---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/21/18: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:06 AM - Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz (mike>bentley) 2. 08:45 AM - Re: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 3. 09:05 AM - Re: VHF antenna in the tail (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 4. 03:27 PM - OV sensing in Z-12 (Charlie England) 5. 04:25 PM - Re: OV sensing in Z-12 (user9253) 6. 04:54 PM - Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (user9253) 7. 05:23 PM - Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (user9253) 8. 05:48 PM - Re: OV sensing in Z-12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 9. 05:51 PM - Re: Re: OV sensing in Z-12 (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 10. 06:43 PM - Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 11. 07:02 PM - Re: OV sensing in Z-12 (user9253) 12. 07:16 PM - Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (user9253) 13. 07:20 PM - Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (user9253) 14. 07:47 PM - Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? (ashleysc@broadstripe.net) 15. 08:05 PM - Re: Shower of Sparks () 16. 08:55 PM - Re: OV sensing in Z-12 (Charlie England) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:16 AM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz From: "mike>bentley" Thanks for the input everyone. My plane seems to be the only one this is happening to as I've flown the same route in everything from Cubs to Challenger 300's and no interference. I'll try what you all suggested and report back. Thanks again. -------- Mike Bentley Joplin, MO N5498B Kitfox Model 4-1200 Jabiru 2200 #438 Rotec Aerosport LCH Heads Prince Prop (64 x 34) Ellison EFS-2 Throttle Body Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480274#480274 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:54 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Radio or Television Tower Buzz At 10:05 AM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >Thanks for the input everyone. My plane seems to be the only one >this is happening to as I've flown the same route in everything from >Cubs to Challenger 300's and no interference. I'll try what you all >suggested and report back. Interference of this type is not a consistent manifestation. Characteristics of the victim and propagation modes can be significantly different even in apparently identical aircraft. The Hawkers had features in their annunciation sensing and response systems that were grand-fathered over from some rather arcane technology and design philosophies. A polite way of suggesting every ship had dozens of potential victims designed to be problem children. In spite of obvious vulnerabilities, the percentage of problem children was relatively low . . . but a pain in the what's-it to fix . . . and every fix was a band-aid. The fact that you're a solitary observer of the problem cited is not unusual. Further, fixing the problem COULD be time consuming and expensive . . . been there and done that on more than one program! As long as the effects do not present a safety of flight condition, I suggest that further investigation is more academic than practical . . . but we would like to hear what you discover. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:05:06 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: VHF antenna in the tail Had a dentist appointment 33 miles away this morning . . . did some 'asphalt engineering' on this thread . . . I occurred to me that the design might be more easily fabricated, installed and maintained if the chassis connector originally suggested were replaced with a BNCF->BNCF bulkhead feed thru like:Bu https://goo.gl/XDTtod The feed line from the transceiver would be terminated in a BNCM cable connector as before. Instead of terminating the radiator with a solder joint at the connector, it too would be fitted with a BNCM cable connector so that it could be detached without disturbing the ground plane. This style of connector seems a likely candidate: https://goo.gl/VLjQXH Solder a short stub of 20AWG wire into the center pin to facilitate connection to the end of the radiator's 'flexy' section. Cover with heat shrink. With the pin fully seated in the connector, back-fill the connector shell with JB weld or other epoxy. The connector clamp ring, gasket and compression nut are discarded. By the way, the ground plane doesn't need to be tucked up tight against the bottom of the radiator conduit. Several inches of radiator could be used to jump a short gap from bottom of conduit to the ground plane without serious effect. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:04 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: AeroElectric-List: OV sensing in Z-12 Well, I'm starting to question my powers of analysis (or at least my memory). While pondering OV protection with dual alternators (using something less expensive than the B&C units), I perused drawing Z-12. Should I assume that the aux alternator must be left disabled until needed? It appears that having both alts on line would result in both OV protection circuits firing, if either alt had an OV event. What I'd like to achieve (alternative engine with auto style engine control) is both alternators (identical capacity) operating all the time, with OV protection taking out only the bad alternator. Thoughts? Charlie Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:25:45 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV sensing in Z-12 From: "user9253" Charlie, I agree that both over-voltage modules would trip simultaneously. Options: 1. Like you said, only turn on one alternator at a time. 2. Insert diodes 747-DSA300i45NA in the alternator B leads and connect the over-voltage protection upstream of each diode. 