Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 09:04 AM - Question on Z-14 System (Rocketman1988)
2. 09:28 AM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Eric M. Jones)
3. 11:19 AM - Re: Question on Z-14 System (Robert Reed)
4. 11:36 AM - Re: Question on Z-14 System (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
5. 12:27 PM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
6. 01:02 PM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Jared Yates)
7. 01:57 PM - Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Ken Ryan)
8. 03:12 PM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
9. 03:13 PM - Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
10. 03:46 PM - Sequence for bringing alternators on line. (Sebastien)
11. 04:26 PM - Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (user9253)
12. 04:39 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Ernest Christley)
13. 05:18 PM - Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (user9253)
14. 05:34 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (GTH)
15. 06:13 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Ken Ryan)
16. 06:28 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Lyle Peterson)
17. 07:08 PM - Re: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. (user9253)
18. 09:56 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
19. 09:59 PM - Re: Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) (Robert L. Nuckolls, III)
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Subject: | Question on Z-14 System |
I am planning on the Z-14 system in my RV-10. I have dual alternators, dual batteries,
electronic ignition, and electronic fuel injection (Dual EFII System).
Looking at the schematic, it appears that ECU 1 / Fuel Pump 1 would be on the main
battery bus and ECU 2 / Fuel Pump 2 would be on the aux battery bus.
This arrangement means power is always available to those items, even when the
battery masters are OFF.
I am planning on fuel pump ON/OFF switches and could also switch the individual
ECU power lines.
Anyone (maybe Bob?) care to weigh in on this arrangement?
Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480820#480820
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds |
Reposted from a few years ago, but this might help.
EDN of 23NOV1995 had an article entitled: "Assume nothing. Test everything." which
was a small guide to troubleshooting philosophy (although aimed more at computers
and high falutin designs but applicable to life in general).
He (Jack Ganssle) taught some critical elements of troubleshooting that have helped
me over the years. Allow me to share some of them them with you:
1) EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG. I.e. Assume nothing. Is it really connected like
you think? Are your measuring instrument working? Etc. To facilitate this process-->
2) Keep a notebook of what you are doing, what you suspect, random suspicions,
sketches, details, notes for later improvements, hard-to-read numbers, EVERYTHING.
When you review your notebook the next day, important clues will often jump
out.
3) Start with an organized workbench with all tools at the ready. What are you
going to need to test assumptions?
4) Ask for help. Don't be shy! Anybody can help by listening to your explanation...where
the obvious might jump out.... Asking experts is how you'll learn, even
if they don't have the answer.
5) Use the Internet. Hardly a day goes by without someone asking me a question
and I reply (or would like to reply) "Let me Google that for you".
Google has developed the ability to understand plain language questions. The value
of searching the 'net cannot be overstated. And it will only get better.
6) Remember, most problems have simple answers. Think "Connectors" not Integrated
Circuits. Think "Horses" not Zebras.
We can all add tips to this list.
I ould also add my paper on Dabbling with Electricity.
--------
Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480821#480821
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/dabbling_with_electricity_a_135.pdf
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Subject: | Re: Question on Z-14 System |
I am using the same configuration with each of the two power buses on guard
ed switches and powering only the ECI and Fuel Pumps.=C2- My original con
figuration was using the FADEC system but have replaced with the Dual FlyEf
ii system.
Bob Reed
From: Rocketman1988 <Rocketman@etczone.com>
To: aeroelectric-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2018 11:05 AM
Subject: AeroElectric-List: Question on Z-14 System
.com>
I am planning on the Z-14 system in my RV-10.=C2- I have dual alternators
, dual batteries, electronic ignition, and electronic fuel injection (Dual
EFII System).
Looking at the schematic, it appears that ECU 1 / Fuel Pump 1 would be on t
he main battery bus and ECU 2 / Fuel Pump 2 would be on the aux battery bus
.
This arrangement means power is always available to those items, even when
the battery masters are OFF.
I am planning on fuel pump ON/OFF switches and could also switch the indivi
dual ECU power lines.=C2-
Anyone (maybe Bob?) care to weigh in on this arrangement?
Thanks!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480820#480820
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=C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- =C2- -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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Subject: | Re: Question on Z-14 System |
At 11:04 AM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
><Rocketman@etczone.com>
>
>I am planning on the Z-14 system in my RV-10. I have dual
>alternators, dual batteries, electronic ignition, and electronic
>fuel injection (Dual EFII System).
>
>Looking at the schematic, it appears that ECU 1 / Fuel Pump 1 would
>be on the main battery bus and ECU 2 / Fuel Pump 2 would be on the
>aux battery bus.
>
>This arrangement means power is always available to those items,
>even when the battery masters are OFF.
>
>I am planning on fuel pump ON/OFF switches and could also switch the
>individual ECU power lines.
>
>Anyone (maybe Bob?) care to weigh in on this arrangement?
That's the idea. Electrically dependent engine
accessories driven from battery busses are avaiable
even when the electrical system(s) are shut down . . .
as in case of smoke in the cockpit. The only
operational concerns to explore are potential
difficulties if BOTH primary and secondary
accessories are energized at the same time.
