Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:56 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Ken Ryan)
2. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
3. 09:04 AM - Re: Rotax Charging System (user9253)
4. 09:34 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 09:37 AM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Sebastien)
7. 10:39 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Sebastien)
8. 10:46 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Ken Ryan)
9. 11:00 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Sebastien)
10. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Rotax Charging System (Sebastien)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Joe,
Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following
statement:
"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next
failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."
I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output (low,
medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the
regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it
(regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that adding a
regulator capable of handling higher output would simply mean that the
regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree with the poster's
statement? I am interested because I replaced the "Rotax regulator"
(actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
Ken
On Sat, Jun 9, 2018 at 6:11 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The most likely problem is the voltage regulator.
> Read this thread, especially post number 6 by Mike Miller.
> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t487
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480762#480762
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
At 09:54 AM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
>Joe,
>
>Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following statement:
>
>"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next
>failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."
>
>I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output
>(low, medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the
>regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it
>(regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that
>adding a regulator capable of handling higher output would simply
>mean that the regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree
>with the poster's statement? I am interested because I replaced the
>"Rotax regulator" (actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
>
>Ken
It kind of depends on the cause for original failure.
The PM/RR power systems are not as gently current
limited as their wound-field cousins on cars. Further,
the PM alternators are not as easily cooled . . . they
tend to be tightly enclosed with respect to air movement.
The Rectifier/Regulator products) for which I'm privy
to schematics) do not include electronically derived
current limiting.
Given these two conditions, both the alternator
and rectifier regulator are subject to the effects
of over heat brought on by sustained overloading.
Overloaded operations can be realized by any
combination of system loads and battery
recharging loads. Assuming that the designer
has not inadvertently expected too much from
the alternator to run electrowhizzies, then
battery recharge demands from a badly dischared
battery might just stack on top of each other
for an interval long enough to smoke something.
The Ducatti rectifier-regulator supplied with
Rotax 9xx engines has been notoriously weak in
the knees. There have been numerous rectifier-
regulators with more robust designs, Silent
Hektik being a noteworthy example.
The statement in question has some validity
in that a builder that has suffered multiple
Ductatti failures may indeed suffer alternator
failures after upgrading the rectifier-regulator.
This is because failures due to persistent overloading
will open the weakest link in the chain . . . in
the original case, a Ducatti R-R. Beef up that
link and a different link may become vulnerable.
The prophylactic against such failures is
crew implementation of current limiting with
the aid of an alternator loadmeter.
Emacs!
I've got a couple dozen of these instruments left over
from the AEC9007 days. These can be paired with an appropriate
shunt to show read time loads on the PM/RR system.
Emacs!
Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
the departure runway.
Bob . . .
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Ken,
While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do disagree
with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can damage alternator
windings. But the total current is determined by the load, not by the regulator.
I do not think that the Silent Hektik regulator will stress the alternator
any more than the Ducati regulator.
Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap John Deere
regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8" aluminum because
the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat conductive grease on both sides
of the mounting plate. A thermocouple attached to the John Deere regulator
measured a maximum temperature of 157 degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
>
> Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
> be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
> the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
> the departure runway.
I was remiss in the omission of a second
prophylactic which is load analysis confirmed
by experience which shows the PM/RR system is not
going to be overtaxed by predicted, normal
operations. If you have verified that normal
ops loads are within system ratings, then
failures can be assumed to be caused by
abnormal conditions like lack of regulator
robustness, attempting to recharge a really
depleted battery during flight ops, shorted
cell in battery, etc.
Bob . . .
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe |
Grounds
At 09:21 PM 6/9/2018, you wrote:
>I've always had various levels of alternator and
>strobe noise in my audio system, and have never
>been able to track down and eliminate the
>problem. Today I was flying lots of short hops
>in the warm weather, sweating more than usual,
>and I noticed an interesting clue.
>
>The noise got much louder when I touched the
>metal part of the push/pull throttle control. So
>then I tried the mixture, and prop controls,
>same thing. Then I tried the ceiling-mounted
>aluminum elevator trim wheel (which doesn't
>connect to the engine, of course), same thing.
>Touching the screws that hold the instrument
>panel in place, or the aluminum air vent in the
>panel did not generate the noise.=C2
>
>I'm not really sure where the circuit path is in
>this case. The headset only makes contact with
>me through insulators like the leather ear seal
>covers and the furry pad at the top. My shoes
>have rubber soles, and seat upholstery is the
>only other thing I'm in contact with.
>
>Has anyone encountered this before, and figured
>out what was causing it? It almost reminds me of
>being able to make noise by pointing my fingers
>near the heated windshield of some old plane I
>flew once. Sort of a windshield theremin
Have you run the traps on seeking to discover
at what point noise is entering the system?
What volume controls or switches have an
effect on the noise you hear? What does
your audio system look like? Stereo phones?
Bob . . .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will
replace the Ducati?