3. Monitor the current on each B lead. In an over voltage condition, shut off only the alternator that is putting out the highest current. This option requires the design of an electronic circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480281#480281 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:38 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? From: "user9253" There is a recent thread on VansAirforce about the electric fuel pump 5 amp fuse blowing as a result of low battery voltage. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=160595 I would have attributed the blown fuse to some other cause, except that two pilots reported the same symptoms on two different aircraft. The fuel pump is Facet part number 40105. According to Aircraft Spruce, that pump draws 1 amp. I measured the current draw on my spare pump (same make and model) at 3/4 amp with a light load. When I connected a 6 volt battery to the pump instead of 12 volts, the pump quit working and the current dropped to about 1/2 amp. I do not have a power supply with adjustable voltage output. Does the current draw for a DC pump motor actually increase as the voltage decreases? And even if it did, which I doubt, the current would have to increase by a factor of 5 in order to blow the fuse. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480282#480282 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:23:20 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? From: "user9253" I called it a pump motor but, judging by the sound, the Facet 40105 is more likely to be a solenoid that operates a piston. It is advertised as solid state, which probably refers to the pulsing control circuit. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480283#480283 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:03 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OV sensing in Z-12 At 05:25 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: >Well, I'm starting to question my powers of analysis (or at least my >memory). While pondering OV protection with dual alternators (using >something less expensive than the B&C units), I perused drawing >Z-12. Should I assume that the aux alternator must be left disabled >until needed? It appears that having both alts on line would result >in both OV protection circuits firing, if either alt had an OV event. The B&C SB-1 controller features automatic enabling of the standby alternator upon failure of the main alternator . . . along with an annunciator system to notify the pilot of the event. One COULD use a more generic controller and forego up the auto switching/annunciation feature. You still need low voltage annunciation. If you get a light, you turn the main alternator OFF; the standby alternator ON. The B&C products do feature 'selective trip' . . . a circuit that deduces whether or not the client alternator is the source of the ov event. But with only one alternator operating at any time, plain vanilla ov protection will function as desired. >What I'd like to achieve (alternative engine with auto style engine >control) is both alternators (identical capacity) operating all the >time, with OV protection taking out only the bad alternator. Why two alternators ON at the same time? Making the transition from main to s/b alternator is not a 'tense' event. If the main alternator quits, you can finish your cup of coffee and fold the map up before you start flipping switches. The auto-change and annunciation were features that were more bells-and-whistles designed to tickle the fancy of A36 drivers and Beech engineers. It was easy to do as we wanted to monitor b-lead current on the SD20 and enable easy load shedding. If you're wanting to run two full sized alternators, then I would agree that the SB-1 if a bit of over-kill. If it were my airplane, they would be alternator #1 and #2 and swap back and forth in preflight. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:36 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV sensing in Z-12 At 06:25 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >Charlie, >I agree that both over-voltage modules would trip simultaneously. >Options: >1. Like you said, only turn on one alternator at a time. I like that . . . >2. Insert diodes 747-DSA300i45NA in the alternator B leads and >connect the over-voltage protection upstream of each diode. >3. Monitor the current on each B lead. In an over voltage >condition, shut off only the alternator that is putting out the >highest current. This option requires the design of an electronic circuit. Achhh! . . . Joseph . . . go wash your mouth out with soap. You go to bed without your Oreos and milk . . . Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:43:23 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? At 06:54 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: > >There is a recent thread on VansAirforce about the electric fuel >pump 5 amp fuse blowing as a result of low battery voltage. >http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=160595 >I would have attributed the blown fuse to some other cause, except >that two pilots reported the same symptoms on two different >aircraft. The fuel pump is Facet part number 40105. According to >Aircraft Spruce, that pump draws 1 amp. I measured the current draw >on my spare pump (same make and model) at 3/4 amp with a light >load. When I connected a 6 volt battery to the pump instead of 12 >volts, the pump quit working and the current dropped to about 1/2 >amp. I do not have a power supply with adjustable voltage >output. Does the current draw for a DC pump motor actually increase >as the voltage decreases? And even if it did, which I doubt, the >current would have to increase by a factor of 5 in order to blow the fuse. Hmmmm . . . that's a strange one. Those pumps are strange creatures that don't behave like what we would expect of a motor driven device. The 'thumping' noise is a piston being magnetically driven to compress a spring. The piston is hollow and has check valves in each end. The 'power stroke' compresses the spring and reduces pressure on the inlet side. Fuel is forced past the inlet check valve filling the piston. At the end of the power pulse, spring pressure works to return the piston to its resting position, increasing pressure on the fuel which closes the inlet valve and opens the outlet valve. Spring force and piston motion pushes fuel out of the pump. Emacs! Output pressure is purely a function of spring force. Output flow is purely a function of how much flow leaves the pump at the calibrated pressure. The spring, piston volume and pulse rate are adjusted to produce the desired MAXIMUM flow at a pressure not exceeding that which is established by the spring. Hence, blocking the outlet off completely does not increase current draw . . . in fact, the energy consumed by the pump is relatively constant whether or not the device has fuel moving through it. To have one of these devices draw an extra-ordinary current value suggests a fault in the pump power feeder or a shorted winding in the pump's stroke motor. I would troubleshoot by (1) replacing the pump. I've measured energy consumption with agile data acquisition systems that deal with the very intermittent nature of current flow. It's difficult to get a 'reading' with ordinary hand held instruments . . . but you can get a general sense of magnitude with an analog ammeter. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:38 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: OV sensing in Z-12 From: "user9253" I can handle the soap in my mouth. But I am NOT going to bed without my Oreos and milk! -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480287#480287 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:16:57 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? From: "user9253" Bob, Thanks for the reply and explanation about how the pump works. I had neglected to mention that the fuel pump fuse blows during engine cranking. I do not think that makes any difference to the pump, other than causing a voltage sag. I measured the current draw of my spare pump with an analog Simpson 260. I am as mystified as you. Unfortunately the plane is located hundreds of miles away. All I have to go by is second hand information. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480288#480288 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:47 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? From: "user9253" Bob, Thanks for the reply and explanation about how the pump works. I had neglected to mention that the fuel pump fuse blows during engine cranking. I do not think that makes any difference to the pump, other than causing a voltage sag. I measured the current draw of my spare pump with an analog Simpson 260. I am as mystified as you. Unfortunately the plane is located hundreds of miles away. All I have to go by is second hand information. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480290#480290 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:53 PM PST US From: ashleysc@broadstripe.net Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? Hi Joe; Try hooking up a 9 volt lantern battery. These are very handy for trouble-shooting and represent about the lowest your starter (and fuel pump) might see while cranking the engine. So you can see what happens without actually cranking. Cheers! Stu. ----- Original Message ----- From: "user9253" Sent: Monday, May 21, 2018 4:54:02 PM Subject: AeroElectric-List: Low Battery Voltage Blows Fuel Pump Fuse? There is a recent thread on VansAirforce about the electric fuel pump 5 amp fuse blowing as a result of low battery voltage. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=160595 I would have attributed the blown fuse to some other cause, except that two pilots reported the same symptoms on two different aircraft. The fuel pump is Facet part number 40105. According to Aircraft Spruce, that pump draws 1 amp. I measured the current draw on my spare pump (same make and model) at 3/4 amp with a light load. When I connected a 6 volt battery to the pump instead of 12 volts, the pump quit working and the current dropped to about 1/2 amp. I do not have a power supply with adjustable voltage output. Does the current draw for a DC pump motor actually increase as the voltage decreases? And even if it did, which I doubt, the current would have to increase by a factor of 5 in order to blow the fuse. -------- Joe Gores Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480282#480282 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:46 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Tested my spark again to-day with the Neon spark plug tester. With the Shower of sparks disconnected I could not see a flash