Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:09 AM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (user9253)
2. 07:41 AM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (Charlie England)
3. 10:59 AM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (FLYaDIVE)
4. 11:02 AM - Re: TyWraps redux (FLYaDIVE)
5. 11:18 AM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (Charlie England)
6. 11:28 AM - Re: TyWraps redux (Bob Verwey)
7. 01:03 PM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
8. 03:10 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (FLYaDIVE)
9. 03:46 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (Alec Myers)
10. 04:26 PM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (kearney)
11. 06:35 PM - Re: Re: Firewall Power Lug (FLYaDIVE)
12. 06:59 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (FLYaDIVE)
13. 08:16 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (Alec Myers)
14. 08:18 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (Alec Myers)
15. 08:34 PM - Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals (Ken Ryan)
16. 08:49 PM - Re: Firewall Power Lug (Bernie)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
Not only is flammability a concern for the Amazon feed-through terminal, but it
also appears that the plastic gets compressed as the bolt is tightened. Many
plastics will flow over time, thus allowing the electrical connection to loosen.
Might be OK if tightened at each annual. Some switches also fail that have
plastic being compressed by current-conducting rivets.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480022#480022
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS
>
> What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least fire
resistance.
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer',
'alumina washer', etc.
You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male
ceramic shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are examples of
what you need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to decide that); just
examples of what they look like.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperature-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760
https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insulated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
Charlie
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
Charlie:
One thing I totally agree with Bob N. on is: Reduction of Failure Points.
Yes, using this type of feed-through would LQQK nice but you have created
three (3) failure points: One at each end of the feed-through and the
freed-through mounting itself. Oh, wait, there are two (2) more potential
failure points; The lugs that go to each end of the wires.
Why not a un-broken run of cable and a better type of feed-through?
I would look for a nice LQQKing feed-through fitting - Water Tight Fitting.
Something like this:
https://www.grainger.com/product/2HYA5?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!166591489617!!!g!81031653477!&ef_id=WuocMQAABn_Z5xGW:20180510175458:s
They also come in S/S.
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Charlie England <ceengland7@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ceengland7@gmail.com>
>
> On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this:
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-
>> Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS
>>
>> What I would like though is something that is also fireproof or at least
>> fire resistance.
>>
>> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Les
>>
>> Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer',
> 'alumina washer', etc.
>
> You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male ceramic
> shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are examples of what you
> need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to decide that); just examples of
> what they look like.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperat
> ure-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?
> _trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insu
> lated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid
> p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
>
> Charlie
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: TyWraps redux |
Nice LQQKing job OM.
Would like to see more.
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 2:14 AM, Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
wrote:
> FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really
> happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here:
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/
>
> I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure that
> I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was impressed.
> It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to melt or change
> state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel wiring to finally
> melt and smoke.
>
> In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about
> getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal
> lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust
> pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :)
>
> Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying.
>
> Mickey Coggins
>
>
> On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good point Bob...
>>
>> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become
>> brittle with time and exposure.
>> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work.
>>
>> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone
>> resistant.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution
>>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on
>>> these products about ten years back . . .
>>>
>>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks
>>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with
>>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process
>>> of applying the wrap.
>>>
>>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved
>>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its
>>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component,
>>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles.
>>>
>>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even
>>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor
>>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but
>>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors.
>>>
>>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes
>>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold
>>> years and were literally falling apart.
>>>
>>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied
>>> like so . . .
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ
>>>
>>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was
>>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had
>>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the
>>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the
>>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years
>>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.
>>> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk &
firesleeve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere.
Since he asked specifically for a bulkhead feed-through for a 'fat'
power wire, I assumed he had made his choice of method and I was trying
to give him an idea that would work and be fire resistant. Your option
has the same vulnerabilities to heat as the original linked article.
Charlie
On 5/10/2018 12:57 PM, FLYaDIVE wrote:
> Charlie:
>
> One thing I totally agree with Bob N. on is: Reduction of Failure Points.