Thank you
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ken,
> While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do
> disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can
> damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the
> load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik
> regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
> Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap
> John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8"
> aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat
> conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple
> attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157
> degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Just looking at the Silent Hektik website and it seems to say that it
regulates between 13 and 14.2 V. Wouldn't this be totally inappropriate
(way too low) for lead acid and especially AGM batteries? Or can it be set
anywhere from 13 to 14.2? 14.2 still wouldn't be ideal for Odyssey but it
is within their specs.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 8:53 AM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <
nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 09:54 AM 6/10/2018, you wrote:
>
> Joe,
>
> Regarding the link you posted on Van's, it ends with the following
> statement:
>
> *"Installing a higher output (non Rotax) regulator may shift the next
> failure to another component, maybe the alternator $tator coil$."*
>
> I don't understand how this could be. I thought that the output (low,
> medium, high, etc) was determined by the dynamo, and that the
> regulator-rectifier merely took what it was given and transformed it
> (regulate) into what the 12v system needs. I further thought that adding a
> regulator capable of handling higher output would simply mean that the
> regulator would be stressed more lightly. Do you agree with the poster's
> statement? I am interested because I replaced the "Rotax regulator"
> (actually Ducati) with the Silent Hektik.
>
> Ken
>
>
> It kind of depends on the cause for original failure.
> The PM/RR power systems are not as gently current
> limited as their wound-field cousins on cars. Further,
> the PM alternators are not as easily cooled . . . they
> tend to be tightly enclosed with respect to air movement.
>
> The Rectifier/Regulator products) for which I'm privy
> to schematics) do not include electronically derived
> current limiting.
>
> Given these two conditions, both the alternator
> and rectifier regulator are subject to the effects
> of over heat brought on by sustained overloading.
>
> Overloaded operations can be realized by any
> combination of system loads and battery
> recharging loads. Assuming that the designer
> has not inadvertently expected too much from
> the alternator to run electrowhizzies, then
> battery recharge demands from a badly dischared
> battery might just stack on top of each other
> for an interval long enough to smoke something.
>
> The Ducatti rectifier-regulator supplied with
> Rotax 9xx engines has been notoriously weak in
> the knees. There have been numerous rectifier-
> regulators with more robust designs, Silent
> Hektik being a noteworthy example.
>
> The statement in question has some validity
> in that a builder that has suffered multiple
> Ductatti failures may indeed suffer alternator
> failures after upgrading the rectifier-regulator.
>
> This is because failures due to persistent overloading
> will open the weakest link in the chain . . . in
> the original case, a Ducatti R-R. Beef up that
> link and a different link may become vulnerable.
>
> The prophylactic against such failures is
> crew implementation of current limiting with
> the aid of an alternator loadmeter.
>
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> I've got a couple dozen of these instruments left over
> from the AEC9007 days. These can be paired with an appropriate
> shunt to show read time loads on the PM/RR system.
>
>
> [image: Emacs!]
>
> Sort term operations at or above 100 percent would
> be okay, like to recharge a battery that has started
> the engine and then supported electrowhizzies out to
> the departure runway.
>
> Bob . . .
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Thx Bob and Joe.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will
> replace the Ducati?
>
> Thank you
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Ken,
>> While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do
>> disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can
>> damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the
>> load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik
>> regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
>> Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap
>> John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8"
>> aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat
>> conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple
>> attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157
>> degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
>>
>> --------
>> Joe Gores
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ===================================
>> -
>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell the
difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator is
$12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first line
of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find for an
obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged wire. Give
each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You should be
able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire pretty much
as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no problem).
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thx Bob and Joe.
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will
>> replace the Ducati?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Ken,
>>> While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do
>>> disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can
>>> damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the
>>> load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik
>>> regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
>>> Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a cheap
>>> John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8"
>>> aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat
>>> conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple
>>> attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157
>>> degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
>>>
>>> --------
>>> Joe Gores
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> -
>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.
>>> matronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Rotax Charging System |
Whoops, sorry all, wrong address for the last email.
On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
> If it's the easy failure then great but I really don't know how to tell
> the difference between a gen failure and a regulator failure. My regulator
> is $12 so I keep a spare and would just swap that out. I guess your first
> line of attack should be as you said: inspect all the wiring you can find
> for an obvious break / bad ground / short / loose connector / unplugged
> wire. Give each PIDG connector a strong pull to see if it comes apart. You
> should be able to hold the connector in one hand and pull the other wire
> pretty much as hard as you can (it should support a 50 pound pull no
> problem).
>
> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Ken Ryan <keninalaska@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thx Bob and Joe.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:35 AM Sebastien <cluros@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe, do you have a part number for the John Deere regulator that will
>>> replace the Ducati?
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ken,
>>>> While I have great respect for Mike M. and admire his knowledge, I do
>>>> disagree with that ending statement. Heat caused by high current can
>>>> damage alternator windings. But the total current is determined by the
>>>> load, not by the regulator. I do not think that the Silent Hektik
>>>> regulator will stress the alternator any more than the Ducati regulator.
>>>> Two years ago I replaced the Ducati regulator in my RV-12 with a
>>>> cheap John Deere regulator from eBay. I made an adapter plate using 1/8"
>>>> aluminum because the mounting holes did not line up. I used heat
>>>> conductive grease on both sides of the mounting plate. A thermocouple
>>>> attached to the John Deere regulator measured a maximum temperature of 157
>>>> degrees Fahrenheit on a 90+ degree day.
>>>>
>>>> --------
>>>> Joe Gores
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>>
>>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480768#480768
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> -
>>>> Electric-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mat
>>>> ronics.com/Navigator?AeroElectric-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
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