---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/15/18: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:26 AM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Jan de Jong) 2. 12:45 AM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Werner Schneider) 3. 06:48 AM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Ernest Christley) 4. 08:46 AM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (FLYaDIVE) 5. 02:05 PM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Art Zemon) 6. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Art Zemon) 7. 02:19 PM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (FLYaDIVE) 8. 02:23 PM - Re: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (FLYaDIVE) 9. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Sebastien) 10. 02:59 PM - Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Carlos Trigo) 11. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS (Carlos Trigo) 12. 05:33 PM - Shower of Sparks () 13. 06:06 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks (FLYaDIVE) 14. 07:52 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks (John B) 15. 08:09 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks () 16. 09:54 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks (Stuart Hutchison) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:26:28 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS From: Jan de Jong I would go for this Voltage Slump Eliminator first - a passive device. Switchers must be designed to generate little radiated and conducted interference - see the discussions on usb-charging. Jan de Jong On 5/15/2018 5:19 AM, Rick Beebe wrote: > > Eric Page, who's on this list, created a device to protect against > this using a large capacitor. He modified an earlier design by Eric > Jones. I bought one from him. It works great on my bench. Should be > going in the plane in the next week or so. His original email is > quoted below: > > --Rick > > > Im starting a new thread on this topic in case anyone who might be > interested missed the recent discussion, here: > > http://forum.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=16768062 > > To recap, Ive adapted Eric Jones design for a voltage slump > eliminator (a device to prevent EFIS/EMS brownout/reboot during engine > start) and designed a circuit board for it. The schematic (.PDF) is > here: > > http://forum.matronics.com/download.php?id=44878 > > An archive (.ZIP) containing the full design files can be downloaded > here: > > https://preview.tinyurl.com/yajod9m6 > > So far one member of the forum has expressed a desire for me to build > one of these for him, so Ive ordered a batch of circuit boards. If > anyone else wants a complete unit, please let me know so I can order > all of the components at once. You can reply to this thread or > contact me directly. > > The cost should be about $35 each, plus postage to your address. > Ill send a PayPal invoice, along with copies of my receipts, once I > know the exact amount for each device and I have them ready to mail. > > Im happy to part with bare circuit boards as well; again, for my > cost ($0.55/ea) plus postage. > > Eric > > P.S. For anyone seeing this in the future, you can contact me > directly to see if I have any circuit boards on hand. The PDF > schematic file contains a link to Digi-Key that will load a shopping > cart with all necessary components. > > > On 05/14/2018 07:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the engine. >> When I first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS >> reboots. The EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but >> it takes several seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. >> >> It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing >> about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to >> keep the EFIS from rebooting. >> >> I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the >> ammeter shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a >> bit. You can see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf >> >> >> >> What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? >> >> -- Art Z. >> >> -- >> https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ >> >> /"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, >> what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel/ > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:35 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS From: Werner Schneider Art, I had a similar issue not sure it is related to yours, my grounding strap was connected to the engine case but I forgot to clean the paint of the case, this made for a bad ground (you could feel all the control lines to the engine heated up). Jump the negative pole of your battery to your exhaust and try again, my engine started immediately after that so I did know where to search. Again, not sure it is related to your case but an easy test. Cheers Werner On 15.05.2018 01:51, Art Zemon wrote: > > Folks, > > I am /finally/to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:48:09 AM PST US From: Ernest Christley Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS For a more DIY experience: DC/DC Converters | MPJA.COM | | | | | | | | | | | DC/DC Converters | MPJA.COM | | | | On Monday, May 14, 2018 10:09 PM, Robert McCallum wrote: Read the specifications carefully as the following statement from their specs might be an issue. "Please note: the negative of input and output wiring cannot be common gro und." Bob McC ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Art Zemon Charlie, That sounds like exactly what I need: brownout protection for one to two seconds. Is this the sort of regulator that I need? https://www.ebay.com/i tm/DROK-High-Efficiency-Regulator-DC-4-5-30V-to-0-8-28V-12A-Buck-Converter- Const/152990560495 -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Charlie England < ceengland7@gmail.com> wrote: Ebay for a 'boot/buck switching regulator' sized for your needs (likely way less than$30), and an aux battery sized the same way. Create a 'mini' b us for the items