> Yes, using this type of feed-through would LQQK nice but you have
> created three (3) failure points: One at each end of the feed-through
> and the freed-through mounting itself. Oh, wait, there are two (2)
> more potential failure points; The lugs that go to each end of the wires.
> Why not a un-broken run of cable and a better type of feed-through?
>
> I would look for a nice LQQKing feed-through fitting - Water Tight
> Fitting.
> Something like this:
> https://www.grainger.com/product/2HYA5?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL!2966!3!166591489617!!!g!81031653477!&ef_id=WuocMQAABn_Z5xGW:20180510175458:s
> <https://www.grainger.com/product/2HYA5?cm_mmc=PPC:+Google+PLA&s_kwcid=AL%212966%213%21166591489617%21%21%21g%2181031653477%21&ef_id=WuocMQAABn_Z5xGW:20180510175458:s>
>
> They also come in S/S.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Charlie England
> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <ceengland7@gmail.com <mailto:ceengland7@gmail.com>>
>
> On 5/9/2018 9:49 PM, kearney wrote:
>
> <kearney@shaw.ca <mailto:kearney@shaw.ca>>
>
> Hi
>
> I am looking for a firewall power lug similar to this:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS
> <https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Firewall-Feed-Thru-Terminal-Connector/dp/B0038O2CIS>
>
> What I would like though is something that is also fireproof
> or at least fire resistance.
>
> Can anyone point me in the right direction?
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
> Search for 'ceramic insulating washer', 'ceramic shoulder washer',
> 'alumina washer', etc.
>
> You can roll your own pass through with a brass bolt & nut, a male
> ceramic shoulder washer, and a ceramic flat washer. Here are
> examples of what you need. *Not* the exact sizes (you'll need to
> decide that); just examples of what they look like.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperature-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/8mm-10mm-14mm-20mm-OD-High-Temperature-Resistant-Male-Ceramic-Insulate-Washer-/232695504756?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10&var=532197640760>
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insulated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/15mm-OD-6mm-High-Round-Ceramic-Insulated-Washer-Fender-50-Pieces-Q5N9-/253489306817?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10>
>
> Charlie
>
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: TyWraps redux |
Nice one! Prolly put some of those certified boys to shame!
On Thu, 10 May 2018, 8:21 AM Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch> wrote:
> FWF I used a lot of flat lace along with some adel clamps and I'm really
> happy with the way it turned out. I have some pictures here:
>
> http://www.rv8.ch/fwf-wiring-photos/
>
> I also did some testing with a good heat gun on the lace to make sure that
> I understood how it would behave if it got really hot - I was impressed.
> It basically didn't seem to care, and I could not get it to melt or change
> state in any way with the heat gun that will cause Tefzel wiring to finally
> melt and smoke.
>
> In parallel, I bought some Nomex lace, which also does not care about
> getting cooked by a heat gun, and will probably add this next to the normal
> lace in places that might be exposed to additional heat from the exhaust
> pipes. Will give some feedback in a few years when I'm finally flying. :)
>
> Not sure why, but working with the lace was very satisfying.
>
> Mickey Coggins
>
>
> On Wed, 9 May 2018 at 18:14, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Good point Bob...
>>
>> In general BLACK Ty-Wraps are UV and Ozone proof. The white ones become
>> brittle with time and exposure.
>> SOME - not all colored Ty-Wraps may also work.
>>
>> One might even find notes on the Ty-Wrap packaging as to UV & Ozone
>> resistant.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 4:32 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
>>
>>> nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a recent thread, TyWraps were discussed as a solution
>>> for wire bundle management. We had some discussions on
>>> these products about ten years back . . .
>>>
>>> In years since, I've had occasion to throw out stocks
>>> of unused TyWraps given that they had become brittle with
>>> age . . . the buckles would snap off in the ordinary process
>>> of applying the wrap.
>>>
>>> Be aware that not all that is plastic is Nylon 6,6. Evolved
>>> over the last 80+ years by DuPont. This material and its
>>> close cousins have found their way into all manner of component,
>>> many of which perform in under-hood environment of automobiles.
