---------------------------------------------------------- AeroElectric-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/05/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:02 AM - Re: gps and alternator. (bob noffs) 2. 05:12 AM - Re: How to Wire My Alternator (C&K) 3. 07:31 AM - Re: How to Wire My Alternator (FLYaDIVE) 4. 08:31 AM - Re: How to Wire My Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 5. 09:22 AM - Re: How to Wire My Alternator (Art Zemon) 6. 09:54 AM - Re: How to Wire My Alternator (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 7. 12:54 PM - Library opportunity (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) 8. 02:12 PM - Re: gps and alternator. (Dave Hurd) 9. 06:07 PM - Re: Re: gps and alternator. (Robert L. Nuckolls, III) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:59 AM PST US From: bob noffs Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: gps and alternator. correct like charlie said.......fwf, on a shelf at top of firewall under the top of cowl. bob Virus-free. www.avast.com <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:04 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > =9CI have a really easy place to mount my gps antennas under the co wl=9C.... > > My bad: I interpreted that as =9Con the bottom surface of the cowl facing > downwards=9D :/ > Which, to be fair, would work just fine for whole lot of other antennas.. .. > > On Jun 4, 2018, at 21:41, Charlie England wrote: > > ceengland7@gmail.com> > > Alec, > > Are we on the same page? The proposal is not *under* the cowl. It's > *inside* the cowl, on a shelf, mounted to the firewall just under the *to p* > of the cowl. Cable would go through the firewall, like other electrical > stuff. > > Charlie > > > On 6/4/2018 7:09 PM, Alec Myers wrote: > > > > > The PCB, traces, ground planes and assorted electronic components insid e > the antenna module package and under the antenna element sure aren =99t > transparent. > > Is Bob planning to mount it with the cable entry at the bottom and rout e > the coax outside the cowl? > > > > > > > > On Jun 4, 2018, at 10:14 AM, Ernest Christley > wrote: > > > > A fiberglass cowling is practically transparent to GPS signals. > > > > > > On Saturday, June 2, 2018 5:13 PM, Alec Myers > wrote: > > > > > > But a GPS antenna needs a good view of the sky. They=99re usually mounted > on top of the aircraft, not under it. > > > > On Jun 2, 2018, at 16:21, bob noffs wrote: > > > > thanks, good news ernest. > > bob > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Ernest Christley > wrote: > > The frequency that GPS works at is so far above anything the alternator > produces, I can't imagine them ever being able to cross talk. > > > > > > On Saturday, June 2, 2018 8:56 AM, bobnoffs wrote: > > > > > > > > hi all, > > i have a really easy place to mount my gps antennas under the cowl but > they would be within 4' of the alternator. will i be asking for trouble? > > thanks, > > bob noffs > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:38 AM PST US Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire My Alternator From: C&K It also *looks* like it could even be one of the millions of old externally regulated ND units so you might be able to confirm the field coil connections with an ohmeter. I have one here that brought out both sides of the field to the 3 pin connector IIRC. Usually there is a data plate with a part number that can be googled. Regardless before or after getting it to work, I would consider taking it apart to confirm good brushes and slip rings, and probably put in new bearings before I'd fly it. Ken On 04/06/2018 11:27 PM, Charlie England wrote: > On 6/4/2018 9:40 PM, Art Zemon wrote: >> I need help. I bought a used engine and it came with an alternator >> that has no labels that I can find. How do I hook it up? >> >> Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A1A >> >> Alternator: looks like this: >> >> >> Back of the alternator has three Faston tabs and what looks like a >> screw terminal next to them: >> >> >> I bought a B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator and ran the field wire to >> one of the Faston tabs. I have confirmed that I do have voltage at >> the alternator end of the wire. However, with the engine off, my EFIS >> does not show any current draw when I turn on the primary alternator. >> When I run the engine, the primary alternator does not produce any >> current. >> >> I also have a B&C standby alternator with its B&C voltage regulator. >> That one works just fine. With the engine off, I see it's field draw >> about 0.5 amps. With the engine running, the standby alternator pumps >> out plenty of amps which the EFIS nicely displays. >> >> How should I connect the primary alternator? And what is it? >> >> Thanks, >> -- Art Z. >> > That *looks* like one of the early internally regulated alternators. > If I'm right, it needs to see 12V on the 'I' (or 'IG', for Ignition) > terminal to 'turn on'. I'm attaching a drawing (let me know if it > doesn't come through) of a similar alternator. the 3 pin shell is > shaped differently, but I believe that the pinout is the same. On the > rather primitive electrical system I had, the IG pin was simply jumped > to the B lead terminal. Not advising you to operate it that way, but > you can test for operation by doing that. If you jump from B lead to > IG, start the engine, and get ~14V out on the B lead, then you have an > internally regulated alternator. > > Note that I might be wrong; be sure none of your avionics are > connected when you do this test.... > > Charlie > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > > > <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:19 AM PST US From: FLYaDIVE Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire My Alternator Art: That is a Automotive Alternator. Not an Automotive Alternator that is used on a certified aircraft. The give-away is two (2) things: 1 - The alternator has the plug-in socket which indicates it has a BUILT IN voltage regulator (ACU). 