in the neon but it was in very bright light. With the Shower of Sparks connected I could see a very strong flash in the neon bulb, assumed all is good. Will attempt first engine start in the next few weeks and wiil report back Thanks again Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectr ic-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: May 17, 2018 8:52 PM Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Mike: You are quite welcome. Did you notice how long the spark lasted? Way longer than just a Mag spark. Easy test. Barry On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 11:19 PM, > wrote: Thank you very much for the help, The spark plug test light worked like a charm, thanks for the good idea Keep well Mike From: owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-aeroelectric-list-server@matro nics.com ] On Behalf Of FLYaDIVE Sent: May 15, 2018 6:05 PM > Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Shower of Sparks Mike: To test the Shower Of Sparks - Disconnect the Starter. You can do this easily by pulling the control wire to the Starter Relay. This way you can activate the Shower Of Sparks (SOS) and LISTEN for the BUZ Z and SAFELY not have to worry about a spinning prop. You can also remove the spark plug wire from each of the spark plugs. Do you want to check out the Mag and the Spark Plug wires as well as the SO S? If so here is another TRICK! Go to a automotive store and get the Clear Plastic Spark Plug test light... It has a Neon bulb inside. You hook up the test light to the wires. Re-Connect the control wire on the starter relay and CRANK AWAY. You will see a longer time duration to the spark than if there was NO SOS. And, it will be a nice bright light. Again as compared to a standard Impuls e Mag. On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:32 PM, > wrote: ision499.com> > I have installed a LOM engine with a Shower of Sparks, 1. How long can I safely keep the unit on (buzzing) while testing it =8BBarry - I never had a over heating problem. I would guess and eas y Minute.=8B 2. When I turn the motor over and ground the plug to the engine what type o f spark or sparks should I expect. =8BBarry - A standard Blueish Spark of Longer Duration.=8B 3. Are there any other tests that I can perform. =8BBarry - See above. =8BBest of Luck,=8B Barry=8B Thanks Mike --- Virus-free. www.avast.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:28 PM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: OV sensing in Z-12 From: Charlie England On 5/21/2018 7:47 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote: > At 05:25 PM 5/21/2018, you wrote: >> Well, I'm starting to question my powers of analysis (or at least my >> memory). While pondering OV protection with dual alternators (using >> something less expensive than the B&C units), I perused drawing Z-12. >> Should I assume that the aux alternator must be left disabled until >> needed? It appears that having both alts on line would result in both >> OV protection circuits firing, if either alt had an OV event. > > The B&C SB-1 controller features automatic enabling > of the standby alternator upon failure of the main > alternator . . . along with an annunciator system > to notify the pilot of the event. > > One COULD use a more generic controller and > forego up the auto switching/annunciation feature. > > You still need low voltage annunciation. If you get > a light, you turn the main alternator OFF; the standby > alternator ON. > > The B&C products do feature 'selective trip' . . . a > circuit that deduces whether or not the client > alternator is the source of the ov event. But > with only one alternator operating at any time, > plain vanilla ov protection will function as desired. > > >> What I'd like to achieve (alternative engine with auto style engine >> control) is both alternators (identical capacity) operating all the >> time, with OV protection taking out only the bad alternator. > > Why two alternators ON at the same time? Making > the transition from main to s/b alternator is > not a 'tense' event. If the main alternator quits, > you can finish your cup of coffee and fold the > map up before you start flipping switches. The > auto-change and annunciation were features that > were more bells-and-whistles designed to tickle > the fancy of A36 drivers and Beech engineers. > It was easy to do as we wanted to monitor b-lead > current on the SD20 and enable easy load shedding. > If you're wanting to run two full sized alternators, > then I would agree that the SB-1 if a bit of over-kill. > > If it were my airplane, they would be alternator #1 > and #2 and swap back and forth in preflight. > > > Bob . . . > No disagreement on your points. What's driving my thought exercise is the attempt to integrate my very different engine subsystem and have the a/c operationally function as close as is reasonably possible to 'traditional' operation with a conventional mags & carb Lyc. I already have the engine bus fed directly from the battery through a high current switch, independent of the a/c master contactor, and tentatively, one alternator feeding there, as well. The other alt feeds the load side of the master contactor (typical tie point). I'm probably overthinking this, as usual... Thanks, Charlie --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message aeroelectric-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/AeroElectric-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/aeroelectric-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.