kclid=9b0fea02-66eb-4b09-a0d8-6 6d818f2a6db&gclid=Cj0KCQjwrLXXBRCXARIsAIttmRMz6bd20WicKga0R-gwf9V31rSnEMlv ZaDPr9oFZflf-2UX0q9m0JgaAsNREALw_wcB > > Looks like it came from the same factory as the Harbor freight tool they s ell for $55. > > Charlie > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:46 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Crimping connectors on AWG 4 and 6 cable Art: There are TRICKS in soldering cables for such things as the Battery & Alternator. They are NOT difficult but the procedure is NOT just to solder and get a total covered flow as you would when doing say a binding post or a Western Union Splice. Many will argue that you should NOT solder ANY type or SIZE terminal end. Not - True... There are Tricks!!! 99.673% of us would never solder a terminal lug under say a 10 AWG. But soldering larger terminals work GREAT to make both a Physical bond and an Electrical bond. OK, so here are the tricks: 1 - The Lug must be the proper size for the wire you are using. 2 - Make sure the Lug and the Wire are CLEAN. 3 - If you are using a stranded wire as opposed to a braided wire <-- Some welding wires are braided. Twist the wire end to tighten the bond between strands. Twist them in the same direction as the wire under the insulation. 4 - Art, I'm lucky as I never had to use crimp tool that was not hydraulic. So I will not comment on how well your proposed tool will work. I will say: The snugger the fit between the wire and the lug the better the crimp. 5 - I use Silver Solder. Silver Solder is STRONGER then Tin/Lead solder. O! NEVER use Lead Free Solder! It ain't worth the gunpowder to blow it to hell! [Side Note: Military contracts specifically state Tin/Lead Solder. 63/37 Eutectic Solder.] Silver Solder has a better conductivity than Tin/Led solder. AND... There are different types of Silver Solder. You want to use Silver Bearing Solder - I use 5% Silver. Stronger and Better Conductivity. 6 - At this point I have to try to dispel some Old Wive's Tails: a> Soldering a Lug will cause corrosion. Of course it will if you do not clean off the Flux. b> Soldering a Lug will crystallize the wire. Of course it will if you use a Oxy-Acetylene torch. 7 - The Soldering Trick - As I stated before: DO NOT SOLDER THE ENTIRE LUG! That is VERY TRUE! And the reason for NOT soldering the entire lug is: It creates what is know as a Hard Point. No! Not like Hard Points on the F-16. A Hard Point is a Point where there is NO flexibility. Why do you think our small wires work so well and last so long. Flexibility! When you step up to a Heavier Cable and lock it into a Non-Flexible condition, Right At the solid mounted point of the Lug and then vibration moves the cable, the weak point is right where the flexible cable enters the un-flexible lug. So - What do you solder? After crimping, you solder the Ring End of the lug. Just as wire comes out of the lug. You do not need much. Unfortunately experience helps here. You would like the Silver Solder to flow half way down the barrel of the lug and STOP! There is more than enough physical contact with the crimp itself in forming the connection. But, the Silver Solder will: ~ Create the Electrical Bond - Above and well beyond that of the crimp itself. ~ Prevent contamination - Especially at battery terminals. Silver, even dirty is a better conductor than copper. Side Note: YES, you can use FLUX. And you better! But, there are three (3) types of flux that can be used: 1 - RA - Rosin Activated 2 - RMA - Rosin Mildly Activated 3 - AC - Acid Core Now to scare the bejeebers out of 99.9% of the readers. It does NOT matter which flux you use. Wait for it... Wait for it... It does Not matter as long as you clean it 100%. That is the problem. The best flux to use on Silver Solder is AC. But, not many shops use ultrasonics or vapor degreasing in cleaning their wires. Cleaning the Flux off. There are two (2) types of liquid flux. ~ Water Based and ~ Alcohol based. Either type can be cleaned with Alcohol. Isopropyl works great AND you can let the cables and even circuit boards soak in it. What is the purpose of flux? Sorry Wikipedia is incorrect. It is NOT for mechanical strength. Well, not the way it reads. It is to prevent oxidation. Oxidation causes poor electrical and physical bonding. Next Trick: Be Careful with open flame. No, not because you are going to burn the hanger down. Because it causes Oxidation. - Use indirect heating. - Either use a TIP on the end of the torch or heat the lug from the backside, the side away from the wire. If you are using the open flame, keep the flame moving. You will have to practious. I can guarantee you 1,000 % if done this way the connection will last at least 22 Years and you will NOT have starting issues. Well, I can't guarantee the starting issue part, because I do not know the rest of your system. But, mine has been working for the past 22 Years! I'm sure yours will too. Barry On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 10:25 AM, Art Zemon wrote: > Folks, > > I was planning on soldering my alternator cable lugs (4 AWG and 6 AWG > cable) per http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/big_term.pdf > > Then I remembered that I have a cable swaging tool, which I used for my > rudder cables. > =8B > > Would this tool make acceptable crimps for my cables? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.