2 - The fan blades are facing the wrong direction. Side Note: The Tension Adjustment Bolt is not Safety-Wired. Since you have easy access to the alternator PULL it and take it to an Automotive Part Shop and have them test it. My bet is it will work, but NOT with a second ACU (plane's), since it has one built in. Barry On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 10:40 PM, Art Zemon wrote: > I need help. I bought a used engine and it came with an alternator that > has no labels that I can find. How do I hook it up? > > Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A1A > > Alternator: looks like this: > > > Back of the alternator has three Faston tabs and what looks like a screw > terminal next to them: > > =8B > I bought a B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator and ran the field wire to one of > the Faston tabs. I have confirmed that I do have voltage at the alternato r > end of the wire. However, with the engine off, my EFIS does not show any > current draw when I turn on the primary alternator. When I run the engine , > the primary alternator does not produce any current. > > I also have a B&C standby alternator with its B&C voltage regulator. That > one works just fine. With the engine off, I see it's field draw about 0.5 > amps. With the engine running, the standby alternator pumps out plenty of > amps which the EFIS nicely displays. > > How should I connect the primary alternator? And what is it? > > Thanks, > -- Art Z. > > -- > https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ > > *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:35 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire My Alternator At 09:40 PM 6/4/2018, you wrote: >I need help. I bought a used engine and it came with an alternator >that has no labels that I can find. How do I hook it up? > >Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A1A > >Alternator: looks like this: > > >Back of the alternator has three Faston tabs and what looks like a >screw terminal next to them: > >I bought a B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator and ran the field wire to >one of the Faston tabs. I have confirmed that I do have voltage at >the alternator end of the wire. However, with the engine off, my >EFIS does not show any current draw when I turn on the primary >alternator. When I run the engine, the primary alternator does not >produce any current. >I also have a B&C standby alternator with its B&C voltage regulator. >That one works just fine. With the engine off, I see it's field draw >about 0.5 amps. With the engine running, the standby alternator >pumps out plenty of amps which the EFIS nicely displays. > >How should I connect the primary alternator? And what is it? Unless you have specific information that speaks to a modification of this alternator, it's prudent to assume that it's a stock, internally regulated alternator. It would NOT benefit from the addition of an LR3C until it is modified to bypass the internal regulator and bring the field leads out for interface with the LR3C. This is essentially what B&C does with stock ND alternators to make them more 'aircraft friendly'. You may choose to run the stock alternator . . . indeed a large number of OBAM aircraft are flying stock automotive machines. The only risk, albeit a small one, is that these alternators have an internal failure mode that produces an uncontrollable voltage runaway condition. The foundation philosophy for the B&C and PlanePower products adopts a legacy notion developed in TC aviation over the past century or so. (1) ALL energy sources in the system are provide with positive, crew operable controls. (2) no failure mode for control of alternator output is allowed to run 'barefoot'. An independent monitor/shutdown system is supplied that ALSO has positive control over field excitation of the alternator. Stock automotive alternators do not have such features . . . which prompts purveyors of automotive alternators to make suitable modifications. You an modify the alternator you have to accept the attentions of the LR3C. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:01 AM PST US From: Art Zemon Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire My Alternator Bob, Thanks for the explanation. Since I have no idea the age of this alternator or the condition of is brushes or bearings, I am just going to replace it. I've built an all-electric panel. The last thing I want is an overvoltage situation to zap a critical component of the EFIS. Cheers, -- Art Z. On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:30 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III < nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote: > At 09:40 PM 6/4/2018, you wrote: > > I need help. I bought a used engine and it came with an alternator that > has no labels that I can find. How do I hook it up? > > Engine: Lycoming IO-360-A1A > > Alternator: looks like this: > > > Back of the alternator has three Faston tabs and what looks like a screw > terminal next to them: > > I bought a B&C LR3C-14 voltage regulator and ran the field wire to one of > the Faston tabs. I have confirmed that I do have voltage at the alternator > end of the wire. However, with the engine off, my EFIS does not show any > current draw when I turn on the primary alternator. When I run the engine, > the primary alternator does not produce any current. > > > I also have a B&C standby alternator with its B&C voltage regulator. That > one works just fine. With the engine off, I see it's field draw about 0.5 > amps. With the engine running, the standby alternator pumps out plenty of > amps which the EFIS nicely displays. > > How should I connect the primary alternator? And what is it? > > > Unless you have specific information that > speaks to a modification of this alternator, > it's prudent