Had a Z-14 builder some years back with dual
ECU's sthat would argue with each other if
energized at the same time. We arranged for a
little lockout mechanism that prevented a
BOTH on at the same time. There was no hazard
for having other dual accessories energized
at the same time.
We machined the lock out of a piece of 1/2"
aluminum. It mounted between the two ECU
switches on a single screw.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe |
Grounds
At 08:44 PM 6/11/2018, you wrote:
>Thanks for your help Bob. It's a 4-place airplane with stereo
>panel-powered Lemo jacks, parallel two-plug jacks (all isolated from
>the airframe) and a PS Engineering PAR100EX audio panel/intercom. In
>the past I've played with the volume controls but didn't think to
>try it out on this most recent flight. In the past, the noise was
>reduced when I turned down the intercom volume level, or the local
>headset level on the Bose X.
Okay, the fact that intercom volume has
an effect suggests that the noise is getting
in upstream of the intercom. The "touch
sensitivity" is suggestive of a possible
poor or even floating ground in the
upstream wiring.
Downloaded the manual . . . do you have
the remotely controlled comm transceiver?
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe Grounds |
Yes, and also a gns430w and skyview system.
On June 12, 2018 15:39:16 "Robert L. Nuckolls, III"
<nuckolls.bob@aeroelectric.com> wrote:
> At 08:44 PM 6/11/2018, you wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your help Bob. It's a
>> 4-place airplane with stereo panel-powered Lemo jacks, parallel two-plug
>> jacks (all isolated from the airframe) and a PS Engineering PAR100EX
>> audio panel/intercom. In the past I've played with the volume controls
>> but didn't think to try it out on this most recent flight. In the past,
>> the noise was reduced when I turned down the intercom volume level, or
>> the local headset level on the Bose X.
>
>
> Okay, the fact that intercom volume has
> an effect suggests that the noise is getting
> in upstream of the intercom. The "touch
> sensitivity" is suggestive of a possible
> poor or even floating ground in the
> upstream wiring.
>
> Downloaded the manual . . . do you have
> the remotely controlled comm transceiver?
>
>
> Bob . . .
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Subject: | Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
There is a respected member of a popular Rotax list asserting that the
Ducati regulator can be harmed by too little load. I don't believe this to
be true, and it interests me directly because my wiring architecture has
the regulator, under normal conditions, supplying only my primary fuel pump
(it can be tied to the main bus if necessary). To those of you familiar
with the Ducati regulator, is there any truth in the assertion that a light
load is bad for it?
Ken Ryan
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe |
Grounds
At 03:01 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>Yes, and also a gns430w and skyview system.
Just for grins . . . try unplugging the
data cable between the intercom/controll
panel and the remote transceiver . . . and
see if the noise is affected.
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Re: Alternator Noise When Touching Metal Airframe |
Grounds
At 03:01 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>Yes, and also a gns430w and skyview system.
Just for grins . . . try unplugging the
data cable between the intercom/controll
panel and the remote transceiver . . . and
see if the noise is affected.
Oh yeah, are you sure it's alternator whine . . .
pitch rises and falls with engine rpm?
Bob . . .
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Subject: | Sequence for bringing alternators on line. |
I am writing checklists for a new homebuilt I will be doing the flight
testing on. Aircraft has a 40A main alternator and an SD-8 backup
alternator. The alternator switch allows either the main or backup
alternator to be on and also has an off position. I'm thinking of leaving
the switch on the main alternator all the time, except for a test of the
SD-8 during the runup. Does anyone see a problem with this plan or should I
wait until the load on the electrical system has come down to a certain
point before switching to the SD-8? As far as I know the SD-8 will put out
whatever it can and any load in excess will simply come from the battery.
Is it reasonable to test the SD-8 every flight or is this something that
can be done on a monthly or quarterly basis? Also I have run into a couple
pilots recently who start their engines with the alternator off in order to
"prevent damage to the alternator during start". I can't remember any
mention of this in the AEC. Is there any basis for this? Should I turn the
alternator off before shutdown and then on after startup?
I have attached the main electrical system diagram for the aircraft in
question.
Thank you,
Sebastien
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
I am on your side Ken. Roger should should reference the schematic and the laws
of physics to explain why too little of a load can damage the rectifier/regulator.
The greater the current, the greater the heat. A small load will result
in less heat.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480834#480834
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
Some regulators "regulate" by dumping the excess power generated by the gen
erator.=C2- They dump the power by shorting it to ground.=C2- A direct
short would be a weld, so the regulator stands in the middle and acts as a
heater.=C2- If there is no load on the electrical system, the regulator i
s being heated by everything the generator can put out.
But, really, it is a poor engineer that could not have anticipated and and
properly designed for that eventuality.=C2- Of course, the proper design
may have been to install it in the exact position on the motorcycle that th
ey designed it to be install in (with its accompanying blast air).
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 7:27 PM, user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
I am on your side Ken.=C2- Roger should should reference the schematic an
d the laws of physics to explain why too little of a load can damage the re
ctifier/regulator.=C2- The greater the current, the greater the heat.=C2
- A small load will result in less heat.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480834#480834
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
Agreed. Some regulators regulate by adding a parallel resistance to short out
excess current.