you want to isolate. If all you want is brownout protection, a little 2 or 3 AH battery shoul be more than enough. There are other commercial products available that do the same thing, bu t obviously you will pay more. Charlie On May 14, 2018, at 7:45 PM, Art Zemon < art@zemon.name> wrote : Sebastien, MGL sells the AvioGuard, a DC-to-DC converting power supply for isolatin g the avionics from the rest of the aircraft system. It supports a backup b attery. Cost would be $450 + the battery. I am hoping for a less expensive solution. -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Sebastien < cluros@gmail.com> wrote: Battery for the EFIS? Does MGL make a backup battery for your engine moni tor? On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Art Zemon < art@zemon.name> wrote: =8B=8B Folks, I am finally to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I f irst engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The EFI S immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several secon ds for the engine instruments to come back online. It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing ab out 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep the EFIS from rebooting. I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammet er shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You c an see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon. com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel =C2- ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:49 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Art: The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. But, I'm guessing that is not the way you want to go. Bob must have some reason why grounds cannot be common. Try his notes second if you do not want to change your starting procedure. Side Note: The 5 Amps you mention on draw are probably the constant current draw and not the peak draw. Just for S&G's consider the peak to be 3 times the constant. Now how would that affect your system? Side Note: What does the Battery voltage drop to when you hit the starter? Some starters post notes that if the voltage drops below 10 VDC the charging system or battery or starter connection should be looked into. The idea of a DC to DC battery backup would work but I do not see why you have to go that elaborate or anywhere that costly. A simple standby battery and a relay that is energized when the Starter Relay is energized just to supply power to the Avionics would work. If you think a mechanical relay would be too slow in transferring power you could use a solid-state relay. As a side benefit the battery could be used as emergency avionics buss power. All that would be needed is a desperate Switch to energizer the Avionics relay. Good Luck OM, Barry On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > =8B=8B > Folks, > > I am *finally* to the point on my project of starting the engine. When I > first engage the starter, voltage drops so low that my EFIS reboots. The > EFIS immediately reboots, less than 1 second later, but it takes several > seconds for the engine instruments to come back online. > > It is a 12 volt system. During engine start, the equipment is drawing > about 5 amps (other than the starter motor). I need about 9 volts to keep > the EFIS from rebooting. > > I am using figure Z-12 with very minor modifications: replaced the ammete r > shunts with hall effect sensors and rearranged the switches a bit. You ca n > see my modified diagram here: engine.pdf > > > What would be the simplest way to fix this issue? > > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, wha t > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:05:11 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Barry, The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge. -- Art Z. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the > Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:06 PM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Joe, Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 volts or at 12.7 volts. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky > diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should > be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:19:36 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS AHHhhhhh Got Ya! Art! Yea, you are right... Get the EFIS to boot and stay Up and Running! You got me thinking Art... I am installing a E.I. CGR 30P in a certified plane, it will be having oil pressure also... I have to solve the same issue as you. Of course I'll be limited with options, I'll have to try the Direct To Battery trick with a relay. Barry On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 5:03 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > Barry, > > The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then > I do not have an oil pressure gauge. > > -- Art Z. > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: > >> The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the >> Avionics on AFTER you start the engine. >> > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:36 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Joe: I like your schematic, what program are you using to draw it? Barry On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 10:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky > diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should > be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:40:14 PM PST US From: Sebastien Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Art, I have noticed on a couple dual Dynon installs that while the voltage drop kicks the flight EFIS into reboot, the engine EFIS does not. I would guess this is by design. Have you asked GRT about this problem? It's possible this is something that would be worth their while to patch. On Tue, May 15, 2018, 10:21 PM Art Zemon wrote: > Joe, > > Thanks. I think that your circuit will be perfect. I can add a small > battery and it doesn't matter a bit whether or not my EFIS runs at 13.2 > volts or at 12.7 volts. > > Cheers, > -- Art Z. > > On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 9:10 PM, user9253 wrote: > >> >> Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky >> diode. >> But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it >> should be OK. >> Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA >> If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay >> contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the >> relay >> with the start push button. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what > am I? And if not now, when?" Hillel* > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:30 PM PST US From: Carlos Trigo Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Art Further to the best electric solution you certainly will find to avoid the b rownout, a belt & suspenders solution could be to install a small oil pressu re indicator. At least that was my way to solve the same problem, before I decided to go w ith the TCW backup battery. Cheers Carlos Enviado do meu iPhone No dia 15/05/2018, =C3-s 22:03, Art Zemon escreveu: > Barry, > > The EFIS is my engine instruments. If the EFIS is off (or rebooting) then I do not have an oil pressure gauge. > > -- Art Z. > >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 10:44 AM, FLYaDIVE wrote: >> The simplest thing that would not cost you a penny is to: Turn the Avio nics on AFTER you start the engine. > > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > "If I am not for myself, who is for me? And if I am only for myself, what a m I? And if not now, when?" Hillel ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:40 PM PST US From: Carlos Trigo Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Starting the Engine Reboots the EFIS Joe Smart circuit, but will it recharge the backup battery? Carlos No dia 15/05/2018, s 03:10, user9253 escreveu: > > Here is circuit. A disadvantage is 1/2 volt drop across the Schottky diode. > But if the aircraft electrical system voltage is 14.2 or higher, it should be OK. > Diode part number: 747-DSA300i45NA > If the voltage drop across the diode is not desired, normally closed relay > contacts could be connected in parallel with the diode. Energize the relay > with the start push button. > > -------- > Joe Gores > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480130#480130 > > > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/brownout_bat_efis_135.jpg > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:45 PM PST US From: Subject: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. Thanks Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:15 PM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Mike: To test the Shower Of Sparks - Disconnect the Starter. You can do this easily by pulling the control wire to the Starter Relay. This way you can activate the Shower Of Sparks (SOS) and LISTEN for the BUZZ and SAFELY not have to worry about a spinning prop. You can also remove the spark plug wire from each of the spark plugs. Do you want to check out the Mag and the Spark Plug wires as well as the SOS? If so here is another TRICK! Go to a automotive store and get the Clear Plastic Spark Plug test light... It has a Neon bulb inside. You hook up the test light to the wires. Re-Connect the control wire on the starter relay and CRANK AWAY. You will see a longer time duration to the spark than if there was NO SOS. And, it will be a nice bright light. Again as compared to a standard Impulse Mag. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:32 PM, wrote: > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > =8BBarry - I never had a over heating problem. I would guess and eas y Minute.=8B > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type > of spark or sparks should I expect. > =8BBarry - A standard Blueish Spark of Longer Duration.=8B > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > =8BBarry - See above. =8BBest of Luck,=8B Barry=8B > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:52:16 PM PST US From: John B Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks What is being used as a "shower of sparks" for the LOM engine? On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 7:32 PM, wrote: > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type > of spark or sparks should I expect. > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:52 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks The standard LOM supplied shower of sparks module that is described on one of Bob=99s Z diagrams, I have it at the hangar so cannot remember the diagram number. Thanks Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John B Sent: May 15, 2018 7:50 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks What is being used as a "shower of sparks" for the LOM engine? On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 7:32 PM, > wrote: > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. Thanks Mike --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus - Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List FORUMS - eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:52 PM PST US From: Stuart Hutchison Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Mike, the induction vibrator (AKA starter vibrator) wired to the left Magneto start circuit oscillates at 200Hz, so it simply causes lots of sparks (at a rate of 200 per second, rather than one spark) every time a plug is fired. The 22-25 deg advance breaker is grounded in favour of the retard breaker firing at TDC to avoid kickback. Its hard to harm the starter vibrator and youd be hard pressed to see sparks at a rate of 200Hz, but the engine (especially a six) is a whole lot easier to start when the circuit is working! Stu > On 16 May 2018, at 10:32, wrote: > > > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, > > 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it > > 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type of spark or sparks should I expect. > > 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. > > > Thanks > > Mike > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.