>>>
>>> When purchasing these critters, look for a 6-6, 6/6, 66 or even
>>> a 6,6 description of the nylon. The last time I was in Harbor
>>> Freight, many of their offerings bore such markings . . . but
>>> some did not . . . especially the smaller ones in assorted colors.
>>>
>>> All the wraps I pitched a few years ago were smaller sizes
>>> in various colors. Some had been in my Dad's inventory for untold
>>> years and were literally falling apart.
>>>
>>> My favorite bundle security uses Dacron flat lace applied
>>> like so . . .
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/H3z1EQ
>>>
>>> Did a job for a rancher friend yesterday where the wiring was
>>> installed and initially held in place with some TyWraps he had
>>> laying around . . . after it was up and running, I dug out the
>>> roll of flat lace and installed a wrap adjacent to each of the
>>> TyWraps. Those plastic thingies MIGHT fall off in a few years
>>> but I'm betting the string will still be on duty.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bob . . .
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">
>>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
At 01:17 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote:
>I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk &
>firesleeve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere.
Here's a comic book I published a years back
illustrating the methodology used on Bonanza
and Baron aircraft at Beech.
https://goo.gl/9vLwXF
As far as I know, they still do it this way.
A good friend and colleague of many years
at Beech was a guy named Jack Thurman. He
was dungeon and rack master at "Thurman's
House of Horrors". The well worn admonition
concerning new ideas for bolting things
to Beech products was, "If Jack can't tear
it up, it's good to go on a Beechcraft."
One of Jack's more impressive toys was a
propane fired burner (suitable for burning
really BIG weeds) that would bathe a firewall
mock-up with 2000 DegF flames. It's a certainty
that Master of Mayhem Thurman sprinkled
holy water on the techniques described above.
At one time, members here on the list were
fabricating welded, stainless elbows with
flanges from the ends of COTS grab bars.
Cutting the ends of of something like this
would get you two elbows:
https://goo.gl/6Q4jkC
Unfortunately, these are pretty 'oversized'
for our tasks . . . and stick up off the
firewall quite a bit.
One could consider fabricating from pre-bent
elbows, a flange washer cut from stainless sheet
and a short nipple of stainless tube. If you've
got access to a talented TIG driver, you could
probably come up with some pretty nice parts
sized to the task.
Bob . . .
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition
to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive
for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring
terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or
hardware drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into
the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of
the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing
point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical
crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to
say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified
Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are
expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated
Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated
part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut
into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are
NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug
you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire
insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has
changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use
them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
Barry
On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> educate me....
>
> why is uninsulated bad?
> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>
> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Art:
>
> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific
> specs?
> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all
> different practices.
> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current
> practice.
> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
> Sharp Edges
> UN-INSULATED
> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are
> experimental.
> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft
>> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to
>> keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact th
an trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I d
on=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything
at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a t
ermination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet h
ere they are, in use in white goods the world over.
Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
Alec:
In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition t
o cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive for.
You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
Connection terminals on relays.
Terminals on Alternators and even
Terminals on Mags.
Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring termi
nals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hardwa
re drop on the terminal lug.
When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into th
e insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the w
ire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point o
f the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Consi
der why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a ma
inly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a
re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo
nes pocketbook.
There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated Cri
mp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part of
the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are N
OT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug yo
u are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation. M
ater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has n
ot gone away!
Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use them.
You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
Barry
> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> educate me....
>
> why is uninsulated bad?
> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>
> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Art:
>
> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s
pecs?
> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differe
nt practices.
> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current pr
actice.
> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
> Sharp Edges
> UN-INSULATED
> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experim
ental.
> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>
> Barry
>
>
>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce.
com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to k
eep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> -- Art Z.
>>
>> --
>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>
>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what
am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
Hi
Thank you everyone for the replies. My application is only for a power stud so
my preference is for something similar to what I originally posted.
I am sensitive to using plastics which is why I posted the query. I have heard
that some commercial aircraft use studs of the type I am looking for. I just don't
want the $$$ cost of "brand name aircraft parts".
Cheers
Les
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480043#480043
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
Yes, Kearney;
Piper uses studs on their battery cables and battery box.