to assume that it's a stock, > internally regulated alternator. It would > NOT benefit from the addition of an LR3C > until it is modified to bypass the internal > regulator and bring the field leads out > for interface with the LR3C. > > This is essentially what B&C does with > stock ND alternators to make them more > 'aircraft friendly'. > > You may choose to run the stock alternator . . . > indeed a large number of OBAM aircraft are > flying stock automotive machines. The > only risk, albeit a small one, is that > these alternators have an internal failure > mode that produces an uncontrollable > voltage runaway condition. > > The foundation philosophy for the B&C and > PlanePower products adopts a legacy notion > developed in TC aviation over the past > century or so. (1) ALL energy sources in the > system are provide with positive, crew operable > controls. (2) no failure mode for control > of alternator output is allowed to run 'barefoot'. > An independent monitor/shutdown system > is supplied that ALSO has positive control > over field excitation of the alternator. > > Stock automotive alternators do not have > such features . . . which prompts purveyors > of automotive alternators to make suitable > modifications. > > You an modify the alternator you have to > accept the attentions of the LR3C. > > Bob . . . > -- https://CheerfulCurmudgeon.com/ *"We do not see the world as it is. We see the world as we are."* ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:54:33 AM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: How to Wire My Alternator At 11:21 AM 6/5/2018, you wrote: >Bob, > >Thanks for the explanation. Since I have no idea the age of this >alternator or the condition of is brushes or bearings, I am just >going to replace it. I've built an all-electric panel. The last >thing I want is an overvoltage situation to zap a critical component >of the EFIS. Understand and agree. Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:02 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: AeroElectric-List: Library opportunity While researching another task, I stumbled across a nicely written textbook on electronics that is part of the Sabre/BookAid projects for the worldwide sharing of information. Any technowienies out there that would like to expand/brush-up their skills in herding electrons are are invited to visit https://goo.gl/414U8J for a library of down-loadable documents from the AeroElectric.Com The book is "Practical Electronics Handbook 6th Edition" Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:22 PM PST US Subject: AeroElectric-List: Re: gps and alternator. From: "Dave Hurd" First time responder, so please excuse my fat fingers..... Put a mounting bracket high in the engine compartment of the Glasair just forward of the firewall, as I had seen an RV-8A builder do with his GPS antenna - (fiberglass cowling on the RV.) Over 220 hours on the airplane including 3 IFR round trips from just east of Buffalo to Central Florida. No problems with the WAAS at all. The autopilot (and sometimes yours truly) can shoot LPV approaches right down to 200 or 250 foot decision heights. The only caveat is to be sure the paint that goes on the cowling has no metal in it. Some really slick looking paints have tiny metal flakes that make them look great, but I'm told can mess up reception if the GPS antenna is inside the cowling. Heat has not been a problem, and difficulty picking up satellites low on the horizon has never been an issue. Just guessing here, but the "geometry" of such sources would seem to be less useful to the receiver than a source higher in the sky. Also have an Aspen which has it's own GPS receiver. If I recall the installation instructions for that unit, it indicated an internal location for the antenna would be OK in a plastic airplane, but there would not be a source for outside air temp, which it uses for TAS calculations. So I mounted it on the outside top of the cabin, just aft of the doors. Dave [quote="bobnoffs"]correct like charlie said.......fwf, on a shelf at top of firewall under the top of cowl. bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480693#480693 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:14 PM PST US From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: gps and alternator. At 04:11 PM 6/5/2018, you wrote: > >First time responder, so please excuse my fat fingers..... > >Put a mounting bracket high in the engine compartment of the Glasair >just forward of the firewall, as I had seen an RV-8A builder do with >his GPS antenna - (fiberglass cowling on the RV.) > >Over 220 hours on the airplane including 3 IFR round trips from just >east of Buffalo to Central Florida. No problems with the WAAS at >all. The autopilot (and sometimes yours truly) can shoot LPV >approaches right down to 200 or 250 foot decision heights. > >The only caveat is to be sure the paint that goes on the cowling has >no metal in it. Some really slick looking paints have tiny metal >flakes that make them look great, but I'm told can mess up reception >if the GPS antenna is inside the cowling. > >Heat has not been a problem, and difficulty picking up satellites >low on the horizon has never been an issue. Just guessing here, but >the "geometry" of such sources would seem to be less useful to the >receiver than a source higher in the sky. > >Also have an Aspen which has it's own GPS receiver. If I recall the >installation instructions for that unit, it indicated an internal >location for the antenna would be OK in a plastic airplane, but >there would not be a source for outside air temp, which it uses for >TAS calculations. So I mounted it on the outside top of the cabin, >just aft of the doors. > >Dave Dave, Welcome to the List . . . and thank you for the data dump. The best prophylactic against ol' pilot's tales and hangar lore is demonstrable experience! Thanks for sharing. 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