Some regulators regulate by adding a series resistance to limit the current.
Some regulators regulate by turning the output on and off rapidly. The ratio between
the on time and the off time controls the average current.
The Ducati is the on-off type. It does not waste as much heat as the first two
types. But it still gets very warm due to IR losses. The greater the load,
the greater the heat.
--------
Joe Gores
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480836#480836
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
Le 13/06/2018 01:25, user9253 a crit:
>
> I am on your side Ken. Roger should should reference the schematic and the laws
of physics to explain why too little of a load can damage the rectifier/regulator.
The greater the current, the greater the heat. A small load will result
in less heat.
>
Hi all,
I'll second that.
In the 15-18 past years we have been seeing lots of opinions about the
Rotax rectifier/regulator, but unfortunately very few hard data by
people who actually conducted experiments.
To date I am not aware of any data in addition to those we obtained
during our build, a short report of which can be seen here on Contrails !
http://contrails.free.fr/elec_ducati_en.php
More accurate versions of my schematics have been published since, but
no further bench tests have been reported.
FWIW
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
Thank you Joe and Ernest.
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:32 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am on your side Ken. Roger should should reference the schematic and
> the laws of physics to explain why too little of a load can damage the
> rectifier/regulator. The greater the current, the greater the heat. A
> small load will result in less heat.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480834#480834
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
Thinking, and that for me is dangerous.
The alternator in a Ducati or similar system is not controlled. It's
output is dependent on its RPM. I have two Honda motorcycles that use
the same type of system. To test the alternator one checks the output
voltage from each of three windings. The expected voltage is in the
range of 45 to 70 volts on each winding. When the vehicle system is not
demanding any output from the rectifier/regulator the alternator output
must go somewhere. It is converted to heat. Heat is the enemy of
electronics.
I may be way out in left field on this but it makes some sense to me.
I have one failure of the charging system on my Hondas. It was the
regulator. My wonderful wife brought the car so we could put a little
charge in the battery. It took two or three charges to get home. I
miss that lady so much. This would be hard to do with an airplane.
Lyle
On 6/12/2018 8:12 PM, Ken Ryan wrote:
> Thank you Joe and Ernest.
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:32 PM user9253 <fransew@gmail.com
> <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> <fransew@gmail.com <mailto:fransew@gmail.com>>
>
> I am on your side Ken. Roger should should reference the
> schematic and the laws of physics to explain why too little of a
> load can damage the rectifier/regulator. The greater the current,
> the greater the heat. A small load will result in less heat.
>
> --------
> Joe Gores
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=480834#480834
>
>
> ==========
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Subject: | Re: Sequence for bringing alternators on line. |
The two relays and starter contactor should all have diodes just like the battery
contactor does. Connect banded end of diodes to positive.
Can the start switch handle the start contactor coil current? Or is the E-123
Relay necessary?
--------
Joe Gores
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
At 07:18 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
Agreed. Some regulators regulate by adding a parallel resistance to
short out excess current.
nobody does that any more . . . VERY inefficient. The
silicon controlled bridge rectifier, series control
rectifier=regulator is teh gold standard. Ducatti is
but one example.
https://goo.gl/yYYeM5
Some regulators regulate by adding a series resistance to limit the current.
Not even sure how that would be done . . . ever see a
schematic?
Some regulators regulate by turning the output on and off
rapidly. The ratio between the on time and the off time controls the
average current. The Ducati is the on-off type. It does not waste
as much heat as the first two types. But it still gets very warm due
to IR losses. The greater the load, the greater the heat.
This kind-of describes the full-wave bridge
circuit cited above. The 'duty cycle' management
is rather coarse. The SCR's are triggered on the
UPswing of the AC waveform any time the bus is
perceived to be below setpoint. But unlike series
switches controlled by precision comparators, the
silicon controlled rectifier or triac will not . . .
indeed cannot be shut off until the AC waveform
goes to zero. So while there is some discrimination
for siwtch-on delay after zero crossing, the critter
stays 'locked' on until the next zero crossing
irrespective of instantaneous bus votlage.
Since this can happen as rapidly as every few
milliseconds, any raggedness in regulation value
is small and insignificant. Here are some typical
ripple profiles off an SD8 Dynamo under various
conditions.
https://goo.gl/tLDCSu
Except for the more 'advanced' full wave bridge
rectifier-regulators using MOS-Fets, I believe
that any rectifier-regulator rated for more than
5A or so will be VERY similar to the Ducatti
schematic cited.
Bob . . .
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Ducati Regulator (too little load) |
At 08:27 PM 6/12/2018, you wrote:
>Thinking, and that for me is dangerous.
>
>The alternator in a Ducati or similar system is not controlled.
Agreed . . . the alternator output is proportional
to engine rpm but the rectifier-regulator is
a 'gated' device that disconnects the alternator
from the bus on a cycle-by-cycle basis, hence
its output IS managed for the purpose of charging
batteries and running electrowhizzies . . .
Bob . . .
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