I curse them ALL the time!
You could always make your own with Phenolic Board and Brass Bolts. You
could also use a few nuts & bolts to hold the phenolic board in-place on
the firewall and use the brass bolt & nuts to pass the power through. It
would be a much better structure than anything you could buy. And cost you
very little. And structurally, extreamly sound and water tight.
It can be either single board or double board (both sides of the firewall).
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:25 PM, kearney <kearney@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Thank you everyone for the replies. My application is only for a power
> stud so my preference is for something similar to what I originally posted.
>
> I am sensitive to using plastics which is why I posted the query. I have
> heard that some commercial aircraft use studs of the type I am looking for.
> I just don't want the $$$ cost of "brand name aircraft parts".
>
> Cheers
>
> Les
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480043#480043
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so
Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by
ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as
RV?
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY
HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs
can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp.
Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money
saved there.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for
aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven
Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation
world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you
SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your
experimental idea too?
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and
prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out
of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
Barry
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact
> than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afra
id I don=99t
> believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all, i
f
> they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a terminati
on is a
> false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are,
> in use in white goods the world over.
>
> Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
>
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alec:
>
> In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case conditio
n
> to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive
> for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
> Connection terminals on relays.
> Terminals on Alternators and even
> Terminals on Mags.
> Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring
> terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver o
r
> hardware drop on the terminal lug.
> When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into
> the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of
> the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing
> point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical
> crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to
> say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified
> Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are
> expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
> There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated
> Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated
> part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut
> into wire.
> Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that ar
e
> NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
> Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug
> you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire
> insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has
> changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
> Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use
> them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
>
> Barry
>
> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>
>> educate me....
>>
>> why is uninsulated bad?
>> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>>
>> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Art:
>>
>> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific
>> specs?
>> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all
>> different practices.
>> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current
>> practice.
>> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
>> Sharp Edges
>> UN-INSULATED
>> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
>> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
>> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are
>> experimental.
>> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft
>>> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom t
o
>>> keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>>
>>
>>
>
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerl
ly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation
manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV?
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL
! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs ca
n be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look a
t the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved t
here.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for a
ircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry
(Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you d
o not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and h
ave the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental id
ea too?
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and pro
ve me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of t
he the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
Barry
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact t
han trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I
don=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anythi
ng at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a
termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet
here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
>
> Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
>
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alec:
>
> In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition
to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive fo
r. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
> Connection terminals on relays.
> Terminals on Alternators and even
> Terminals on Mags.
> Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring ter
minals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hard
ware drop on the terminal lug.
> When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into t
he insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the
wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point
of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Con
sider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a m
ainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a
re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo
nes pocketbook.
> There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated C
rimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part o
f the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
> Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are
NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
> Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug y
ou are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation.
Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has
not gone away!
> Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use the
m. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
>
> Barry
>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>> educate me....
>>
>> why is uninsulated bad?
>> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>>
>> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Art:
>>
>> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s
pecs?
>> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differ
ent practices.
>> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current p
ractice.
>> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
>> Sharp Edges
>> UN-INSULATED
>> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
>> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
>> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experi
mental.
>> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce
.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to
keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
Barry
I=99d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about ho
w to build a vibration test, somehow :)
On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
Alec:
They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so Manufacturerl
ly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by ALL the aviation
manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as RV?
As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY HELL
! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs ca
n be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp. Look a
t the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO money saved t
here.
If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable for a
ircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven Industry
(Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation world you d
o not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and you SHOULD and h
ave the right to do better. But what are you comparing your experimental id
ea too?
Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and pro
ve me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ out of t
he the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
Barry
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fact t
han trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afraid I
don=99t believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anythi
ng at all, if they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a
termination is a false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet
here they are, in use in white goods the world over.
>
> Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
>
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alec:
>
> In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case condition
to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what we strive fo
r. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things as:
> Connection terminals on relays.
> Terminals on Alternators and even
> Terminals on Mags.
> Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring ter
minals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver or hard
ware drop on the terminal lug.
> When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Into t
he insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point of the
wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing point
of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical crimp. Con
sider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to say this on a m
ainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified Aircraft procedures a
re bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are expensive just to line someo
nes pocketbook.
> There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated C
rimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated part o
f the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut into wire.
> Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that are
NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
> Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lug y
ou are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire insulation.
Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has changed. BUT! Has
not gone away!
> Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use the
m. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
>
> Barry
>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>> educate me....
>>
>> why is uninsulated bad?
>> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>>
>> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Art:
>>
>> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specific s
pecs?
>> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all differ
ent practices.
>> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current p
ractice.
>> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
>> Sharp Edges
>> UN-INSULATED
>> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
>> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
>> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are experi
mental.
>> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>>
>> Barry
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraftspruce
.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom to
keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> -- Art Z.
>>>
>>> --
>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>
>>> "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha
t am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel
>>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Re: Faston / Aveo Tab Terminals |
Maybe an electric toothbrush?
On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:16 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
> Barry
>
> I=99d be as happy to prove you right, as wrong. I might think about
how to
> build a vibration test, somehow :)
>
> On May 10, 2018, at 21:57, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Alec:
>
> They are at least twice as bad as I describe. If they were so
> Manufacturerlly acceptable why are they not being used or recommended by
> ALL the aviation manufactures and experimental aircraft suppliers such as
> RV?
> As for: " A penny saved on a termination is a false economy...", PENNY
> HELL! The manufactures argue tenths of a cent (1 mill)!
>
> Your statement of HAND TOOL is spot ON! Look at the many ways those lugs
> can be used and how many of those ways will NOT produce a proper crimp.
> Look at the cost of a Mil-Spec Hand Tool to do the job. There is NO mone
y
> saved there.
>
> If as you say are interested in: "...trying to pick something suitable
> for aircraft..." why not go with what is an industry standard - A Proven
> Industry (Aviation) Standard? YES, I know in the Experimental Aviation
> world you do not have to follow a majority of the FAA requirements and yo
u
> SHOULD and have the right to do better. But what are you comparing your
> experimental idea too?
>
> Hey! Just had an idea... If you want to prove your thought process and
> prove me wrong. Make a simple vibration test bench and shake the S#!+ ou
t
> of the the lug you picked and the ones the aviation industry use.
>
> Barry
>
>
> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 6:44 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>
>> My interest in this stems more from discerning myth from measureable fac
t
>> than trying to pick something suitable for aircraft, but I=99m afr
aid I don=99t
>> believe any industrial manufacturer would use them for anything at all,
if
>> they=99re even half as bad as you say. A penny saved on a terminat
ion is a
>> false economy if it decreases product reliability, and yet here they are
,
>> in use in white goods the world over.
>>
>> Perhaps there=99s an issue with reliable hand tool application?
>>
>>
>> On May 10, 2018, at 18:08, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Alec:
>>
>> In building or repairs it is always (in dreamland) the best case
>> condition to cover the terminals as much as possible. Well, that is what
we
>> strive for. You might have seen rubber/silicone boots over such things
as:
>> Connection terminals on relays.
>> Terminals on Alternators and even
>> Terminals on Mags.
>> Leaving terminals exposed opens up the high possibility of neighboring
>> terminals to contact each other, or having something like a screwdriver
or
>> hardware drop on the terminal lug.
>> When talking about the Why-Not of the metal rollover tabs. They Cut Int
o
>> the insulation of the wire. This is a weak point and a breaking point o
f
>> the wire MOUNT. It is best NOT to consider this rollover tab a securing
>> point of the lug and consider it just a sloppy part of the electrical
>> crimp. Consider why they are NOT used in certified aircraft. I hate to
>> say this on a mainly Experimental Email Site but... Not ALL Certified
>> Aircraft procedures are bad, or just done to satisfy the FAA, or are
>> expensive just to line someones pocketbook.
>> There was just a long thread on this email site that discussed Insulated
>> Crimp Connectors. The insulated part of the lug Supports the insulated
>> part of the wire. It gives it a secure holding point that DOES NOT cut
>> into wire.
>> Something else to view (look at Mil Spec Lugs) and consider: Lugs that
>> are NOT insulated do NOT support the wire insulation.
>> Over the decades I have worked in electronics I have see this type of lu
g
>> you are considering fail as the rollover part cuts into the wire
>> insulation. Mater of fact: The design of this type of rollover has
>> changed. BUT! Has not gone away!
>> Let the Ground Bound Clowns (Chinese Junk) that are penny pinching use
>> them. You are a Pilot and a Builder, your plane and you are worth it.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 5:39 PM, Alec Myers <alec@alecmyers.com> wrote:
>>
>>> educate me....
>>>
>>> why is uninsulated bad?
>>> What=99s the problem with the wrapover insulation support?
>>>
>>> On May 9, 2018, at 17:11, FLYaDIVE <flyadive@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Art:
>>>
>>> I have got to ask... Are you building your experimental to any specifi
c
>>> specs?
>>> As an Experimental Builder, yes, you are allowed to experiment all
>>> different practices.
>>> But, I see no reason why all your wiring should not be the Best current
>>> practice.
>>> Those type connectors are very ancient and have all sorts of issues...
>>> Sharp Edges
>>> UN-INSULATED
>>> Grip Support of the wire insulation.
>>> No universal manufacturing procedures. Example Not Mil-Spec.
>>> Un-Acceptable Certified Design (FAA, AC 43.13) Yes, I know you are
>>> experimental.
>>> Why would you want to use something from the dark ages?
>>>
>>> Barry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Art Zemon <art@zemon.name> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Folks,
>>>>
>>>> Does Digikey (or anyone) sell these terminals? http://www.aircraft
>>>> spruce.com/catalog/elpages/aveotabterminals.php
>>>> They are regular Faston terminals but have a little tab on the bottom
>>>> to keep them from slipping out of a plastic housing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> -- Art Z.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/
>>>>
>>>> *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself,
>>>> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel*
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Firewall Power Lug |
Bob
I like these rather sophisticated through firewall fittings but they all loo
k permanent. Super Cubs have swing out mounts to access the mags and other a
ccessories on the back of the engine.
In spite of allowing extra length in cables some must be disconnected and ot
hers allowed to move in the firewall. I believe Piper used a rubber grommet f
or abrasion protection and then covered the whole area with a fireproof clay
. It never gets hard and is easily replaced. I still get it at a commercial e
lectrical supply. Any thought on this method?
Bernie
Sent from my iPhone
> On May 10, 2018, at 12:02 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob@aeroel
ectric.com> wrote:
>
> At 01:17 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote:
>> I use the flanged stainless tube feed-through, with fire caulk & fireslee
ve, detailed in the 'Connection and elsewhere.
>
> Here's a comic book I published a years back
> illustrating the methodology used on Bonanza
> and Baron aircraft at Beech.
>
> https://goo.gl/9vLwXF
>
> As far as I know, they still do it this way.
> A good friend and colleague of many years
> at Beech was a guy named Jack Thurman. He
> was dungeon and rack master at "Thurman's
> House of Horrors". The well worn admonition
> concerning new ideas for bolting things
> to Beech products was, "If Jack can't tear
> it up, it's good to go on a Beechcraft."
>
> One of Jack's more impressive toys was a
> propane fired burner (suitable for burning
> really BIG weeds) that would bathe a firewall
> mock-up with 2000 DegF flames. It's a certainty
> that Master of Mayhem Thurman sprinkled
> holy water on the techniques described above.
>
> At one time, members here on the list were
> fabricating welded, stainless elbows with
> flanges from the ends of COTS grab bars.
> Cutting the ends of of something like this
> would get you two elbows:
>
> https://goo.gl/6Q4jkC
>
> Unfortunately, these are pretty 'oversized'
> for our tasks . . . and stick up off the
> firewall quite a bit.
>
> One could consider fabricating from pre-bent
> elbows, a flange washer cut from stainless sheet
> and a short nipple of stainless tube. If you've
> got access to a talented TIG driver, you could
> probably come up with some pretty nice parts
> sized to the task.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bob . . .
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